What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

God makes some vessels unto honor, some unto dishonor-- are both God's elect?

By Grace said: ↑
Cults twist Scripture. Honest new believers (aka babes in Christ) ask honest questions. The difference in the two is great, and for that reason, I believe an apology is due to Clover me. Thank you
Click to expand...
Doulos Iesou said:
Calvinists twist Scripture, period.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Calvinism is a form of systematic theology, and not a cult. For you to take my words out of context, and apply it to Calvinism is both appalling and divisive. Why are you attempting to poison a babe in Christ with your obvious hatred of things in Reformed theology? that is being insensitive to the needs of the poster, it is derailing the OP, it is being rude, and the discussion of Calvinism rightfully belongs on another thread dedicated to the Calvinism/Arminian issue. I did not see that when I looked for it, but I believe that it once was here.


Doulos Iesou said:
We receive by faith the work that Christ has done for us on the Cross.

If a king gives his riches to a poor man and he receives it, does the poor man go home shouting, "I did it!!!! I earned this fortune by my own power of accepting!!!" That would be absurd now wouldn't it?

It goes even beyond that because the Holy Spirit works through the gospel to create faith in the hearts of those who hear the gospel, this work as I mentioned is not irresistible but makes it so that the whole process is one of grace.


I too would recommend studying this topic, but to do so after one has matured in their faith a bit more and then to consider both views and not just from a Calvinistic source as I did at the onset of my faith journey.

These are difficult questions, and if we aren't careful they will be completely decided by the preconceived views we acquire in our mind.


I have listened to countless teachings from R.C. Sproul from back when I was a Calvinist they lead me to a place of deep confusion almost to the point of losing my faith.

I recommend caution.


When I use the term I don't use it in a manner that I think is derogatory. Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin, it is just an easily recognizable theological distinction for those who hold to reformed soteriology such as yourself.


Would you really recommend a new believer start with those guys? :tongue


Scripture of course does say that we have been chosen, but much like the people of Israel we are chosen corporately. And again much like the children of Israel our stance in the Covenant is sustained by faith, obedience to the Covenant and a part so long as we are found in Christ our Covenant Representative.

To say that God chose me and not someone else (who died an unbeliever) for the purposes of his glory is incorrect.


No disagreement here. This is not uniquely Calvinistic.


Don't forget the other side of the coin, if he decides who gets saved he also chooses who doesn't.


Is it perfectly just and good for him to create a being that could not do otherwise, setup the preconditions for his inability and then punish him for that which he had no other choice but to do?

It's like shooting the man who picked up the gun, except he had no choice but to pick it up. In this case he was born.


Technically in Calvinistic theology only those for whom Christ particularly died have the possibility of being saved. It is just from your perspective that "anyone can be saved," as you don't know who the elect are.


He determines it, yet we are supposedly "free" to make choices? More like humans are free to perform actions, but the actions committed are not done so freely as they are determined and ultimately done by God.

Compatibilism (sic) really makes no sense in a Calvinistic framework.


How could it be true that God seeks that none should perish, but he planned and determined that the majority of people would?
Click to expand...

I am really not attempting to start a fight, but to quell one, and get back to the OP that the new believer Clover me posted. That is one reason why I made your references to Calvinism in bold red above, it demonstrated that your agenda is not to answer the OP but to create a conflict where there is no reason to do so.

Please take this very mild rebuke as an attempt to have a new Christian understand things without having any unnecessary conflict.
 
Danus said:
Hello Doulos Iesou. Blessing to you.

I know this is a debate area, but I'm afraid I'm not one to engage much anymore in theological debate beyond answering questions others might have, or assist in helping others find resources. if they are interested. Please forgive me. I don't want you to think I'm rude or ignoring you at all.

You did ask a question. Do I think a new Christian should study Augustine, or Luther, or Calvin? I know what you mean. Sometimes we can about drown in the deep end. LOL, but I know for me, I'd wished I'd knew of them earlier in my walk with Christ. When I did discover their writings and commentaries, I not only found understandings I could relate to, but suddenly Gods word made clearer sense to me, because finally I was not so alone in what I thought God was saying to me, and I just want to make sure others might have that same opportunity.

Yes, I am a Shameless, Hopelessly Reformed Protestant. That is my theological understanding, and it's only gotten deeper as I have grown in my relationship with Christ. It used to think others needed to understand what I knew. However, I have come to be much more forgiving these day, not only to others but also to myself. I've learned to give others room to grow in their faith and understanding as they need to.

I've come to realize that I possess nothing. I have no real knowledge other than what God sees fit to offer me, and I figure if that's true of me, then surly it is so for all His children, that God speaks to each of us in His time according too His will and our needs. That's what makes His Love for us so amazing; that no one has to have knowledge to be saved. No one have to even be cognitively aware of there surroundings or to be able to read or even think for God to speak to them; for His spirit to fill and touch them and for them to be saved and know God.

I have a little video here that I think illustrates this, at least I believe it does. In any case, what I do not want to do is be a road block for others who believe and know what they believe and know, and so I've chosen to offer that charity where I can, and that's why you might not always get a response from me, or I might not be as engaging. Again, I'm not ignoring anyone, and I do read the post. I believe God touches the least of us so much so that even they can easily understand His Glory and Power. He is in control of it all.
Click to expand...

Nice post, Danus.
Blessings to you and yours. :goodpost
 
LOL...Jonah am I. I fought it for so long. If I could tell the story. What more could of happened to make me want to do God's will.
 
Danus I wish I could exercise your patience and grace. Thank you for your post. :approve
 
By Grace said:
Calvinism is a form of systematic theology, and not a cult. For you to take my words out of context, and apply it to Calvinism is both appalling and divisive. Why are you attempting to poison a babe in Christ with your obvious hatred of things in Reformed theology? that is being insensitive to the needs of the poster, it is derailing the OP, it is being rude, and the discussion of Calvinism rightfully belongs on another thread dedicated to the Calvinism/Arminian issue. I did not see that when I looked for it, but I believe that it once was here.
Click to expand...
This is the Debate and Discussion thread and the topic is concerning Romans 9:22 which is central to the Calvinism/Arminianism issue, so my remarks here are on topic. This is not the question and answer section so my disagreement is welcome and encouraged per the section of the forum.

If I believe something to be greatly in error to the truth of the Scriptures, why would I stay quiet about it? It affected my life and faith very negatively and I wanted to give him another perspective.

Should I only post in threads so long as I agree with a certain theological bent?

The poster needs the truth and I am doing my best to derive that from the Scriptures to point out the error of Calvinism.

I am really not attempting to start a fight, but to quell one, and get back to the OP that the new believer Clover me posted.
Click to expand...
You have some way of "not starting a fight."

I have stayed on topic probably more so than anyone here, addressing the text of Romans 9:22 very in depth for the OP. All of these issues relate to how one interprets that text.

That is one reason why I made your references to Calvinism in bold red above, it demonstrated that your agenda is not to answer the OP but to create a conflict where there is no reason to do so.
Click to expand...
Calvinism is simply a theological distinction, and since it is the framework that he was seeing the text through I thought it would be a good idea to speak a little more broadly about the matter and go beyond Romans 9:22 just a bit.

Find me one thread where this doesn't happen.

Please take this very mild rebuke as an attempt to have a new Christian understand things without having any unnecessary conflict.
Click to expand...
This is the debate and discussion thread, I am allowed to post my disagreement here to the other answers given.
 
Clover me said:
How will Judas be judged? He helped fulfill the sacrifice of Christ. Is it like he never existed?
Click to expand...

The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." Mark 14:21

and again -

Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! Luke 17:1


JLB
 
How meaningless Christianity is if we're all just following a script.

Honestly, if that's true I wish God had saved us the trouble.
 
What's taking everyone so long to bring OSAS into this?

Predetermined election/ destruction draws it's strength from the thinking that people who are saved are saved by absolutely no input whatsoever from them. They will be saved, and will continue to be saved, and there's nothing they can do about it. From there it reasons that those who are damned will continue to be damned and there's nothing they can do about it, because God has decided they will not be saved.
 
Last edited:
Jethro Bodine said:
What's taking everyone so long to bring OSAS into this?

Predetermined election/ destruction draws it's strength from the thinking that people who are saved are saved by absolutely no input whatsoever from them. They will be saved, and will continue to be saved, and there's nothing they can do about it. From there it reasons that those who are damned will continue to be damned and there's nothing they can do about it.
Click to expand...
I often wonder how those that are eternal security types argue against the idea of limited free will. never could get that one.

that said to clover, im not a Calvinist, pick the one that the makes the most sense after prayer and reading the bible in context. if you are Calvinist, an arminist or in between it doesn't affect your home in heaven.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What's taking everyone so long to bring OSAS into this?

Predetermined election/ destruction draws it's strength from the thinking that people who are saved are saved by absolutely no input whatsoever from them. They will be saved, and will continue to be saved, and there's nothing they can do about it. From there it reasons that those who are damned will continue to be damned and there's nothing they can do about it.
Click to expand...

Because it's not about OSAS. It's about God creating different kinds of vessels.
I think that,
OSAS is off topic as a debate in this thread.
 
jasonc said:
that said to clover, im not a Calvinist, pick the one that the makes the most sense after prayer and reading the bible in context. if you are Calvinist, an arminist or in between it doesn't affect your home in heaven.
Click to expand...

Nice truth, Jason.
 
Deborah13 said:
Because it's not about OSAS. It's about God creating different kinds of vessels.
I think that,
OSAS is off topic as a debate in this thread.
Click to expand...
Deborah, think about it.

OSAS argues that salvation is entirely and completely a work of God and that man has no part in it's outcome. The doctrine of God making vessels that he decided beforehand will be vessels of honor also argues that work is entirely a work of God and that man has no part in it's outcome. The connection is unmistakable.
 
Deborah13 said:
Nice truth, Jason.
Click to expand...
jasonc said:
I often wonder how those that are eternal security types argue against the idea of limited free will. never could get that one.

that said to clover, im not a Calvinist, pick the one that the makes the most sense after prayer and reading the bible in context. if you are Calvinist, an arminist or in between it doesn't affect your home in heaven.
Click to expand...
I have been fed by both arminists and Calvinists.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Deborah, think about it.

OSAS argues that salvation is entirely and completely a work of God and that man has no part in it's outcome. The doctrine of God making vessels that he decided beforehand will be vessels of honor also argues that work is entirely a work of God and that man has no part in it's outcome. The connection is unmistakable.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying there isn't a connection. But they can be discussed separately and just maybe more clearly, without muddying the water. So one can see the stepping stones of the theology.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top