GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

If God has already planned who would be His own then what was the whole purpose of Christ's life, death and resurrection.

Even though God created man, yet Jesus being before the foundation of the world had His purpose in the world as God had all things planned out before hand. Do you think God would have known man would sin against Him? I would think so because of the fall of Satan before man was ever created. Like Judas, Jesus told him to go do what he needed to do as Jesus already knew Judas would sell Him out. God already knew ahead of time as Jesus is the arm of God even before the foundation of the world, Isaiah 53:1. This is why Mary, even though not born yet, was already predestined before the foundation of the world for God's purpose here on earth, Jeremiah 1:5.

God does not select before the womb those who will spend eternity with Him or those who will be cast into the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he judges us, 2 Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts become hardened unto Him. Although, a hardened heart can be changed if given proper nourishment.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

God did not predestine the man, but predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. We were created to be holy and without blame before Him.

Adam was created perfect until he fell to temptation.

The passage in Ephesians 1:4 addresses a personal pronoun, not a plan: US.
God chose US in Him BEFORE the foundation (creation) of the world, that WE should be holy and blameless before Him in love.

The whole purpose of Christ was to sacrifice a Holy Son in Eternity for an (created) unholy being in time: Man. This is how I receive US being chosen BEFORE (in front of) then foundation (creation) of the world. It meshes nicely with Revelation 13:8 -

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8.

This book of life with the names of those for whom Christ would die for is prepared also before (in front of) the foundation (creation) of the world. That is predestination.
But I will also agree with you on this if you take it (the Plan) a little bit further: It was the Father's Plan (in Himself in Eternity), the Son implemented the Plan, and the Holy Spirit allies the Plan to God's Elect past, present, and future. You mention 2 Peter 3:9. Let me post it here now:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to US-ward, not willing that any [of US-ward] should perish, but that all [of US-ward] should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9.

Since Peter is writing to "those who have obtained like precious faith with us" he is addressing believers ONLY. This also speaks of predestination.

If Adam was perfect before he sinned the conclusion would be that God reduplicated Himself in dirt, and/or sin comes from perfect (whatever that is for one is either good or evil, sinful or sinless.

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: Mt. 19:17.

You can insert for 'good' any noun you want: holy, sinless, good, righteous, etc. Jesus is saying there is only ONE God who is Perfect, there is NONE like Him (this includes Adam at his creation), and God gives His glory (of which Holy, Sinless, Perfect, Good, Righteous, All-Wise, All-powerful, All-knowing, and the other Deific Attributes of God only God possesses, not man. Adam was not perfect. IF Adam was perfect he would have to possess ALL the deific Attributes of God and he didn't.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If God has already planned who would be His own then what was the whole purpose of Christ's life, death and resurrection.

Even though God created man, yet Jesus being before the foundation of the world had His purpose in the world as God had all things planned out before hand. Do you think God would have known man would sin against Him? I would think so because of the fall of Satan before man was ever created. Like Judas, Jesus told him to go do what he needed to do as Jesus already knew Judas would sell Him out. God already knew ahead of time as Jesus is the arm of God even before the foundation of the world, Isaiah 53:1. This is why Mary, even though not born yet, was already predestined before the foundation of the world for God's purpose here on earth, Jeremiah 1:5.

God does not select before the womb those who will spend eternity with Him or those who will be cast into the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he judges us, 2 Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts become hardened unto Him. Although, a hardened heart can be changed if given proper nourishment.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

God did not predestine the man, but predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. We were created to be holy and without blame before Him.

Adam was created perfect until he fell to temptation.

One point I forgot to mention:

QUOTE: Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation.
RESPONSE: Age of accountability is in the Bible. It is the age of the children under the Law of Moses (Social Law) in which a child is considered an adult with adult responsibilities. For the boy it is bar mitzvah and the girl bat mitzvah (age 14 and 13 respectively.)

It has nothing to do with the age in which one is knowing the difference between good and evil as many churches teach today. It has nothing to do with the subject of sin per se.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God will always forgive a humbled heart that comes before Him confessing they are a sinner in need of God's grace. Jesus is our mediator before the Father.

1Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Tim 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti m2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due tim

Salvation [and all its parts] is of the Lord. Jonah 2:9.
Everything in salvation is a gift of God. One cannot come to God unless God wills it first and the person is drawn. So, none can have a humble 'heart/life' unless God grants that attitude of mind.

 

[jeremiah1five]

fhg,
just fell on this...

It's not that we are born sinful because God made us that way.
God said everything He made was good, just as you've stated.

But when Adam disobeyed God and sinned, Adam become knowledgeable of evil/sin.
He allowed this evil/sin to enter into everything, himself, other humans and nature.
This evil that entered is called by different names: the sin nature, the flesh, concupiscense, and maybe other names I don't know about. But it all means the same. We are born scarred from the effect of the knowledge of evil/sin which Adam allowed into humanity since he was the federal head of mankind he effected each one of us.

So, because of Adam's sinning, we are born with this sin nature...this tendency toward serving satan instead of God.
This is why we need to repent - change our direction - and go toward God.

This is why John 3:18... states that he who does not believe is already lost....because we are born lost.

QUOTE: But when Adam disobeyed God and sinned, Adam become knowledgeable of evil/sin.
RESPONSE: Consider this.

For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom. 7:8–9.

Let's presume that God created Man (Adam) sin-ful, that is 'missing the mark' of the glory of God, 'fallen short of God's Perfect and Holy Glory.' We don't know how long Adam was in that stae before the command THOU SHALT NOT was uttered, but let's for the sake of argument say one year. That means that Adam who was a sinner created that way had not sinned because there was no THOU SHALT NOT. So, for one year Adam did according to his nature UNTIL the Command came and, as Paul said, "sin revived and [I] died."
The Tree in question is the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. But Adam had only known 'good' before God because there was no KNOWLEDGE of [his] evil because there was no THOU SHALT NOT. The Tree did not MAKE Adam evil, it only gave him the KNOWLEDGE of his evil (or sin-fulness.) And this was AFTER the Command of THOU SHALT NOT and AFTER he disobeyed. But God created Adam sin-ful, Adam just didn't KNOW[ledge] it until AFTER he sinned. Now, this wasn't discussed but I add it here.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen. 2:25.

And then there is this:

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; Gen. 3:7.

Then it says:
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Gen. 3:10.

But God comes on the scene and says:

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Gen. 3:11.

Now, in 1 Corinthians Paul says that hair is a covering, right? Well, we know adults have hair around their genitals and this is their covering so this cannot be their 'nakedness' that's being addressed. It has to be their skin everywhere else on their body. IF they made aprons to cover their nakedness I can only think of them making aprons to cover their whole body of skin. They in effect became little walking trees which aprons they made to cover their whole body of exposed skin. And the fact that God said, WHO TOLD YOU THOU WAST NAKED? I kinda think that the serpent ALSO derided them and accused them of their exposed skin and embarrassed them to the point of shame.

 

[Tenchi]

Paul identifies his ONE sin of lust as breaking ONE of the Laws.

Paul was guilty of lust and would have suffered the prescription for that sin under the Law of Moses. But before God he was no longer under condemnation for the sin of lust.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1.

QUOTE: That would be unjust. God condemns a person for that of which they are actually guilty, not for simply existing under His Law.
RESPONSE: Paul teaches that the existence of the Law (or Command) calls him a sinner. He doesn't name a sin for which he is guilty until his example in the next sentence:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: Rom. 7:7.

Let me ask you:

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

This doesn't by any means rebut the points I made in my last post. In fact, your response seems to indicate you didn't actually understand my points. When you offer a reasoned response to what I wrote, I'll be pleased to respond.

 

[Alfred Persson]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)


I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless, was holy, and innocent before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies...

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly...

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God who is heavenly (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology?
...
He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

Before an existential crisis always get the facts right.

Sin didn't exist until Adam sinned:

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:12-14 NKJ)

Adam chose to transgress against God's law, he became lawless which is sinful.

As for Adam being made of dust, this Baptist Theologian should convince you the truth you once believed, is still true.


§ 70

Body, Soul, Spirit

Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. According to the view of many, the specific difference between the life of the human soul and that of animals is expressed by the use of the term נְשָׁמָה in 2:7 (2). This, however, cannot be established, for in 7:22 (“All in whose nostrils was the breath of life died”), the exclusive reference of the expression נְשָׁמָה to man (as merely another expression for כֹּל הָאָדָם, ver. 21), coming between the general terms comprehending man and beast, which stand both before and after it, is not natural. In Deut. 20:16, Josh. 10:40, 11:11–14, כָּל־נְשָׁמָה denotes only men; but in these passages the special reference of the expression is made clear by the connection,—in the passage in Deuteronomy by ver. 18, and in the book of Joshua because from 8:2 onward the cattle are excepted from the חֵרֶם. Otherwise one might as well prove from Josh. 11:11, where כָּל־הַנֶּפֶשׁ is used exclusively of man, that the human soul alone is called נֶפֶשׁ. But it is correct that in the other places in the Old Testament in which נְשָׁמָה occurs it is never expressly used of the mere animal principle of life; comp. Isa. 42:5, Prov. 20:27, Job 32:8, and Ps. 150:6 (כֹּל הַנְּשָׁמָה). Thus the substance of the human soul is the divine spirit of life uniting itself with matter;

 

[for_his_glory]

Salvation [and all its parts] is of the Lord. Jonah 2:9.
Everything in salvation is a gift of God. One cannot come to God unless God wills it first and the person is drawn. So, none can have a humble 'heart/life' unless God grants that attitude of mind.

Is it not God's will that all should come to Him and that none should perish, but God calls us, draws us to Him as faith comes by hearing the Gospel preached to us, but even after the word is preached, many yet turn away as they love darkness more than the light.

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.

​

 

[jeremiah1five]

Before an existential crisis always get the facts right.

Sin didn't exist until Adam sinned:

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:12-14 NKJ)

Adam chose to transgress against God's law, he became lawless which is sinful.

As for Adam being made of dust, this Baptist Theologian should convince you the truth you once believed, is still true.


§ 70

Body, Soul, Spirit

Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. According to the view of many, the specific difference between the life of the human soul and that of animals is expressed by the use of the term נְשָׁמָה in 2:7 (2). This, however, cannot be established, for in 7:22 (“All in whose nostrils was the breath of life died”), the exclusive reference of the expression נְשָׁמָה to man (as merely another expression for כֹּל הָאָדָם, ver. 21), coming between the general terms comprehending man and beast, which stand both before and after it, is not natural. In Deut. 20:16, Josh. 10:40, 11:11–14, כָּל־נְשָׁמָה denotes only men; but in these passages the special reference of the expression is made clear by the connection,—in the passage in Deuteronomy by ver. 18, and in the book of Joshua because from 8:2 onward the cattle are excepted from the חֵרֶם. Otherwise one might as well prove from Josh. 11:11, where כָּל־הַנֶּפֶשׁ is used exclusively of man, that the human soul alone is called נֶפֶשׁ. But it is correct that in the other places in the Old Testament in which נְשָׁמָה occurs it is never expressly used of the mere animal principle of life; comp. Isa. 42:5, Prov. 20:27, Job 32:8, and Ps. 150:6 (כֹּל הַנְּשָׁמָה). Thus the substance of the human soul is the divine spirit of life uniting itself with matter;

Let me ask you:

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Here's a Scripture that may help you:

As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Sam. 24:13.

What say you?

 

[jeremiah1five]

This doesn't by any means rebut the points I made in my last post. In fact, your response seems to indicate you didn't actually understand my points. When you offer a reasoned response to what I wrote, I'll be pleased to respond.

Let's cut to the chase. Answer this question please.

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Here's a Scripture that should help you answer.

As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Sam. 24:13.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Is it not God's will that all should come to Him and that none should perish, but God calls us, draws us to Him as faith comes by hearing the Gospel preached to us, but even after the word is preached, many yet turn away as they love darkness more than the light.

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.

​

QUOTE: Is it not God's will that all should come to Him and that none should perish, but God calls us, draws us to Him as faith comes by hearing the Gospel preached to us, but even after the word is preached, many yet turn away as they love darkness more than the light.
RESPONSE: I get that. But what you may be missing is that Peter is writing to God's Elect, those who have received like precious faith. He is writing to born-again believers. And those whom God wills (and His will be done) that should not perish are believers. Peter is encouraging those in precious faith, not writing about unbelievers.

QUOTE: God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
RESPONSE: God did both. There is a book of life that has names of all God has chosen to save. These are individuals. The book of life is a fixed book. Just like the angels are a fixed group. No one is being added to the book of life and no one is being blotted out. No angels are being created or born to add to the number and none are dying to subtract. Even the number of those angels that rebelled against God are a fixed number: One-third.
And this:

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: Acts. 10:34–36.

First, the gospel is a "Jewish" message to Israel announcing the arrival of their Messiah, the Promised One. Peter is also witnessing the opening of the "Jewish" Covenant which now includes Gentiles until the destruction of the Temple which occurred in 70 AD which effectively ended temporarily the 'ism' of Judaism and now began the Times of the Gentiles in which God is focused in bringing Gentiles into the "Jewish" Covenant through Christ, Israel's Messiah. He's King of the "Jews" first and King of the Gentiles second.

QUOTE: The Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).
RESPONSE: God set a plan in motion to save every person named in the book of life (even before they are born). God saves people, not a plan. God is following a predetermined plan to save people, His people, His Church (and His Church includes those named in the book of life who lived under the Law.

QUOTE: Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.
RESPONSE: It has nothing to do with Luck. It has to do simply on the good pleasure of God's will. Men are passive in salvation. God sets His people free from the BONDAGE of sin and once freed there is nowhere else to go but God.

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5.

Notice the personal pronoun US, and the adoption of children which are people, not a plan.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philipians 2:13.

People are saved according to the good pleasure of God's will which he purposed in himself before the world began. People don't choose Christ, Christ chooses them.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: Jn. 15:16.

And it's a good thing He chooses us because NONE SEEK GOD, NONE GO TO THE LIGHT.

 

[Hopeful]

QUOTE: Were he holy he would not have disobeyed God.
RESPONSE: That's correct. So, if he wasn't holy he was 'less' than God and that would make him sin-ful before he disobeyed God because sin does not come from holy, sin comes from sinners.

QUOTE: Why do you consider the pre-sinning man holy?
RESPONSE: I don't. God created Adam sin-ful. The word 'sin-ful' comes from the Greek word 'harmatia' which means "missing the mark" [think archery]. So what is the 'mark' he missed? There's only one standard in all creation: the glory of God.

Why can't you consider that at the beginning of creation there may have been something between holy and unholy...like neutral or uninfluenced?
A place from where Adam would choose his destiny?
And what would make Adam "holy" anyways?
He was made of dirt, and quickened by God.
He didn't go through any voluntary rites or other action that would make him "holy", or sanctified.
God never called him holy or sanctified.
Why do you?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Let me ask you:

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Here's a Scripture that may help you:

As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Sam. 24:13.

What say you?

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:12-14 NKJ)

God's command what Adam could and could not eat, was the law, but not Mosaic law Paul references:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16-17 NKJ)

Therefore, Adam's transgression against that law was sinful, it is then "through one man sin entered the world."


"Sin from holy" is gibberish. Sin came from Adam's lawlessness, before that sin didn't exist in the world.

Repent, stop rebelling against Scripture, it is the Word of God and there are consequences for persistent willful rebellion against the God's truth.

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD has gone forth in fury-- A violent whirlwind! It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
21 "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel, And had caused My people to hear My words, Then they would have turned them from their evil way And from the evil of their doings.
23 "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.
25 "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying,`I have dreamed, I have dreamed!'
26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,
27 "who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who steal My words every one from his neighbor.
31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who use their tongues and say,`He says.'
32 "Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," says the LORD, "and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all," says the LORD.
33 "So when these people or the prophet or the priest ask you, saying,`What is the oracle of the LORD?' you shall then say to them,`What oracle?' I will even forsake you," says the LORD.
34 "And as for the prophet and the priest and the people who say,`The oracle of the LORD!' I will even punish that man and his house. (Jer. 23:19-34 NKJ)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Why can't you consider that at the beginning of creation there may have been something between holy and unholy...like neutral or uninfluenced?
A place from where Adam would choose his destiny?
And what would make Adam "holy" anyways?
He was made of dirt, and quickened by God.
He didn't go through any voluntary rites or other action that would make him "holy", or sanctified.
God never called him holy or sanctified.
Why do you?

Hello Hopeful.
There is no such thing as 'neutral' or 'uninfluenced.'
One has to be holy or unholy, to be able to stand before a Holy God on their own or fall short of His glory.
"Neutral' and 'uninfluenced' are just words to try to cheat from saying holy and unholy.

I don't call Adam and the woman holy. This post has as its main premise that God created Adam and the woman sin-ful, or as the Greek word is defined (harmatia) as sin. It means 'missing the mark' [think archery].
What is the 'mark?'
The glory of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:12-14 NKJ)

God's command what Adam could and could not eat, was the law, but not Mosaic law Paul references:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16-17 NKJ)

Therefore, Adam's transgression against that law was sinful, it is then "through one man sin entered the world."


"Sin from holy" is gibberish. Sin came from Adam's lawlessness, before that sin didn't exist in the world.

Repent, stop rebelling against Scripture, it is the Word of God and there are consequences for persistent willful rebellion against the God's truth.

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD has gone forth in fury-- A violent whirlwind! It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
21 "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel, And had caused My people to hear My words, Then they would have turned them from their evil way And from the evil of their doings.
23 "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.
25 "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying,`I have dreamed, I have dreamed!'
26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,
27 "who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who steal My words every one from his neighbor.
31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who use their tongues and say,`He says.'
32 "Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," says the LORD, "and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all," says the LORD.
33 "So when these people or the prophet or the priest ask you, saying,`What is the oracle of the LORD?' you shall then say to them,`What oracle?' I will even forsake you," says the LORD.
34 "And as for the prophet and the priest and the people who say,`The oracle of the LORD!' I will even punish that man and his house. (Jer. 23:19-34 NKJ)

QUOTE: "Sin from holy" is gibberish. Sin came from Adam's lawlessness, before that sin didn't exist in the world.
RESPONSE: There is no sin unless there was a Law (or Command).

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Rom 5:13.

Until the Law (or Command) SIN WAS IN THE WORLD.

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom. 7:8–11.

You must've missed this.

 

[Alfred Persson]

QUOTE: "Sin from holy" is gibberish. Sin came from Adam's lawlessness, before that sin didn't exist in the world.
RESPONSE: There is no sin unless there was a Law (or Command).

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Rom 5:13.

Until the Law (or Command) SIN WAS IN THE WORLD.

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom. 7:8–11.

You must've missed this.

God's command is not law? That is the nature of Divine Law, commandments from God.

The command not to eat of that particular tree was NOT Mosaic law, which is the Law Paul is referring to.

Equivocation renders your objection unsound.

Adam and Eve broke the only law that existed then, and after they violated it sin entered the world and they both were kicked out of Eden.

The clear difference between scripture and your personal revelations is a red flag you should heed. God the Holy Spirit will never teach anything different than what He has already caused to be written in Scripture. God does not change.

 

[Tenchi]

Let's cut to the chase. Answer this question please.

??? No, why don't you address the points I made in my post to you? As far as I'm concerned, you would "cut to the chase" by doing so.

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Here's a Scripture that should help you answer.

As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Sam. 24:13.

If you're going to answer your own question, why ask me to answer it?

What you're doing in asking your questions above is forming a false dichotomy. Do you know what a false dichotomy is? As myself and others have explained to you in this thread, the situation of Adam and Eve in Eden prior to the Fall was unique, the two of them existing in a state of sinless innocence, and as a result, enjoying direct, unhindered fellowship with God in the Garden. Only once they'd rebelled against God and fallen into sin was that direct fellowship interrupted; only once they'd sinned did they suffer the punishment of God and were cast out of Eden. If, from the moment of their creation, Adam and Eve had been fundamentally sinful - that is: wicked, rebellious, breakers of God's law, as the Bible defines sin - God would have dealt with them as such, just as He did when Adam and Eve ate the Forbidden Fruit. But this wasn't at all the manner in which God interacted with Adam and Eve prior to their taking of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. How, then, do you say that they were, in fact, sinful creatures right from the very beginning of their existence? As far as I can see, your...peculiar notions about their sinful nature don't - and actually can't - account for this very marked difference that hinged, not on who they were, but on what they had chosen to do.

 

[Mark51]

You missed the post where I submitted Rev. 13:8.
A lamb was sacrificed which allowed a Righteous God to create an unrighteous man.
But I don't think you understand that.

Your original post stated that Adam was created sinful. My post disagrees with this point.

 

[Hopeful]

Hello Hopeful.
There is no such thing as 'neutral' or 'uninfluenced.'

Are two year old kids evil or holy?
They are moldable until they make their own choices to be evil or holy.

One has to be holy or unholy, to be able to stand before a Holy God on their own or fall short of His glory.
"Neutral' and 'uninfluenced' are just words to try to cheat from saying holy and unholy.

Why?
When the day of judgement comes all men will stand before God.
Then we can start to assign labels.

I don't call Adam and the woman holy. This post has as its main premise that God created Adam and the woman sin-ful, or as the Greek word is defined (harmatia) as sin. It means 'missing the mark' [think archery].
What is the 'mark?'
The glory of God.

Man can't be anything until they do something to earn a label.
Adam wasn't sinful on the day before he sinned.

What is the point of saying God created Adam, (and some angels), sinful?
Are you going to blame God for sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

QUOTE: But when Adam disobeyed God and sinned, Adam become knowledgeable of evil/sin.
RESPONSE: Consider this.

For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom. 7:8–9.

Let's presume that God created Man (Adam) sin-ful, that is 'missing the mark' of the glory of God, 'fallen short of God's Perfect and Holy Glory.' We don't know how long Adam was in that stae before the command THOU SHALT NOT was uttered, but let's for the sake of argument say one year. That means that Adam who was a sinner created that way had not sinned because there was no THOU SHALT NOT. So, for one year Adam did according to his nature UNTIL the Command came and, as Paul said, "sin revived and [I] died."
The Tree in question is the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. But Adam had only known 'good' before God because there was no KNOWLEDGE of [his] evil because there was no THOU SHALT NOT. The Tree did not MAKE Adam evil, it only gave him the KNOWLEDGE of his evil (or sin-fulness.) And this was AFTER the Command of THOU SHALT NOT and AFTER he disobeyed. But God created Adam sin-ful, Adam just didn't KNOW[ledge] it until AFTER he sinned. Now, this wasn't discussed but I add it here.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen. 2:25.

And then there is this:

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; Gen. 3:7.

Then it says:
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Gen. 3:10.

But God comes on the scene and says:

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Gen. 3:11.

Now, in 1 Corinthians Paul says that hair is a covering, right? Well, we know adults have hair around their genitals and this is their covering so this cannot be their 'nakedness' that's being addressed. It has to be their skin everywhere else on their body. IF they made aprons to cover their nakedness I can only think of them making aprons to cover their whole body of skin. They in effect became little walking trees which aprons they made to cover their whole body of exposed skin. And the fact that God said, WHO TOLD YOU THOU WAST NAKED? I kinda think that the serpent ALSO derided them and accused them of their exposed skin and embarrassed them to the point of shame.

I don't know about the serpent deriding Adam and Eve.
I hate to use conjecture unless there's supporting evidence elsewhere in scripture (which wouldn't make it conjecture I guess).

As to the rest.
I agree.
I think I answered to one of your posts in almost the same wording...


I do not agree, however, that God made them sinful.

God said everything He made was good.
Sin is not good.

Also, you're attributing our sinful nature to God.
That sounds a little reformed to me.
If God is all good and in Him there is no darkness,
then sin cannot be attributed to God.

This goes back to the problem of theodicy again.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God's command is not law? That is the nature of Divine Law, commandments from God.

The command not to eat of that particular tree was NOT Mosaic law, which is the Law Paul is referring to.

Equivocation renders your objection unsound.

Adam and Eve broke the only law that existed then, and after they violated it sin entered the world and they both were kicked out of Eden.

The clear difference between scripture and your personal revelations is a red flag you should heed. God the Holy Spirit will never teach anything different than what He has already caused to be written in Scripture. God does not change.

It doesn't matter.
The Law of God are Commands, the Commands of God are Law.

Tell me...

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?