GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless, was holy, and innocent before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies. I trusted the Word of God and what I was coming to see was indeed the building of this "so-great salvation" and the "working out of my own salvation" in my life. I hope there is something in this submission that the Lord uses to also build that "mansion" in your own life. So, in consideration of James 3:11, let me begin.

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God and the Commands of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on. We also learn early on that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory (of which Holiness, Righteousness, Omniscience, Omni-present, etc., are His glory) to NO ONE.

When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something – the dust of the ground, the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[Verse 50 is significant, as it is relevant to this post, but its inclusion will make this post very long to explain.]

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God who is heavenly (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology? ("theology" is a compound word from two Greek words: "theos" means "God," and "logy" comes from the word "logos," meaning "word" or "thought." Thus, put together means "Word of God."
So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, so does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing Adam (and us) that Adam was sinner before he disobeyed God:

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Applying what Paul taught about the existence of the Law in Romans 7:7, it would look like this:

ADAM: "What shall I say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law (or Command): for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Adam did bear the image of God in body, soul, and [human] spirit, a trichotomy. But he was also created of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]." He was a sinner BEFORE he disobeyed. Thus, he was created sin-ful.

1 Samuel 24:13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Sin [disobedience] comes from sinner, sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was Sinless, He did not sin. But the first man, who bore the image of the earthy (and not of 'heaven' as 1 Cor. 15:49 states), sinned.

He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

 

[Tenchi]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

Here's where your problems start. The root meaning of a word is not necessarily the meaning the word is actually conveying. Not only do words change in their meaning over time in every language, but context also may alter, or constrain, or give nuance to the meaning of a word. In any case, the author of a word or phrase is the Final Word on what a word they've used is actually intended to mean. In the case of Scripture, then, it isn't James Strong who decides what "sin" means but God, who is the Author of Scripture. And what does God say sin is?

1 John 3:4 (NASB)
4 ...sin is lawlessness.

Romans 14:23 (NASB)
23 ...whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 1:15 (NASB)
15 ...when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin...

James 4:17 (NASB)
17 ...one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

1 Corinthians 8:12 (NASB)
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

And so on. God has much more to say about what constitutes sin than merely "missing the mark."

The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

The glory of God's nature is the standard for what? Not our moral action. Sin has to do with morality, with obedience to God's laws, not with the gloriousness of His nature. See above.

In any case, this last post of yours just repeats rather than defends your erroneous views. But I suspect that you've had so little genuine testing of your thinking that you have nothing to offer in its defense but to repeat yourself. Unfortunately, just repeating error doesn't make it true.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Here's where your problems start. The root meaning of a word is not necessarily the meaning the word is actually conveying. Not only do words change in their meaning over time in every language, but context also may alter, or constrain, or give nuance to the meaning of a word. In any case, the author of a word or phrase is the Final Word on what a word they've used is actually intended to mean. In the case of Scripture, then, it isn't James Strong who decides what "sin" means but God, who is the Author of Scripture. And what does God say sin is?

1 John 3:4 (NASB)
4 ...sin is lawlessness.

Romans 14:23 (NASB)
23 ...whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 1:15 (NASB)
15 ...when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin...

James 4:17 (NASB)
17 ...one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

1 Corinthians 8:12 (NASB)
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

And so on. God has much more to say about what constitutes sin than merely "missing the mark."



The glory of God's nature is the standard for what? Not our moral action. Sin has to do with morality, with obedience to God's laws, not with the gloriousness of His nature. See above.

In any case, this last post of yours just repeats rather than defends your erroneous views. But I suspect that you've had so little genuine testing of your thinking that you have nothing to offer in its defense but to repeat yourself. Unfortunately, just repeating error doesn't make it true.

I've made my statements and the Scripture supports those statements.
I've covered much ground on the composition of the first man. He possessed NO ATTRIBUTES of God.
If he possessed just one: sinless innocence, holiness, perfect, etc., he would have to possess ALL attributes of God of he would fall short of the glory of God.
There is ONLY ONE PERSON who can stand before a Holy God.
A HOLY SON.

 

[Tenchi]

I've made my statements and the Scripture supports those statements.

You've made statements, yes. But you've mishandled Scripture pretty badly, actually and employed some pretty...odd reasoning to arrive at your conclusions. This is what happens, though, when you decide that you've got a special divine "anointing" that illuminates - and elevates - you over your fellow believers. Christianity has been going now for two millenia and there is nothing concerning orthodox biblical doctrine that you can discover that is new. For two thousand years, God has been teaching His children His truth and showing them how to walk in it. You come very late to the party, so to speak, and will only find something "new" in Scripture if you do as you've done and go off the rails of reason and proper Bible hermeneutics into "Spirit anointed" revelations.

I've covered much ground on the composition of the first man. He possessed NO ATTRIBUTES of God.

See? In order to make your case, you resort to these hyperbolic, Bible-contradicting statements which should indicate to you that you're off into the tulips doctrinally. God says in His word, that, in fact, human beings are made in His image, though not entirely, or perfectly; we do share in some of His attributes, despite what you've asserted.

There is ONLY ONE PERSON who can stand before a Holy God.
A HOLY SON.

And those, of course, who by faith in him are placed in him by the Holy Spirit and thus made acceptable to God.

In any event, your theory about people being born guilty of sin has not withstood scrutiny - especially in the light of God's word and simple Reason. Human beings are born with a "sin nature," that is, a nature inclined toward sinful selfishness, but until such time as they are capable of moral reasoning, they remain morally innocent and therefore not under God's just wrath - exactly like Adam and Eve were in Eden before the Fall.

 

[Free]

God created Elect angels and sinful angels. Elect angels maintained their sinless integrity by the power of God's Righteousness and the sinful angels sinned. This was a runner-up to the creation of Adam who was not holy.

At least you're consistent, even though there is no biblical support for your position.

God cannot transfer nor reduplicate His Nature in dirt.

And, yet, here we are, being renewed in the image of Christ, being sanctified by the Spirit, essentially regaining what was lost in the Fall.

The image of God is Christ. THAT'S WHO was created in His image, and all the new, born again believers who although not holy themselves await a new body that would complete the image God ordained for His people. Adam was dirt. There's NOTHING Deific about dirt. It is natural, God is supernatural. It is earthy, God is from heaven.

Adam and Eve were both created in the image and likeness of God. Gen 1:26-27 could not make that more clear. Jesus, on the other hand, was born in the likeness of men (Phil 2:5-8), not created, either as the eternal Son nor when he took on flesh.

Created matter is not holy, it falls short of the glory of God.

After the Fall, yes.

Only the Son can stand before a Holy God because the Son is Holy. Adam was not created holy.

And, yet, Adam and Eve were in God 's presence in the garden (Gen 3:8-23).

If he was, then he would also need to possess omniscience, omnipotent, all-wisdom, omnipresence and all the other deific nature and attributes of God or he would fall short of God's glory. You get it?

Your conclusion doesn't follow.

There is ONLY ONE GOD, not two (Adam).

That goes without saying.

Do you see Adam's lack? He sinned. SIN COMES FROM SINNER, sin does not come from holy.

Post-Fall, yes, but nothing you have given supports that notion pre-Fall.

Are you even trying to understand my post?

Of course. Are you trying to understand mine or anyone else's?

Here, on 'conflating Moses' Law:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression. Rom. 5:14.

It doesn't say "death reigned from Adam and his disobedience to Moses." It says from man to man who are named Adam and Moses. And death is sin and sin is death.

And this, too:

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom. 8:20–23.

There's a lot here. The creature was made (created) subject to vanity, not willingly but by God for His own purpose, if you will. BUT the creature (Adam) shall be delivered from that bondage of corruption when He calls His Elect people throughout history and finally creates them a NEW BODY in the twinkle twinkle of an eye (still future) THAT NEW PERSON IN CHRIST IS THE IMAGE OF GOD that He ordained when He created the man (Adam). He looked forward to that NEW CREATION in Christ when it says He created man in His image. Dirt can never behold the true image of God except in its trichotomy (body, soul, human spirit - NOT Holy Spirit, but human spirit, that attribute that after salvation allows us born again believers to process spiritual phenomenon and communicate with God WHO IS SPIRIT. Sure, God can communicate with man any way He wants but these truths are in Scripture and we are commanded to searech them out, to ask, seek, and knock.

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now..." Rom. 8:22.

It (creation and creature), groans and travails in pain together because of the law of entrophy. This basically means there is NOTHING IN CREATION THAT IS ETERNAL, only God is Eternal. Everything breaks down into chaos and degeneration. Even man (Adam). He wasn't holy, he was created sin-ful, or as the word is defined, "missing the mark."
What is that 'mark' Adam missed?

The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

Are you getting it now?

I believe I am. You have not provided any support to show that Adam was created sinful. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, including moral perfection and innocence, but they then were deceived into sinning, which has affected all of creation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You've made statements, yes. But you've mishandled Scripture pretty badly, actually and employed some pretty...odd reasoning to arrive at your conclusions. This is what happens, though, when you decide that you've got a special divine "anointing" that illuminates - and elevates - you over your fellow believers. Christianity has been going now for two millenia and there is nothing concerning orthodox biblical doctrine that you can discover that is new. For two thousand years, God has been teaching His children His truth and showing them how to walk in it. You come very late to the party, so to speak, and will only find something "new" in Scripture if you do as you've done and go off the rails of reason and proper Bible hermeneutics into "Spirit anointed" revelations.



See? In order to make your case, you resort to these hyperbolic, Bible-contradicting statements which should indicate to you that you're off into the tulips doctrinally. God says in His word, that, in fact, human beings are made in His image, though not entirely, or perfectly; we do share in some of His attributes, despite what you've asserted.



And those, of course, who by faith in him are placed in him by the Holy Spirit and thus made acceptable to God.

In any event, your theory about people being born guilty of sin has not withstood scrutiny - especially in the light of God's word and simple Reason. Human beings are born with a "sin nature," that is, a nature inclined toward sinful selfishness, but until such time as they are capable of moral reasoning, they remain morally innocent and therefore not under God's just wrath - exactly like Adam and Eve were in Eden before the Fall.

God controls the light a person let alone a generation receives in the revelation of His Word. The doctrine of the Trinity was in the Scripture, but God hid it until the Advent of the Son.
To say all has been 'discovered' and nothing is yet to be discerned is really a blind thing to say.
Tell me, what exactly is the mark of the beast? Why did Daniel say to shut up the words of his prophecy until the time of the end?
Is everything really discovered concerning this 'so-great salvation?'
Nope.

 

[jeremiah1five]

At least you're consistent, even though there is no biblical support for your position.


And, yet, here we are, being renewed in the image of Christ, being sanctified by the Spirit, essentially regaining what was lost in the Fall.


Adam and Eve were both created in the image and likeness of God. Gen 1:26-27 could not make that more clear. Jesus, on the other hand, was born in the likeness of men (Phil 2:5-8), not created, either as the eternal Son nor when he took on flesh.


After the Fall, yes.


And, yet, Adam and Eve were in God 's presence in the garden (Gen 3:8-23).


Your conclusion doesn't follow.


That goes without saying.


Post-Fall, yes, but nothing you have given supports that notion pre-Fall.


Of course. Are you trying to understand mine or anyone else's?


I believe I am. You have not provided any support to show that Adam was created sinful. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, including moral perfection and innocence, but they then were deceived into sinning, which has affected all of creation.

In a nut-shell...
Sin comes from sinner.
Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinner.
Sin does not come from holy.
The last Adam proves this.

 

[Free]

In a nut-shell...
Sin comes from sinner.
Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinner.
Sin does not come from holy.
The last Adam proves this.

The first Adam sinned because he was given the choice and was deceived, despite being made morally perfect and innocent. Everyone since then has sinned because of their fallen nature that resulted from Adam’s sin. The last Adam, as the God-man, didn’t sin because God can’t sin.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The first Adam sinned because he was given the choice and was deceived, despite being made morally perfect and innocent. Everyone since then has sinned because of their fallen nature that resulted from Adam’s sin. The last Adam, as the God-man, didn’t sin because God can’t sin.

If Adam was holy or possessed any Deific attributes of God he wouldn't have sinned either. But Adam possessed NO DEIFIC ATTRIBUTES of God and this rendered him sin-ful ["missing the mark"] of the glory of God. This also means he sinned because he was a sinner created fallen short of the glory of God. The Greek word is "sin."
Choice was important because he chose in accordance to his fallen, sin-ful nature. THAT'S WHY he sinned. Sin comes from sinner. Choosing to disobey God was part of his fallen nature. He chose sin because he was a sinner. That's the way he was created. By choosing to disobey God Adam chose in accordance to his sin-ful nature. There's no escaping it. The teaching in the church that God created Adam holy, or righteous, or innocent or any other noun to describe his creative makeup other than being created sin-ful is error.

 

[Tenchi]

God controls the light a person let alone a generation receives in the revelation of His Word. The doctrine of the Trinity was in the Scripture, but God hid it until the Advent of the Son.

And God has said to us in His word that all that He intends to reveal to us of Himself and His Truth is contained in His word, the Bible, in the Incarnation, Jesus Christ, and in Creation (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Revelation 22:18-19; Romans 16:25-27; Romans 1:19-20; Psalm 19:1). Until Christ returns, all further new revelation from, and of, God has halted.

To say all has been 'discovered' and nothing is yet to be discerned is really a blind thing to say.

But this isn't what I wrote, actually:

"...there is nothing concerning orthodox biblical doctrine that you can discover that is new."

See? You've mishandled and misrepresented my comments, just as you do God's word.

Tell me, what exactly is the mark of the beast?

All we need to know about it God has communicated to us in His word. In particular, it will be directly associated with worship of The Beast (Revelation 14:9). There won't be, then, any accidental taking of the Beast's mark by believers, which is why God will cast all who take it into the Lake of Fire.

Is everything really discovered concerning this 'so-great salvation?'

Everything we can, and need, to know about Christ our Salvation is revealed to us in God's word. All further revelation on par with the divine revelation we already have will only come at the second appearing of our Lord and Savior. It is the false teacher, then, who proclaims some "new revelation" from God, elevating themselves over the brethren by way of it, serving self-interest and pride, not God, and twisting, or even denying, God's Truth in the process.

 

[Free]

If Adam was holy or possessed any Deific attributes of God he wouldn't have sinned either. But Adam possessed NO DEIFIC ATTRIBUTES of God and this rendered him sin-ful ["missing the mark"] of the glory of God.

Really? So, essentially, to not be God or possess any "deific attributes" is to miss the mark? You might want to rethink that argument, as that is not the standard that God has set.

This also means he sinned because he was a sinner created fallen short of the glory of God. The Greek word is "sin."
Choice was important because he chose in accordance to his fallen, sin-ful nature. THAT'S WHY he sinned. Sin comes from sinner. Choosing to disobey God was part of his fallen nature. He chose sin because he was a sinner. That's the way he was created. By choosing to disobey God Adam chose in accordance to his sin-ful nature. There's no escaping it.

That's all begging the question.

The teaching in the church that God created Adam holy, or righteous, or innocent or any other noun to describe his creative makeup other than being created sin-ful is error.

Not at all and you haven't shown that to be the case.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And God has said to us in His word that all that He intends to reveal to us of Himself and His Truth is contained in His word, the Bible, in the Incarnation, Jesus Christ, and in Creation (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Revelation 22:18-19; Romans 16:25-27; Romans 1:19-20; Psalm 19:1). Until Christ returns, all further new revelation from, and of, God has halted.



But this isn't what I wrote, actually:

"...there is nothing concerning orthodox biblical doctrine that you can discover that is new."

See? You've mishandled and misrepresented my comments, just as you do God's word.



All we need to know about it God has communicated to us in His word. In particular, it will be directly associated with worship of The Beast (Revelation 14:9). There won't be, then, any accidental taking of the Beast's mark by believers, which is why God will cast all who take it into the Lake of Fire.



Everything we can, and need, to know about Christ our Salvation is revealed to us in God's word. All further revelation on par with the divine revelation we already have will only come at the second appearing of our Lord and Savior. It is the false teacher, then, who proclaims some "new revelation" from God, elevating themselves over the brethren by way of it, serving self-interest and pride, not God, and twisting, or even denying, God's Truth in the process.

You do see me making comment and posting Scripture to support my comment.
In whole there is no 'new revelation.' But for a new Christian who learns something new about his salvation isn't that 'new revelation' to him or her?