God has only one name made known to us.

[Solo]

I'm sorry but the Bible clearly states that Baptism is required for true salvation. First of all, the Plan of Salvation that Peter had (also known as the Keys To the Kingdom) states that to be saved one must "Repent, Be Baptized, And Filled With the Holy Ghost to be Saved."

Hi Apostolic Soldier,

First off, I'll start by saying that I am a member of the Church of Christ where Baptism is held in very high regard. Unfortunately, there are those among us who believe as you believe. That is, that Baptism is a requirement for true salvation and that if one is not Baptized, then ones soul will rot in hell for eternity.

Unfortunately, the above view of the role of Baptism is not accurate and actually distorts the beauty of Baptism while turning a function of grace into an act of works. You see, what you've done is assigned the rite of Baptism a line in the sand which defines heaven and hell when in actuality, Baptism is a response to the gospel which we have been invited to celebrate as we enter into and live out the resurrected Christ.

[quote="Apostolic Soldier":1qvpg465]And I do not the Flesh of Jesus as a puppet. However, Jesus only lived to DIE. The whole point of the Flesh was for eternal (blood) sacrifice. There was no other point in God coming to Earth in the manner he did. Jesus even told us that he came only to die.

Luke 24:46 - And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

While I agree that Jesus came to die, it was for a purpose and that purpose also included fulfilling what the Law was unable to accomplish...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

According to Paul in Romans, the purpose of the law was to bring life, but instead of life, sin was afforded the opportunity to bring about death to show that all, including Israel was still in Adam. This is why Jesus says that he is the way, the truth and the life as Jesus shows the true way to uphold Torah both physically and spiritually.

Yes, and I would just like to add 1 Corinthians 1:17 - Paul says "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel..." One verse earlier Paul states that he only baptized a couple of people. If baptism were essential to salvation, then why wouldn't have Paul baptized them? Why does he seem to downplay baptism in 1 Corinthians 1?[/quote:1qvpg465]
You are exactly right. Baptism is the first act of obedience following Christ after one is born of God. Jesus taught repent, believe, and follow me.

In John 3, all who believe gain eternal life. The Spirit births one into the family of God prior to any action by the believer.

The teaching of baptism regeneration comes from the Roman Catholic church. They are able to control the masses by teaching that only "The Church" can baptize you into the body of Christ, and that only "The Church" can keep you in the body of Christ. A lie from satan himself.

The understanding of God's salvation is perverted by those that MUST do something to be saved! Salvation is the free gift of God by grace through faith to every one that believes, not to every one that gets wet. A total misscharacterization of the Scripture concerning Salvation.

DO NOT BELIEVE THESE FALSE TEACHINGS ABOUT WATER BAPTISM IS REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Solo,
I'm actually surprised at your answer. If I recall, it wasn't long ago that you and Javier were calling the Church of Christ a cult and I was a heretic who believed that one must be baptized to be saved... I'm curious, since I have not changed my stance on Baptism, what's changed Solo?

That being said, I believe that scripture supports baptism (water) as part of a believers salvation. Remember, although I am already saved, God is still saving me.

Grace and peace,
Jeff

 

[glorydaz]

Therefore let that which you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

(1 John 2:24 EMTV)

Again, without the trinity this passage makes no sense.
Why not just say 'abide in God' instead of making ANY distinction between the two?

Sure it makes sense..John wants us to know ..."that (one God) which you heard from the beginning" abides in you. That which is from the beginning is the One true God. John already told us the Word is God...He's making it clear that the Son, the Jesus they knew, was God. John could just as easily have said to abide in the source and the expression of God. There is a distinction because the Father is the source, the Son is the expression, and the Spirit is the application. Since God is triune, why doesn't the Word also say abide in the Spirit? That's why all of scripture must be taken as a whole...

God as the Father is in the believer. God as the Son is in the believer. God as the Spirit is in the believer. That we might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Eph. 3 - 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either.
(1 John 2:23 EMTV)

Again, if no Trinity then why make any distinction here?
"God" would have sufficed instead of making a distinction between the Son and the Father.

No, God wouldn't have sufficed. The Pharisees of the day denied the Son was God.

 

[JudaicChristian]

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone useing the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.

SO....WHAT

YOu keep running to bits and pieces that you can use to dismiss the REST of the data, friend.
ALL THRU the New Testament Jesus IS portrayed as being His own person.

He is the Word who is WITH God and IS God.
Even if our tiny, pathetic minds cannot grasp it all God IS triune in nature based on the WHOLE scope of evidence.

The article “a†is missing do to the scripture being translated from Aramaic or Hebrew?


Definite and indefinite
The prefixed definite article ha- (with germination of the first consonant in the noun, except where Hebrew phonological rules prohibit the gemination) indicates definiteness.

There is no indefinite article, so that, for example, ?? yad can mean either simply ‘hand’ or “a hand.â€

Sporadically in the Bible, especially in Israelian Hebrew material, and more regularly in Mishnaic Hebrew, the numeral “1â€, masc. ??? ehad, fem. ??? ahat serves as the indefinite article, thus, e.g., ??? or ??? is ehad, either “one†-man or “a†-manâ€, depending on the context.
John 10:33. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be (or: a) God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

 

[glorydaz]

that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, in order that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:3 EMTV)

Our fellowship is with the Father AND with His Son.
This passage makes little sense without the concept of the Trinity.

It does to me... :yes

Our fellowship is with the source of divine life and with the embodiment of divine life.
We can't have fellowship with God the Father unless He'd come as a man. The Son is the way we reach the source. Now we have the Spirit which includes the Father and the Son...God all in all dwelling in us.
God cannot be separated from Himself with an "and" or any other word we can come up with. There is just one God. ;)

 

[stovebolts]

I know the context of 1 Corinthians and I understand all that. I should have put downplay in "quotes" as I certainly do not mean to downplay the importance of baptism - I fully affirm that every believer should be baptized. My point was that if it was a requirement for salvation then Paul would have made a big deal about it, the fact that he doesn't implies that though baptism is important, it is not an essential element to salvation.

Hi again Todd,

LOl, not a problem. I think I understood your jist.

Anyway, it's ironic that you should add, as many do that "it is not an essential element to salvation" and I say ironic because so many people like to categorize salvation into essential and non essential elements. I on the other hand believe that Baptism is very much a part of ones salvation for it is in the Baptismal waters that we are burried and raised with Christ. As Paul writes to the church in Rome,

(NIV) Romans6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

(NIV) Romans6:8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

I know that many have a hard time wrapping their heads around baptism actually playing a role in ones salvation because we like to draw this nice neat, clean line between heaven and earth, the afterlife and today, but if we can understand that eternity is now, and that how we respond to the gospel, for as Paul again puts it, 2 Timothy2:Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,

Baptism is more than obedience, it is a response to the gospel to repent and die from your old ways, unite with the resurrected Christ and commit oneself from the heart to Christ.

Grace and Peace,
Jeff

 

[jasoncran]

i think that its best that get baptized, steve what about the theif on the cross? he didnt get baptized or some that are their deathbed repenting, and die seconds later.

some pentacostals do that type of thing the holy spirit baptism.

 

[glorydaz]

The Greek word for both is ??? - a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force.

In this verse, I believe it points more to the oneness of the Father and Son, than to a separateness.
The doctrine of Christ is the risen Lord...no longer in His humanity.

Firstly, lets leave the translating to the actual scholars ;)

Secondly,*IF* there were NO individuality at all then ONLY mentioning 'God' would have sufficed.
But instead a distinction is made between the Father and the Son.
Of course if we have one with have the other.

Sorry, but I'll look to the Greek as the Lord leads.
I don't need a scholar to help me out with that.

No, only mentioning God would not suffice since God is not one-dimensional.
He is God and He is God come in the flesh.
He is also the Holy Spirit which is the essence and reality of divine life in us. :angel2

 

[follower of Christ]

Sure it makes sense..

Youre right...it does make sense because its showing two persons of the Trinity ;)

There is a distinction because the Father is the source, the Son is the expression, and the Spirit is the application. Since God is triune, why doesn't the Word also say abide in the Spirit?

This is what I mean.
You use the word 'triune' as if to agree with us, then you contradict by seemingly rejecting three 'persons' for this source/expression/application nonsense.

That's why all of scripture must be taken as a whole...

Hmmm
And which scripture again say that the Spirit is 'the application' ?
This almost sounds like something torn from some heretical book or something.

Please answer plainly.
Do you believe in the Trinity as we are proclaiming it here in this thread ?

 

[glorydaz]

Some get offended when we say Jesus instead of Yehoshua.

You say there is only one God. He has many names. Jesus is God...he has many names.

How come you guys do not know the difference between a personal name and a name title?

Yehoshua isn't a name title, is it?[/quote]
Yahshua is derived from Joshua. Yahshua is his given birth name. Yahshua is the trans-literal into English. Peniel is his original personal name. He was the messenger of Yahwah. The word "angel" translated into English is messenger.[/quote]

Yes, and that means......?
It sounds like some here are insisting there is only one name, and that name is decided and spelled and pronounced correctly by whom? We do have the Holy Spirit to interpret our prayers. God does look at the heart. Some people can't speak a name at all, and yet the Spirit knows...does He not?

 

[follower of Christ]

The article “a†is missing do to the scripture being translated from Aramaic or Hebrew?[/color]

Oh brother...here we go with some here playing scholar of Hebrew

I'll stick with what the REAL scholars have translated for us on this one, friend :yes

 

[follower of Christ]

It does to me... :yes

it does to me to.
It shows us some of the Trinity concept :yes

We can't have fellowship with God the Father unless He'd come as a man.

Ah...there we go.
So you dont actually believe in the Trinity, then.

Sorry, but MY bibles show that The Son came, not the Father :yes

God cannot be separated from Himself

He doesnt need to be.

God cannot be separated from Himself with an "and" or any other word we can come up with. There is just one God.

He is triune in nature. 3 persons, 1 God.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Please answer plainly.
Do you believe in the Trinity as we are proclaiming it here in this thread ?

You need to go back and re-read this thread.
Psalm 51:10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sorry, but I'll look to the Greek as the Lord leads.

Sorry but all those translators already did as much and THEY know the language...they arent just looking at a dictionary :yes

I don't need a scholar to help me out with that.

So you think by looking at ONE word that you are qualified to RE-translate entire phrases and sentences from an ancient language, eh ?
Ive taken a number of years of foreign languages and I know better than to try that for the most part.

You do need a scholar friend, including the one who wrote that dictionary youre using and the bible translation you read :yes

He is God and He is God come in the flesh.

The Word, The Son, came in the flesh according to John 1.

He is also the Holy Spirit which is the essence and reality of divine life in us. :angel2

The Holy Spirit is God, for certain. One person of the Godhead

 

[follower of Christ]

You need to go back and re-read this thread.

No, you need to not answer questions that were directed to someone else :yes

No, God wouldn't have sufficed. The Pharisees of the day denied the Son was God.

Certainly it would have *IF* there were no Trinity.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Some get offended when we say Jesus instead of Yehoshua.

You say there is only one God. He has many names. Jesus is God...he has many names.

How come you guys do not know the difference between a personal name and a name title?

Yehoshua isn't a name title, is it?

Yahshua is derived from Joshua. Yahshua is his given birth name. Yahshua is the trans-literal into English. Peniel is his original personal name. He was the messenger of Yahwah. The word "angel" translated into English is messenger.[/quote]

Yes, and that means......?
It sounds like some here are insisting there is only one name, and that name is decided and spelled and pronounced correctly by whom? We do have the Holy Spirit to interpret our prayers. God does look at the heart. Some people can't speak a name at all, and yet the Spirit knows...does He not?[/quote]
Yahshua means "Life Savior." Interpretation: God's Salvation. Exodus 23:21
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.

 

[follower of Christ]

Baptism is more than obedience, it is a response to the gospel to repent and die from your old ways, unite with the resurrected Christ and commit oneself from the heart to Christ.

Grace and Peace,
Jeff

What about a person who isnt able to get baptized in water....are they just lost ?
I believe we are instructed to be baptized in water...Jesus did it and thats good enough for me. But somehow I seriously doubt God will send a repentant soul to hell because of a lack of water....kwim ?

 

[glorydaz]

I'm sure you believe Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human...right?

I believe the Son of God came in the flesh, yes.

Jesus willingly put aside His divine nature while taking on the flesh of natural man...
He became like us. Right? Tempted as we are...suffering as we do. He put aside His ability to see into the future, to be everywhere at the same time, to create, to do all those things God is able to do. God, who was still with/in Him knew, but the man Jesus did not.

Youve just admitted with every 'He' and 'His' in reference to Jesus that you do believe in His individuality.
Was that the intent ?

Jesus is the Word who was WITH God and who IS God...ie part of the Triune God.


edit to add...
glorydaz
Could you clarify if you believe in the Trinity or not ?
Some of your posts are very confusing, almost as if in one breath your arguing FOR and in the next youre arguing AGAINST.
Could you take a clear position here ?
I just dont want to mistake your position
.

I'm sorry if my position doesn't seem clear.
I use He and His because it's so hard to speak of God with the words of man.
Jesus had the same problem trying to get his own disciples to understand.
Man is so limited when it comes to understanding and speaking of our Creator.

I've always believed in the trinity, but I've seen a big problem with those who hold too tightly to the issue of "personhood". Man's inability to set aside his own understanding of the triune nature of of God has allowed many heresies to come forth. It's allowed a separateness to dominate, which comes out in such doctrines as Jesus being a lesser God subservient to the Father. In some circles, He isn't even allowed to sit on the throne and rule and reign because He has to wait until some future millennium. "Personhood" separates God from Himself. I think it's a poor choice of words that has led to many people holding a view of God being three individuals and that is not the case.

 

[glorydaz]

You are exactly right. Baptism is the first act of obedience following Christ after one is born of God. Jesus taught repent, believe, and follow me.

In John 3, all who believe gain eternal life. The Spirit births one into the family of God prior to any action by the believer.

The teaching of baptism regeneration comes from the Roman Catholic church. They are able to control the masses by teaching that only "The Church" can baptize you into the body of Christ, and that only "The Church" can keep you in the body of Christ. A lie from satan himself.

The understanding of God's salvation is perverted by those that MUST do something to be saved! Salvation is the free gift of God by grace through faith to every one that believes, not to every one that gets wet. A total misscharacterization of the Scripture concerning Salvation.

DO NOT BELIEVE THESE FALSE TEACHINGS ABOUT WATER BAPTISM IS REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.

:amen