God and His Son

[Mounir]

Hi there,

My name is Mounir and I'm new to this forum. It's a pleasure to be on here and I'm definitely looking forward to having a beneficial discussion with other users.

I was born into a Muslim family, and have been Muslim since birth. Thankfully, I was never left to a bubble, vacuumed from reality, but rather I grew up learning how to be open-minded with others who shared different religious beliefs, etc, and I am grateful to my parents who knew right from wrong.

I've worked with Christians, done trade with Christians, held conversations with Christians, and from what I've seen so far, I really don't mind doing the same in the future.

In Islam, we believe God is one, His name is Allah. He has 99 attributes, but His supreme name is Allah. Now I know the concept of God Christians believe in may vary to the Islamic concept of God. However, putting aside the aspects of the belief that God does not have any partners nor a son, as compared to God having a son, we both believe that God is the creator, not a creation. We both believe He created everything, He is beginninglessly eternal, and has no end. He is the first and the last and is able to do all things without needing the permission or will of His creations. He is independent, and all His creations are dependent upon Him.

Now, the question that sparked my curiosity is: If God sent down His son to humanity, whilst asserting the Christian reasoning of this event, and that His son had died on the cross, would that make God himself vulnerable, and able for Him to die aswell?

Before we attempt this question, let's keep in mind that His son is part of Him, and if he is part of Him, then he is beginninglessly eternal without an end. However, His son was brought to an end. Would this cause a contradiction in the infinite and perfect (beyond our definition of perfection) attributes of God and the son that is part of Him. Otherwise, if we say that His son is not part of Him, then God must of created His son, and if we look to the rest of the creations, of the humans and the jin and the animals and the angels, where does that leave them?, in addition, God would have attributed to Himself a creation, i.e if He did create His son, which makes Him imperfect.

I look forward to reading your responses.

Kind regards,
Mounir

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Yeshua HaMashiach is Perfect and Always Was Perfect without beginning and never ending. Forever Past, AlwaYS WITH YHWH.
He humbled Himself beyond anyone's comprehension to be born a man. This is without being able to grasp the enormity of His willing humility. Also, HE WILLING GAVE UP HIS LIFE --- it could not be taken from Him --- when He breathed His last.
HE WILLINGLY chose to do this before anything was ever created -- He knew the absurdity of man and all of man's religions and all of man's ways before man existed.
So, while His death cannot be humanly understood, in His Perfect Divinity Forever, it is done. And Yhwh raised Him from the grave after three days and three nights, EXACTLY, as it is written, He will never die again. (and no one else is able in the littlest bit to offer eternal life to anyone, not even to themselves, at all. Only in Yeshua is there eternal life, and there is absolutely no other way possible at all.)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi there,

My name is Mounir and I'm new to this forum. It's a pleasure to be on here and I'm definitely looking forward to having a beneficial discussion with other users.

I was born into a Muslim family, and have been Muslim since birth. Thankfully, I was never left to a bubble, vacuumed from reality, but rather I grew up learning how to be open-minded with others who shared different religious beliefs, etc, and I am grateful to my parents who knew right from wrong.

I've worked with Christians, done trade with Christians, held conversations with Christians, and from what I've seen so far, I really don't mind doing the same in the future.

In Islam, we believe God is one, His name is Allah. He has 99 attributes, but His supreme name is Allah. Now I know the concept of God Christians believe in may vary to the Islamic concept of God. However, putting aside the aspects of the belief that God does not have any partners nor a son, as compared to God having a son, we both believe that God is the creator, not a creation. We both believe He created everything, He is beginninglessly eternal, and has no end. He is the first and the last and is able to do all things without needing the permission or will of His creations. He is independent, and all His creations are dependent upon Him.

Now, the question that sparked my curiosity is: If God sent down His son to humanity, whilst asserting the Christian reasoning of this event, and that His son had died on the cross, would that make God himself vulnerable, and able for Him to die aswell?

Before we attempt this question, let's keep in mind that His son is part of Him, and if he is part of Him, then he is beginninglessly eternal without an end. However, His son was brought to an end. Would this cause a contradiction in the infinite and perfect (beyond our definition of perfection) attributes of God and the son that is part of Him. Otherwise, if we say that His son is not part of Him, then God must of created His son, and if we look to the rest of the creations, of the humans and the jin and the animals and the angels, where does that leave them?, in addition, God would have attributed to Himself a creation, i.e if He did create His son, which makes Him imperfect.

I look forward to reading your responses.

Kind regards,
Mounir

Hi Mounir,

Thanks for your question, and I hope I can clear up some bits of Christian doctrine for you as it gets a little complicated. Teachings and doctrine can get a little complicated with Islam too such as the al Qada wal-Qada.

Your first question, as to whether or not Christ's death revealing God being vulnerable. The historical council of Chalcedon addresses this topic where they affirm that Jesus is truly man and truly God (some people say "fully" which can be confusing). That Jesus didn't cease to become divine, nor was their a mixture of his divine nature and human nature, but rather two independent natures. That means that when Jesus died on the cross, God did not die, but Jesus the man did. God himself is not vulnerable to death or decay.

Jesus is also not a part of God, the trinity is not as if the Father is 1/3 God, Jesus is 1/3 God, and the Holy Spirit is 1/3 God. God is 1 in essence and 3 in persons, it is not a contradiction because we do not say that he is 3 persons who are 1 person. God expresses himself as 3 persons who are of the same essence, they are distinct from one another and yet are one. They are co-equal and co-eternal (none of them were ever created) and yet are functionally subordinate in their relationship.

There certainly is an element of mystery to the nature of God, and I don't suppose it is simple and not complex. However, I believe that we should expect a God like this given the nature of who we are. We are first and foremost created for love and connection, that is why drives us and gives us purpose (even secular sources recognize this fact). Now if we had a God who was not triune in nature, and created all things he would have all power but not love. For love depends on the existence of another person. The God of the Bible being triune in nature IS love because he has always existed in perfect community in the Godhead, Father, Son and Spirit, and in the overflow and abundance of love created mankind in his image. That is why we seem to be created for love and affection, because we have been wired and purposed by the God who is love.

Hope this helps, and let me know if you have any more questions.

Regards,
DI

 

[WIP]

 

[tacdon]

Jesus did not come to an end he is alive in heaven.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Mounir,
I don' know if this is pertinent to this discussion or not but I'll just toss it out there for your consideration.
Please don't think that I know anything about Islam or what the Qu'ran teaches.

I have read that Muslim theologians have a hard time explaining the idea that Allah is eternal and that the Qur'an - Word is eternal, as well. They all agree that it is true, that they are both eternal, but that they cannot explain 'how' that can be.

So when considering a Christian's explanation of the Son, the Word manifested in the flesh, being the Father's Son, it may be rather the same as the problem the Muslim theologians have. We know it to be true but cannot explain completely 'how'.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Just as a Muslim who believes Allah's Word is eternal, I believe God's Word is eternal.
I believe that God caused the Word to be made flesh and that the Word always existed.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That's all I've got to share. May His light shine in your life.

 

[Butch5]

Hi there,

My name is Mounir and I'm new to this forum. It's a pleasure to be on here and I'm definitely looking forward to having a beneficial discussion with other users.

I was born into a Muslim family, and have been Muslim since birth. Thankfully, I was never left to a bubble, vacuumed from reality, but rather I grew up learning how to be open-minded with others who shared different religious beliefs, etc, and I am grateful to my parents who knew right from wrong.

I've worked with Christians, done trade with Christians, held conversations with Christians, and from what I've seen so far, I really don't mind doing the same in the future.

In Islam, we believe God is one, His name is Allah. He has 99 attributes, but His supreme name is Allah. Now I know the concept of God Christians believe in may vary to the Islamic concept of God. However, putting aside the aspects of the belief that God does not have any partners nor a son, as compared to God having a son, we both believe that God is the creator, not a creation. We both believe He created everything, He is beginninglessly eternal, and has no end. He is the first and the last and is able to do all things without needing the permission or will of His creations. He is independent, and all His creations are dependent upon Him.

Now, the question that sparked my curiosity is: If God sent down His son to humanity, whilst asserting the Christian reasoning of this event, and that His son had died on the cross, would that make God himself vulnerable, and able for Him to die aswell?

Before we attempt this question, let's keep in mind that His son is part of Him, and if he is part of Him, then he is beginninglessly eternal without an end. However, His son was brought to an end. Would this cause a contradiction in the infinite and perfect (beyond our definition of perfection) attributes of God and the son that is part of Him. Otherwise, if we say that His son is not part of Him, then God must of created His son, and if we look to the rest of the creations, of the humans and the jin and the animals and the angels, where does that leave them?, in addition, God would have attributed to Himself a creation, i.e if He did create His son, which makes Him imperfect.

I look forward to reading your responses.

Kind regards,
Mounir

Hi Mounir,

I think the New Testament answers your question, how can Jesus be God and die? The Son was begotten before creation. Every thing we read in the Scriptures about God interacting with man is speaking of the Son. Paul said, speaking of Jesus, that being in the form of God He emptied Himself. What did He empty Himself of? The form of God. John says that the Word, the Son became flesh. The word become means to change states or to be something that one wasn't before. Paul said that Jesus was man in all ways like we are. In other word, He became man. As a man He was subject to death. Emptying Himself of the form of God and becoming man made Him susceptible to death. I hope this helps answer your question.

 

[TOG]

Now, the question that sparked my curiosity is: If God sent down His son to humanity, whilst asserting the Christian reasoning of this event, and that His son had died on the cross, would that make God himself vulnerable, and able for Him to die aswell?

Hi, and welcome to the forums.

The Bible tells us that, before he was born, the Son of God was "in the form of God" (that is, he didn't have a physical body, but was spirit) and that he took on the "form of a servant" (i.e. flesh).

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 ESV)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1, 14)​

While he was in the form of a man and had flesh, Jesus' body was vulnerable to all the things our bodies are vulnerable to. But now that he no longer has a body of flesh, he is again spirit and can no longer die. Since God the Father has not taken on human flesh, He has never been vulnerable to death. It is not possible for God to die. That only applied to the body that the son temporarily took on.

Does that answer your question?

The TOG​

 

[clark thompson]

Jesus coming to die showed me He was strong and showed love.