God drags us to Himself John 6:44

[journeyman]

What are your sources?

How about what the Bible says,

If a false witness testifies against another person and accuses him of a crime, then both parties to the controversy must stand before the LORD, that is, before the priests and judges who will be in office in those days. The judges will thoroughly investigate the matter, and if the witness should prove to be false and to have given false testimony against the accused, you must do to him what he had intended to do to the accused. In this way you will purge evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear and become afraid to keep doing such evil among you. You must not show pity; the principle will be a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, and a foot for a foot. Deu.19.16-21 NET

Jesus' accusers weren't charged, tried and executed because He didn't want them damned.

 

[electedbyhim]

How about what the Bible says,

If a false witness testifies against another person and accuses him of a crime, then both parties to the controversy must stand before the LORD, that is, before the priests and judges who will be in office in those days. The judges will thoroughly investigate the matter, and if the witness should prove to be false and to have given false testimony against the accused, you must do to him what he had intended to do to the accused. In this way you will purge evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear and become afraid to keep doing such evil among you. You must not show pity; the principle will be a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, and a foot for a foot. Deu.19.16-21 NET

Jesus' accusers weren't charged, tried and executed because He didn't want them damned.

This has nothing to do with John 6:44

 

[journeyman]

This has nothing to do with John 6:44

Sure it does. They murmured about His claim of authority because they said they knew His father Joseph.
They said He was a sinner also.

 

[electedbyhim]

Sure it does. They murmured about His claim of authority because they said they knew His father Joseph.
They said He was a sinner also.

Again, this has nothing with God "drawing" in John 6:44.

This is confusing.

 

[journeyman]

Again, this has nothing with God "drawing" in John 6:44.

This is confusing.

There's nothing confusing about forming opinions about people that aren't true, no matter how much we think we know and that's all some of them did.

They weren't "totally depraved." They simply challenged a long held belief before they had all the facts. Even as greedy as some of the priests and scribes were, they still believed the Messiah would come to defeat any nation they were subject to. So did their sin blind them? Of course, but incorrect beliefs about a coming Messiah also blinded them.

When Peter properly interpreted scripture they knew referred to the Messiah, that's when they were "drawn to Jesus." They asked how to be forgiven.

 

[Whatever]

No it's sinners talking about Jesus and God knowing it in advance.

No, it was God talking about what He had foreordained for His Son.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Bruise = dâkâ' = to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.

 

[electedbyhim]

There's nothing confusing about forming opinions about people that aren't true, no matter how much we think we know and that's all some of them did.

They weren't "totally depraved." They simply challenged a long held belief before they had all the facts. Even as greedy as some of the priests and scribes were, they still believed the Messiah would come to defeat any nation they were subject to. So did their sin blind them? Of course, but incorrect beliefs about a coming Messiah also blinded them.

When Peter properly interpreted scripture they knew referred to the Messiah, that's when they were "drawn to Jesus." They asked how to be forgiven.

You just don not get it.

 

[journeyman]

No, it was God talking about what He had foreordained for His Son.

Jesus showed mercy to sinners He could have destroyed.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God,

For the purpose of showing Gods' mercy.

you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Lawless hands show mankinds' wickedness.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Bruise = dâkâ' = to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.

Explained and ignored already.

 

[journeyman]

You just don not get it.

Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness...Isa.5:20 KJV

 

[electedbyhim]

Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness...Isa.5:20 KJV

Are you pronouncing a "Woe" on me?

What are you really trying to say?

 

[journeyman]

Are you pronouncing a "Woe" on me?

Not unless you're pronouncing God ever seeing Jesus as evil or darkness.

What are you really trying to say?

That Jesus showing mercy towards sinners was our Fathers' will. Tormenting Jesus was not our Fathers' will.

Do you understand sinning against Jesus is sinning against God Himself?

 

[electedbyhim]

Not unless you're pronouncing God ever seeing Jesus as evil or darkness.

That Jesus showing mercy towards sinners was our Fathers' will. Tormenting Jesus was not our Fathers' will.

Do you understand sinning against Jesus is sinning against God Himself?

We are way off topic here.

I know Whatever posted this verse, but I will again.

Isaiah 53:10 But Yahweh was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If You would place His soul as a guilt offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of Yahweh will succeed in His hand

What do you think that verse means?

 

[Christ_empowered]

I find similar inspiration in reading some of rc sprouls material.


Not to get super personal and or emo here but my own experience of repentance and genuine salvation vs simply repeating a well intentioned prayer found in a popular Christian book is part of what convinces me that Calvinism is the best hermeneutic. And…
Did I mention that I really shouldn’t have been alive when I came to my senses?


It’s not that I’m super special lol it’s like a modern day spiritual autobiography 11 years into knowing Christ Jesus…

Not really supposed to be alive then God restores after genuine conversion. The obvious question why me? This is not a meritocracy thank goodness


The bigger question why any person anywhere ever at all? Again: not a meritocracy!

 

[electedbyhim]

I find similar inspiration in reading some of rc sprouls material.


Not to get super personal and or emo here but my own experience of repentance and genuine salvation vs simply repeating a well intentioned prayer found in a popular Christian book is part of what convinces me that Calvinism is the best hermeneutic. And…
Did I mention that I really shouldn’t have been alive when I came to my senses?


It’s not that I’m super special lol it’s like a modern day spiritual autobiography 11 years into knowing Christ Jesus…

Not really supposed to be alive then God restores after genuine conversion. The obvious question why me? This is not a meritocracy thank goodness


The bigger question why any person anywhere ever at all? Again: not a meritocracy!

I agree with you.

I should have been dead several times in my previous life.

It is obvious that the Lord has a plan for all of His elect.

Why did He choose me? I now know that it is to bring Him glory in all I do. That is a challenge in itself when my flesh wants to get in the way.

It is obvious to me that I deserved Hell and damnation.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[journeyman]

We are way off topic here.

I know Whatever posted this verse, but I will again.

Isaiah 53:10 But Yahweh was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If You would place His soul as a guilt offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of Yahweh will succeed in His hand

What do you think that verse means?

Answered in post 99. And "we hid...our faces from him...and we esteemed him not"
(Isa.53:3) doesn't mean God esteemed His Son that way. So,
"we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted" (Isa53:4) because the Sanhedrin convicted Him of being s sinner worthy of death. That was a lie.

 

[JLB]

If God draws His elect to salvation, He will also perfect them to the end.

Please start a new thread and we will debate this.

You are not understanding these verses.

Stay on topic, why is that so hard to do?

Human pride gets in the way.

Again, as we see, the topic is about salvation, as noted in your post.

No debate to it.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:43-44


Wouldn't you agree that being raised up the last day is a salvation issue?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, if one is saved and believes he could lose his salvation then suicide would be the right approach during the "saved phase" if one is to play the odds efficiently.

So then, those who endure to the end are saved.

OTW's it's at the end of our faith that we receive the salvation of our souls.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9



JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

Again, as we see, the topic is about salvation, as noted in your post.

No debate to it.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:43-44


Wouldn't you agree that being raised up the last day is a salvation issue?




JLB

Pretty sure raised up pertains to our resurrection.

The preceding verses give that away.

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

And I will raise him up (anistemi) on the last day - This is a truth Jesus repeats four times in John 6 - Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54. Thus raise/resurrect is a keyword. Now Jesus says the one the Father draws is the one He will resurrect from the dead, a reference in context of this discourse to eternal life (Jn 6:40). The implication is that the one who is drawn will also be resurrected. This statement parallels and repeats the truth He had just declared....

I am not certain what you are getting at.

 

[Iconoclast]

It certainly is Whatever.
That is a big problem.

No it's sinners talking about Jesus and God knowing it in advance.

Many of them believed Jesus was guilty of a crime punishable by death. They "esteemed" wrong.

The "chastisement" that all Gods' children experience, "it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them....."Heb.12:11

"the chastisement of our peace was upon him....." Isa.53:5, means Jesus submitted to His Fathers' correction. It doesn't mean He needed correction. It doesn't mean we escape correction.


But I say unto you Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; Mt.5:44 KJV

I don't think you clearly see how Jesus wept over sinners.

He shall see of the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied Isa.53:11 KJV

Jesus was not being chastised as we are. He had no sin of His own. He as our Passover was sacrificed for the elect.

 

[journeyman]

Jesus was not being chastised as we are.

Heb.12 says otherwise and why.

He had no sin of His own.

Yes I know lol. I wonder how many times I've said exactly that.
Jesus showed mankind Gods' example of how He wants us to be with the ungodly, showing mercy. Heb.12 says this.
Jesus showed mankind Gods' example of how He doesn't want mankind to be with His Son. Heb.12 says this also.
Jesus showed mankind how God uses the evil of mankind to teach us how painful it is when people sin against Him and the love He has for sinners in spite of it. Heb. 12 says this.

He as our Passover was sacrificed for the elect.

Yes and most of that original group will never enter Gods' rest.