"Go and sin no more"

[Adullam]

You misunderstand Paul and the Gospel.

God said through Paul just after his testimony in chapter 7. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This same freedom Jesus talked about in John 8 He said,"Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (In bondage too.)
And the servant (sinner) abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. His flesh.
Condenming it to death on the cross in His flesh. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity (sin) captive, and gave gifts unto men. For ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. For it was not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged of sin they should have had no more conscience of sins. The inner man should of been changed.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. A figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience (the inner Man);
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.The reforming of the inner man.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption (freedom from the bondage of sin) for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge (cleanse) your conscience (the inner man)from dead works (acts that lead to death. Sin, For the wages of sin is death) to serve the living God?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, For what cause?

To cleanse the inner man so we can serve the Living God.

What is the new testament? It is the fulfilment of the New covenant.

For God hath said, for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. For it is I which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. This is and was only Possible through the cleansing blood of Jesus. We had to be cleansed and purged of the old Man. For God hath said,"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.".

If we sin it is because we want to or have not received the repentance which is from God. Not because we can't live without sinning. But we are right With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Greater is he that is in us than he that is in this world. For it is God that worketh in us both to will and do His good pleasure. As God hath said, I will dwell in them and walk in them; for we are the temple of the living God. Therefore there hath no temptation taken us but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer us to be tempted above that we are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that we may be able to bear it.
And that way is through His Spirit. The power that we have available to us as the Body of Christ. God's Holy Temple.
Have Faith. Ask and we will receive. Knock and it will be open to us.
Ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Continue to Pray. Let us not doubt in our hearts, but believe that those things which we saith shall come to pass; and we shall have whatsoever we saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever we desire, when we pray, believe that we receive them, and we shall have them.
Jesus said unto us, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to them that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
So how does one combat unbelief? As with any temptation. Prayer and With a hardy thus saith the Lord!!
Jesus are example, when tempted in the wilderness meet each temptation with a," Get behind me Satan, It is written".
So when we are tempted and as we tarry here waiting on the Lord we can meet each avenue in life and each temptation with the same mind set. Through God’s Holy Spirit.

Very good...although I would change the word "reformation" (the reforming of what is already there) to "transformation" (something new added). !!!!

 

[Adullam]

Re: Old and the New

Excellent commantary imo..

I certainly see Romans 7 as a very 'real' and factual condition of the Christian life.. and imo, one of the reasons why this might be hard to understand is because of the dual nature of the Christian life..

The OLD MAN and the NEW MAN..

When a person is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit of God, they have CHRIST birthed in them, in their frail earthen vessel.. we are told that our old man is crucified with Christ and that we can now walk in newness of life because of the Spirit of Christ which is in us... and although our old man is to be reckoned (considered) dead in a positional sense.. he remains very much within us in a practical sense.. Paul makes this obvious in teaching that we are to PUT OFF this old man who IS (not was) corrupt according to deceitful LUSTS..

IMO a problem arises because many think that God is making us (the old man) better.. but he is not.. our old man IS corrupt, and he always will be.. we're carrying him around with us and he often gets the best of us.. BUT that old man (our Adamic nature) is never going to change, he is never going to improve in any way.. and this is why we're to reckon him dead..

SIN can only reign in our OLD NATURE, it cannot reign in CHRIST.. the new man, that's impossible.. and when a Christian realizes this vital truth, then it's a matter of who we choose to serve so to speak... will it be our old man who is corrupt or will it be the new man who is created in us in righteousness and true holiness..

It's not Christ AND me.. it's CHRIST IN ME.. that's our hope of glory.

Good words bro!!

 

[smaller]

CHRIST in us cannot be influenced by the god of this world.. and He is already PERFECT.. there's never a need to make our new man better because it can't get any better than CHRIST IN YOU.. our only need is to agree with God in that He alone is good and that we can do all things through HIM..

Infinitely easier said than lived..

I think that another problem is that many do not believe that Satan is currently the god of this present evil world.. but that imo is a scriptural fact which cannot be denied.. and we should be able to see that Day approaching.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as a thief in the night, as travail upon a woman with child..

Amazing times..

Your summary was fairly decent E. Fairly. Acknowledgement/realization that our individual temples are factually subjected to the intrusion of entities that are not US as Gods children, that placing then this usurper IN the temple is at first a little unsettling to digest. Most simply have not contemplated the 'gravity' of that matter as that same spirit that works against Christ tends to lull or put one to 'sleep' when it crosses this threshold of fact. It is a quantifiable working, that spirit of slumber. That spirit can not allow it's stronghold to be 'found out.' That is in fact how God made that spirit. To both resist and to cover the minds of people. It's quite strange actually, but it IS a reality, once seen. If a believer comes to grips with this matter, which is admittedly very difficult to acknowledge, the text itself does take on an entirely different dynamic and we can SEE GOD as our Ally, yet The Opposer of that other working. We also know then 'why' JUDGEMENT begins at the House of The Lord and we 'know why.' Because of that other PRESENCE that we factually carry. There is no coverups or subtleties available, period. Nor is there ANY excusing of that other working, EVER, as it applies to the DEMONIC intrusion.

Every one of us then stands in a two fold position. I do not 'blame' anything on the old man. The old man was a pathetically blinded pawn of Satan. It is not the old man that violates, but SATAN in the TEMPLE is surely thee violator, period.

God not only requests, but DEMANDS that we owe our entire allegiance in our individual temples only TO HIM, To God in Christ, and not one crumb to the other party. Where some may perceive me stubborn on some matters, I know WHO I am working against in dialog or engagements of life. Understanding we carry the other operator allows a person to see this scripture entirely differently for example:

2 Thes. 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The 'man of sin' is revealed, right here in this thread to any God leads to SEE. Only God in Christ can bring this reality to us. Otherwise the other party will BLOCK out that information and that too is by Gods Choice. No man can 'free' himself on this matter. Only God in us can 'make it real.' To look TRUTHFULLY upon our hearts. Truth must be in the TEMPLE to LOOK.

The man of sin, that is SATAN, factually sits in the temples of each of us VIA TEMPTATION thoughts, trying to RULE our TEMPLES.

This makes me very very angry at that working. Yet simultaneously, once seen, the process of DESTRUCTION begins to take shape as the WAR is ON within.

There, the battle begins. And there we have all as a CHURCH and A BODY have been both divided and defeated. By not being HONEST. God demands TRUTH in His Temples. Truth is, a usurper is within. We must be led to come to grips with this matter or we wallow in separations, not only from other believers, but from God in Christ. We become HYPOCRITES. The very actors that God in Christ resisted and hated. Why? Because there is a 'pretender' in the temple seeking to SLIP IN the cracks, and that is not going to happen.

This is a personal matter for 'every temple' of God to come to grips with. If you see this personally for example, you will know a lot more about 'The Word,' how He worked in the past and also in the present. For example this is the exact reason why GOD SOUGHT TO KILL MOSES. Because of the 'usurper' in the temple/body of Moses. None of us in this regard are 'more righteous' than any other person. We are to know our factual internal condition, and to eat the humble pie on this matter,

to be TRUTHFUL, OR BE BLINDED.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

You misunderstand Paul and the Gospel.

God said through Paul just after his testimony in chapter 7. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I'm very sorry, but if your claim is that the tempter does not tempt you in MIND, this placing that tempter then within your mind, you are not being honest with me as a believer. That's where this conversation stops with me. Temptation thoughts of SIN are SIN, period.

All such claims of NON-temptation are OPEN FALSEHOODS. Lies.

s

 

[Eventide]

Every one of us then stands in a two fold position. I do not 'blame' anything on the old man. The old man was a pathetically blinded pawn of Satan. It is not the old man that violates, but SATAN in the TEMPLE is surely thee violator, period.

I'm not sure if 'blame' is the word for this.. imo it's that we're guilty before God...

Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived in the garden.. and I believe that this means that he was disobedient to the commandment... and that this represents all in Adam.. that we're not only subjected to the deception of Satan, but that we have also been disobedient 'ourselves' so to speak.. it's not just that the devil made me do it.

God not only requests, but DEMANDS that we owe our entire allegiance in our individual temples only TO HIM, To God in Christ, and not one crumb to the other party. Where some may perceive me stubborn on some matters, I know WHO I am working against in dialog or engagements of life. Understanding we carry the other operator allows a person to see this scripture entirely differently for example:

2 Thes. 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The 'man of sin' is revealed, right here in this thread to any God leads to SEE. Only God in Christ can bring this reality to us. Otherwise the other party will BLOCK out that information and that too is by Gods Choice. No man can 'free' himself on this matter. Only God in us can 'make it real.' To look TRUTHFULLY upon our hearts. Truth must be in the TEMPLE to LOOK.

The man of sin, that is SATAN, factually sits in the temples of each of us VIA TEMPTATION thoughts, trying to RULE our TEMPLES.

This makes me very very angry at that working. Yet simultaneously, once seen, the process of DESTRUCTION begins to take shape as the WAR is ON within.

There, the battle begins. And there we have all as a CHURCH and A BODY have been both divided and defeated. By not being HONEST. God demands TRUTH in His Temples. Truth is, a usurper is within. We must be led to come to grips with this matter or we wallow in separations, not only from other believers, but from God in Christ. We become HYPOCRITES. The very actors that God in Christ resisted and hated. Why? Because there is a 'pretender' in the temple seeking to SLIP IN the cracks, and that is not going to happen.

This is a personal matter for 'every temple' of God to come to grips with. If you see this personally for example, you will know a lot more about 'The Word,' how He worked in the past and also in the present. For example this is the exact reason why GOD SOUGHT TO KILL MOSES. Because of the 'usurper' in the temple/body of Moses. None of us in this regard are 'more righteous' than any other person. We are to know our factual internal condition, and to eat the humble pie on this matter,

to be TRUTHFUL, OR BE BLINDED.

enjoy!

s

While I can appreciate the living power of these scriptures in the sense that you're speaking of here.. the context is concerning a Christian being deceived into thinking that the Day of the Lord has already come.. when it hasn't.. and Paul is showing us that the working of Satan that is now present in this evil world.. will be utterly destroyed in that Day, when the LORD comes again in the brightness of His glory..

I can clearly see that Day approaching..

 

[smaller]

I'm going to share a very real account of 'temptation' in this thread. Some may find it unsettling, so you are warned in advance.

When I was 12 years old my parents, younger brother and I traveled north in the state I lived in to spend the weekend with my grandparents. They lived in a rural area, small town, very small house. Upstairs it was all open, with a couple double beds, a couple of single beds. My parents slept in one of the doubles, my brother and I in the singles.

It was pitch black in the room. Couldn't see a thing. My parents were snoring, horribly. So much so that I could not sleep at all. As I laid there in a half sleep zone I grew agitated with the noise. The more agitated I became, the louder their snoring became in my ears. So much so that I wanted them to just stop it, please. There came then a thought into my mind. A thought that I had never encountered before. Just take a knife from the kitchen and kill them! Oh my. Never had I had such a thought. I thought to myself, where is this thought coming from? Why am I having such a thought? I wanted the thought to stop. I didn't want to have that kind of a thought. It would not however stop. The more I tried to get the thought to stop, the harder it pressed in on my mind. The thought became a tangible pressure on my chest, almost as if it wanted to penetrate me and take me over. I knew that if I accepted that thought into my heart, it would own and control me.

Lying there in my bed I cried out to God, please, make this thought go away God. I can't handle this thought. Please, make it go away. I was in tears, there on my bed, with that thought. The tears were streaming down my face as this dilemma unfolded.

Almost instantly, the thought lifted off my mind. It was as if His Divine Hand just came down and TOOK it away. I fell almost instantly fast asleep. I woke the next day with zero remembrance of even having the encounter. Free as a happy kid, sun shining, on my merry way, so to speak. The event happening did not come back into my mind until I was in my mid twenties, after I came to know God in Christ in a most personal way. It was then God reminded me of the matter, and what He did for me then, in answering my childhood prayer, and how swiftly and effectively His Hand moved for me in relieving me of that vile thing. That PREDATOR of the MIND and HEART.

And after that remembrance, I have since encountered murderers. Real murderers. And I know from personal experience and exposure to that same working exactly what happened to them. That 'thing,' whatever it was that tried to attach itself to me, attached itself to them in some way, some form, some battle just as I had. And they lost that battle and were captured in their mind and heart, just as I knew I would have been captured. To this day this is how I see such captives, knowing that vile thing has enslaved their mind and heart. It is not 'just them' you see? You see? You may think you see, but until you 'see' what can't be seen you just don't know that it is not just them you are working with.

I have a great deal of respect for the viciousness that the god of this world brings to people. It is real, it is a factual anti-Christ working that can not be seen with eyes of flesh. But it is very very real.

And pity the person in whom such things enter and overtake. That thing, whatever it is, is merciless and does not care for the life of anyone or anything.

It is the power of death. It is the power of enslavement. And yes, it is real. It is NOT of MAN.

It is the anti-Christ spirit operational on this planet and within people in various forms. Some overt and easily spotted, like the encounter I had above. Some forms of these powers are much more subtle and deceptive. But those powers do exist and are spoken of throughout the text. They are quite predictable in their actions and movements once their patterns are shown to a person from the text. In believers who are liars for example, they will claim immunity, immunity from such thoughts. That is the spirit of the LIAR. IN some it will be some deviant twisted view of these exact matters, trying vainly to DEFLECT this fact from themselves and from their own minds. That is called 'the spirit of ERROR.'

The scriptures are meant for our exact armament against those workings, and against them we must be if He has called us.

If you have had no such engagements, consider yourself fortunate, but also consider that you may have forgotten those episodes as children where you were compelled to steal something or to hurt somebody. That too was a working of that power in you.

Consider your own encounters with these matters. You will find these forces to be a fact of life.

These forces are not 'of you.' But they ARE very much a reality.

I hope you gain an advantage from my sharing this. Sometimes I am ashamed to speak of such things. But it is a fact. And a fact I could not hide from my Maker if I desired His Helping Hands. I have no need for the spirit of A LIAR to be over my MIND.

The above spirit may have even been set upon me, that I would come to know HIS POWER over same. I certainly 'experienced' a very real delivery from that working. And a couple other attempts from other angles as well, subsequently that are even more vivid than the above. But you get the point I hope. There is no gain in milking out all the details other than to expose these things as scriptural and spiritual facts. And most importantly, not to LIE to ourselves about 'how rosy' our thought life is, as that is usually not the case for any warrior of God.

Life is not at all what it appears to be on a surface analysis. There are many things going on beneath a scratch and sniff on the surface. Jesus was not fooled by religious people who thought that because the outside of their cup was clean, they were then all OKEY DOKEY.

This is NOT the case for any of us.

s

 

[smaller]

I'm not sure if 'blame' is the word for this.. imo it's that we're guilty before God...

Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived in the garden.. and I believe that this means that he was disobedient to the commandment... and that this represents all in Adam.. that we're not only subjected to the deception of Satan, but that we have also been disobedient 'ourselves' so to speak.. it's not just that the devil made me do it.

There is no doubt to me what happened to Adam. It was exactly as Jesus said. Where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to steal, to deceive, to lie, to destroy.

You think I just see Adam in that equation? No. Seeing and blaming Adam or Eve is the sight of a blindman. It is the power of Satan in them wanting to blame and accuse ONLY MAN and to overlook his workings. Such sights are worthless.

Just as you would blame and accuse the old man, the Adamic nature, the ego, the flesh, the endless litany of everything else BUT THE DECEIVER is the exposure of that presence with that person. They just can't put their finger on the FACT of the DECEIVER and will hit every but but button, BUT that one.

It's a common malady. The devil made YOU DO NOTHING. The devil himself does however insert his thoughts into man and you can't do a thing about it. That's just a fact jack.

s

 

[Eventide]

There is no doubt to me what happened to Adam. It was exactly as Jesus said. Where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to steal, to deceive, to lie, to destroy.

You think I just see Adam in that equation? No. Seeing and blaming Adam or Eve is the sight of a blindman. It is the power of Satan in them wanting to blame and accuse ONLY MAN and to overlook his workings. Such sights are worthless.

Just as you would blame and accuse the old man, the Adamic nature, the ego, the flesh, the endless litany of everything else BUT THE DECEIVER is the exposure of that presence with that person. They just can't put their finger on the FACT of the DECEIVER and will hit every but BUT that one.

It's a common malady. The devil made YOU DO NOTHING. The devil himself does however insert his thoughts into man and you can't do a thing about it. That's just a fact jack.

s

I think that it's obvious that Satan is guilty and condemned before God.. although I also believe that we are guilty before God because of disobedience... again, not just deception and the devil made me do it sort of thing..

You do not see yourself (Mr smaller) as guilty before God..? Just the devil ?

 

[smaller]

I think that it's obvious that Satan is guilty and condemned before God.. although I also believe that we are guilty before God because of disobedience... again, not just deception and the devil made me do it sort of thing..

You do not see yourself (Mr smaller) as guilty before God..? Just the devil ?

You can see or excuse or deny these matters any way you are led to see them. I hold the devil no quarter. Not an inch. And I do not deny I have sin and temptation, which are of the devil. This is just a fact that I have to bring before God In Christ IN TRUTH if I expect victory.

The whole heart must be delivered before HIM.

No lying heart is going to receive anything from God no matter what claims are trotted out.

s

 

[smaller]

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Where is EVIL?

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Those who claim to have no such thoughts are in fact liars. They have the presence of a LIAR within them making such false claims.

This is the meat of EVIL:

Psalm 42:3
My tears have been my meat day and night, while they continually say unto me, Where is thy God?

That is the torment that evil brings. It says, NOW, where is YOUR GOD? Look at what 'we' can do to you.

I say to these powers, to the endless fire you will go.

Mark those Words of Him within your heart. They will stand.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

The answer is, they won't.

s

 

[Drew]

You misunderstand Paul and the Gospel.

God said through Paul just after his testimony in chapter 7. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.....

Well, yes and no, I think.

As you will know if you have been following this thread, I disagree with what smaller is saying about Romans 7 in particular.

But, I would agree with smaller about the following:

1. The Christian is indeed subject to the influences of the power of evil;

2. The power of evil is indeed an "external" force that can indeed invade the human person, and it should indeed be understood as having this "external agent" quality.

I may need to further explain myself, depending on other posts.

 

[Drew]

Re: Old and the New

Excellent commantary imo..

I certainly see Romans 7 as a very 'real' and factual condition of the Christian life..

I do not see how this is possible, for reasons argued in post 102:

1. The person in Romans 7 is described as enslaved to the law of sin and death;

2. The person in Romans 8, obviously a Christian, is set free from the law of sin and death.

So; Can you explain how a Christian is both enslaved and set free from the same state?

It is patently clear from the the text that the person in Romans 8 is delivered from the state that the person in Romans 7 is in.

So I do not see how it is possible to countenance the view that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian. I realize you have an argument about this in the rest of your post - I will address that shortly.

 

[Drew]

Re: Old and the New

IMO a problem arises because many think that God is making us (the old man) better.. but he is not.. our old man IS corrupt, and he always will be.. we're carrying him around with us....

I disagree - I see no Biblical evidence whatsoever of this "dual" state - one where the believer has the "old self" still "inside" him.

I would agree that the believer can choose to go back to the old state. But this is not the same as saying the believer exists in this schizophrenic condition where he is both "renewed" and "not renewed".

 

[Drew]

The old man (us), the new man (Christ), within the same lump of clay..

What Biblical evidence do you offer for this "dual" nature - that the old man and new man co-exist? I think the Biblical texts are against you here:

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you.

These texts are quite clear - there is no "old nature" after conversion. This does not mean that we are instantly perfect, but there is, I suggest, no Biblical case that there are "two natures" striving within us.

 

[Drew]

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Those who claim to have no such thoughts are in fact liars. They have the presence of a LIAR within them making such false claims.

You are begging the question as to whether Jesus is here talking about non-believers, believers, or all men. I suspect that, here at least, Jesus is talking about the "non-redeemed" person - the non-believer.

But let me be clear: I agree with you that the believer is subject to temptations from Satan. But please - you continue to make the same exegetical error, arguing that just because some texts describe the temptation of believers by Satan, all texts that describe the influence of evil on humans apply to the believer. This is simply incorrect logic.

We all need to remember that the believer has undergone a profound transition:

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

 

[smaller]

You are begging the question as to whether Jesus is here talking about non-believers, believers, or all men. I suspect that, here at least, Jesus is talking about the "non-redeemed" person - the non-believer.

But let me be clear: I agree with you that the believer is subject to temptations from Satan. But please - you continue to make the same exegetical error, arguing that just because some texts describe the temptation of believers by Satan, all texts that describe the influence of evil on humans apply to the believer. This is simply incorrect logic.

We all need to remember that the believer has undergone a profound transition:

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

You can make any claims you think you see Drew. The fact that the tempter inserts temptation thoughts of SIN in MIND places Satan 'in mind' and having access internally to the mind in order to do so. You can also claim that is not sin, but it IS SIN. Cover up the fact. Hide the fact. Ignore the fact. None of that changes the fact that it happens, what it is and whom it is from.

That's all the fact required to know.

Spin won't change fact. You are welcome to claim immunity from the obvious.

Doesn't matter to me one whit if you accept a fact or not.

s

 

[Fedusenko]

But, I would agree with smaller about the following:

1. The Christian is indeed subject to the influences of the power of evil;

2. The power of evil is indeed an "external" force that can indeed invade the human person, and it should indeed be understood as having this "external agent" quality.

God is influenced by the power of evil, too. He destroyed Sodom because of the evil in that city and three others. If the evil hadn't existed then he would not have done it.

 

[smaller]

God is influenced by the power of evil, too. He destroyed Sodom because of the evil in that city and three others. If the evil hadn't existed then he would not have done it.

The fact of 'evil present' with us is also the causes of our tribulations as believers.

God remains in contention against that working IN ALL.

s

 

[Fedusenko]

I still have a problem treating sin like a substance and not a choice. I don't see how I can sin and following Jesus at the same time. I don't know how God could allow rebellious beings into His kingdom. I don't see how responsibility is not tested in loving the Lord before entrance into eternal life. I can not reconcile how Jesus in the flesh can be tempted, yet not considered sinful or how Eve, perfectly made and righteous, can sin if sin was not in her previously the way popularly professed doctrines suggest about me. The doctrines don't add up.

5:21 but test everything; hold fast to what is good; 5:22 abstain from every form of evil.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Old and the New

I do not see how this is possible, for reasons argued in post 102:

1. The person in Romans 7 is described as enslaved to the law of sin and death;

2. The person in Romans 8, obviously a Christian, is set free from the law of sin and death.

So; Can you explain how a Christian is both enslaved and set free from the same state?

Because of the reasons which I have already stated.. that the Christian has a dual nature.. and it's simple to see if you're willing to answer a couple questions.. although if a person is not born again, then there would NOT be a dual nature because there would only be the Adamic nature.. ie, our flesh.

1. Are YOU a person, were you born naturally through your parents ?

2. Is Christ in you ?

NOW, is Christ the same as you.. ? Are the Flesh and the Spirit contrary to one another ?

It is patently clear from the the text that the person in Romans 8 is delivered from the state that the person in Romans 7 is in.

So I do not see how it is possible to countenance the view that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian. I realize you have an argument about this in the rest of your post - I will address that shortly.

Absolutely.. if Christ is in you, that's your hope of glory.. although the old man isn't getting any better and he remains condemned.