God makes some vessels unto honor, some unto dishonor-- are both God's elect?

[WIP]

I think Pharaoh's heart was hard before God began to use him. I quickly searched Exodus for the first encounter between Moses, Aaron, and Pharoah. It says that Pharaoh's heart grew hard, not God made pharaoh's heart hard. That text shows up later.

Exodus 7:
8Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and cast itbefore Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’”
10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
14 So the Lord said to Moses: “Pharaoh’s heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go.

 

[Eugene]

God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It seems like Pharaoh had no choice which does not make sense to me.

Dear Clover me, good question. When trials come our way a believer turns to God much like a loved child will turn to their parent after corrected. An unbeliever turns from God when a test comes, repents for the moment from fear, and when any threat is removed returns to their ways. With Pharaoh, as long as the plague was upon him he would finally agree to let God’s people go, but as soon as God would remove the trouble, Pharaoh would harden his heart as shown below.

Exo 8:13 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields.
Exo 8:14 And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

As believers our trials bring reward; not judgment. We read in 1 Pet 1:6-7 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1 Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

As with our children, we lead them into much instruction not meant to harm them, and like God everything we do should always be for their good, Rom 8:28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It seems like Pharaoh had no choice which does not make sense to me.

This is what is called "judicial hardening," and it is the same punishment given to the people of Israel. It is not an arbitrary action applied to a guiltless party, but a judgment applied to a guilty party.

Take a look at how God used it though.

1) Pharaoh was disobedient to God.
2) God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
3) In order that God's name might be proclaimed throughout the world.

1) Israel was disobedient to God.
2) God hardened (partially) the hearts of the Israelites.
3) In order that God's name might be proclaimed throughout the world.

God's Justice it appears then serves the mission of mercy and grace so that more might come to know him.

 

[By Grace]

You have to recognize that this Chapter is all about Israel and dealing with God's faithfulness to his Word in light of their rejection of the Messiah.

When you twist this text to refer to all humanity, as if God was setting up two different groups to a predetermined end, it doesn't fit at all with the wider context of Romans 9-11 and it turns God into the master puppeteer pulling and twisting the strings so that HE would get the glory.

Cults twist Scripture. Honest new believers (aka babes in Christ) ask honest questions. The difference in the two is great, and for that reason, I believe an apology is due to Clover me. Thank you

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This verse Romans 9:21 is dealing with Gods "sovereign choice". it's part of a group of verses 6 - 21. You can't just look at 21 without reading 6 to 21, because if you do you'll take 21 out of context.

Just like you can't read Romans 9 without reading it within the context of Romans 9-11 and Romans 9:6-21 in light of Romans 9:1-5 and Romans 9:22-33. This is not Paul's defense of some kind of Sovereign individual election to salvation, it is about Paul's justification of the faithfulness of God in light of Israel's unbelief in addition to a revelation as to the purposes of God in their rejection.

If you read all of this context Romans 6 to 21, it should be clear that Paul is saying God chooses whom He will Choose by and for His own sovereign right and Good pleasure to do so.

If one puts on the Calvinistic presupposition of individuality when it comes to this text, then yes that is what they will see.

Many people have a problem with this because they want to feel that they come to God and Choose their own salvation.

No, many people have a problem with this because they value the goodness of God. A God who predetermines the salvation of certain individuals must therefore through his reprobation consign billions to eternal punishment, when they could not do otherwise and had a nature that was determined because God decreed the Fall.

Calvinism makes the love of God and the goodness of God completely indistinguishable. At the end of the day you can only say this, he will do whatever it takes so that he gets the glory. It is the giant black hole of Calvinist theology.

they make all the right choices and so they credirt themselves for their own salvation, when in fact it's God, not us who chooses whom he will choose.

Weird, I thought all Christians were in agreement that it was the work of Jesus Christ that saves us. True it is only effectual for those who have faith and that can only come about through the Holy Spirit working in the proclamation of the gospel to create faith in those who hear. We just disagree that this is an irresistible work of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, Paul argues that it because of faith that we cannot boast.

"Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith." Romans 3:27 (NASB)

"For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace..." Romans 4:16 (NASB)

It accords with grace and boasting is excluded because of the nature by which salvation is received... faith! Faith biblically defined is inherently humble in nature and therefore does not boast of that which it did not do or earn, but rather received as a gift by God's grace.

Verses 1-5 in Romans 9 are dealing with Paul's Anguish over Israel, and then 6-21 God's sovereign choice, which continues a bit more in Romans 10.

Romans 9:1-5 actually sets up the topic for the next 3 chapters, which is the problem of Israel's unbelief in light of the coming of the Messiah. The question is, has God's Word failed? Paul's resounding answer of course is that no, the Word of God has not failed and then provides his defense of that statement.

In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.- Proverbs 16:9.

Here is another proof text for the absolute sovereignty of God. This one ignores the context which is speaking about a contrast between the wicked and the righteous, surely this text doesn't refer to all humanity but to the righteous. The 16 year old boy who stabbed 20 people yesterday did not have this steps established by the LORD.

We may make our own steps, and we are free to do that, but we need to know who is ultimately in control in our steping.

The LORD makes firm the steps of the one who delights in him - Psalms 37:23

Yes, God will establish and make firm the steps of those who delight in him, this does not refer to God's sovereign control over all human decisions and plans.

There are many more examples in the bible like these that clearly speak on Gods full sovereignty and His complete power and control.

Really, these seem to indicate God establishing the steps on a conditional basis, of the person being righteous and delighting in him.

Or do you think God controls the actions of murderous violent individuals?

If you're struggling with the idea of salvation being Gods choice and not yours, realize that with out Gods choice NO ONE is saved.

God made the choice to come to save all humanity in Christ's death for the sins of the world, where he is raised up just like the serpent for the people of Israel. If they but turn to him they might me saved, but if they do not then they remain under the just condemnation for their own sins.

All are condemned to eternal hell and separation from God on our own. It's only because of God that anyone is saved.

Let's reveal the Calvinist conundrum a bit more then.

1) God ordains and controls all things, including human wickedness.
2) God ordained and planned the wickedness of Adam and Eve in the Garden.
3) God is therefore responsible of the wickedness of not only Adam and Eve, but also for the resulting condition of humanity as taught by Calvinists.
4) God then punishes people for a condition that he planned and ordained that they be in, without any say or ability to be otherwise on their part.

It's as if God created these people to be purposefully helpless and wicked, so that he might do this.... get glory from either crushing them or saving them. The conclusion is inescapable and to embrace this doctrine is to lose all discernibility regarding the goodness and love of God who chose to save humanity despite their free choice to reject him.

Also, we are called to make our salvation sure; 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, - 2 Peter 1:10 We are made sure, and strong in our salvation, in our faith, in the Christian life.

Which basically means most Calvinists will have a period where they wrestle with the idea... "am I elect!?" That will likely consume them for sometime as they will question the genuineness of their faith and wonder if they are reprobate and don't have any control over their damnation or salvation.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Cults twist Scripture. Honest new believers (aka babes in Christ) ask honest questions. The difference in the two is great, and for that reason, I believe an apology is due to Clover me. Thank you

Correction, I did not say "you" as referring to him specifically.

Perhaps it would have been more clear if I said, "When one twists this text."

However, I will not back down from the charge that those who interpret this text this way after giving it some honest thought do end up twisting it quite a bit.

Calvinists twist Scripture, period.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think Pharaoh's heart was hard before God began to use him. I quickly searched Exodus for the first encounter between Moses, Aaron, and Pharoah. It says that Pharaoh's heart grew hard, not God made pharaoh's heart hard. That text shows up later.

Exodus 7:
8Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and cast itbefore Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’”
10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
14 So the Lord said to Moses: “Pharaoh’s heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go.

That text shows up later? Sorry, but it does not and that is why this is not a sufficient explanation.

The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Exodus 4:21(NASB)

The first mentioning of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is this passage, where it says that God will harden his heart. Even if this wasn't, you seemed to have skipped over v.3 of Chapter 7 where he says, "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart..."

I suggest you consider my position of judicial hardening that I posted in this thread.

 

[Clover me]

It's okay, I am learning. Thank you everyone for your post. I was lead to this site to learn and I am gaining knowledge everyday. To see people take time out of their days to share the word is a true blessing for me. I notice through life that their always seems to be that person that works against good. Even before I accepted Christ as my savior I noticed it. When I was reading I noticed the scripture about some vessels are made for honor and some for dishonor.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It's okay, I am learning. Thank you everyone for your post. I was lead to this site to learn and I am gaining knowledge everyday. To see people take time out of their days to share the word is a true blessing for me. I notice through life that their always seems to be that person that works against good. Even before I accepted Christ as my savior I noticed it.

As an early Christian I too grappled with this issue of Calvinism, and it almost destroyed my faith entirely once I discovered that I was wrong.

There are many great Calvinistic teachers who I still respect and listen to, and are very influential in the Church today. I just speak passionately against it because of my conviction for not twisting the Scriptures and understanding them in the proper light and context.

I apologize if I came across as accusing you in any way, I understand where you are at in your faith.

 

[By Grace]

How will Judas be judged? He helped fulfill the sacrifice of Christ. Is it like he never existed?

Your question is good, and depending on the question behind the question there are several ways to answer.

POSSIBLE UNDERLYING QUESTIONS

1. Are you referring to his suicide?
2. Are you referring to his betrayal of Jesus?
3 Are you referring to the possibility that he was indeed saved, but nevertheless used by Satan?
​

In reverse order, I answer .There is nothing in Scripture that definitively states if Judas was or was not a believer in Jesus Christ. Therefore to build a question on an unsure premise is committing a logical fallacy called "begging the question". I do not accuse you of logical error here, but I am stating the nature of the question so we can get to an answer, OK?

The second part of question 3 is asking about the possibility of a believer can be influenced by Satan. Since the answer is affirmative for a non believer, I will not discuss that further.

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.​

From this, there can be no doubt from Scripture that Satan used Judas like a tool to betray Judas. On what ground did Satan enter Judas? No one knows, and i am reluctant to speculate or to scare you. But we have to look at another question and that is to ask if a Christian can be tool by Satan. Scripture answers that affirmatively:

Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
​

There is no doubt that the disciple, and soon-to-be Apostle was saved, so how do we account for the sharp rebuke of Jesus? You can make it into a metaphor, allegoriize it, or accept it as truth. Since the first two possibilities actually destroy Scripture (Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken) the first two are not for the Bible-believing Christian. Therefore it is then true that Satan used the body of Peter to utter something contrary to the plan of salvation created before the beginning of the world. In my mind's eye, I imagine Jesus saying that rather forcefully, and not as calmly as a news reader in cable TV or on news radio might do.

QUESTION 2
That seems to be asking if there is any sin done against Jesus is so heinous as to be unforgivable. Surprisingly, the answer is "no". In our prior, unredeemed life we sinned when we gave God the Father a "last name" or we used the name of our Savior as a swear word. Truth be told, some of us are still beset by that old habit.

But Jesus said that there was only one sin hat is unforgivable, and that is blasphemy against Holy Spirit. That is another discussion for another time; suffice it to say that because you are indeed a Christian, that does not apply to you.

QUESTION 1
Indeed by definition, suicide is self murder. And there are several passage in Scripture that tell us that murderers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But does that then mean that self murder is unforgivable? Since Jesus stated tha there is only ONE unforgivable sin, I am believing that the act of murder or self-murder is forgivable; I also believe that suicide is often the result of depression because it is surely NOT a rational action.

What then is the answer?Lets let Scripture speak and not opinion.

John 10: 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
​

Verse 30 is the authority by which Jesus makes the statements in the previous verses, and it is also the reason why the good Jews wanted to stone Him for blasphemy because (in their eyes a mere mortal) Jesus claimed equality with God.

To make this short, I cut to the chase. Only the sheep of Jesus hear His voice, and follow Him. Jesus said very emphatically that NO PERSON, NO SPIRITUAL BEING indeed NOTHING shall be able to pluck the believer from the hand of God. Notice it is said twice, so I guess Jesus REALLY means it, huh?

It is also stated in the OT as well

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
​

In case you did not know, that "palm engraving" is another word for a tattoo. Therefore as a believer, you are forever in the hands of God, and if Judas was a believer, then so also is he.

 

[Danus]

It's okay, I am learning. Thank you everyone for your post. I was lead to this site to learn and I am gaining knowledge everyday. To see people take time out of their days to share the word is a true blessing for me. I notice through life that their always seems to be that person that works against good. Even before I accepted Christ as my savior I noticed it. When I was reading I noticed the scripture about some vessels are made for honor and some for dishonor.

No problem Clover Me.

As you can see this scripture leads to an age old question; Are we saved because we did, or are doing, something? or are we saved because God does something? Lots of themes like election and predestination come up. Some of it is not easy to accept on the surface, but it does deserve further study, and I encourage you to do that. If you would like some references to some good reformed theology sites, let me know and I'd be more than happy to send you some good links. Or, you can check out well known sources that are out there today like Ligoner Ministries to name one.

I am what some here will call a "Calvinist", but then that term is only used as a derogatory term to attack people like me. You might try looking up a little more on John Calvin if you want, but also Luther, and St Augustine. They have a lot to say in regards to your question, but before I leave this area

I believe whole heartily that the bible affirms, and Romans 9:6-21 is just further affirmation to me, that God chooses us. Here are some point I'd invite you to ponder in your relationship with Christ.

1. We are all sinners. No one is righteous, or can be righteous enough by anything we do, to deserve to be saved. We can desire to be saved, but do not choose it. However, our desire for salvation is by Gods will not our will.

2. From the whole lot of sinful mankind, God decides who He will choose to be saved. It is His right, and It is perfectly Just for Him to do so. We struggle with this idea because it does not seem fair, but the gospel focuses on salvation, not damnation. Fact is, anyone can be saved, not everyone is, and this is a biblical fact.

3. We are free to make choices within Gods election, but any choices we may freely make are ultimately guided and shaped by Gods Will and not our own. This is to say, that we are not creating our own destiny; rather our will is shaped and guided by Gods will to conform to His plan.

This is a mystery indeed, but the bible speaks often about it. Romans 9:6-21 is no exception, and clearly speaks to it. We should not have a problem with this, If in fact our faith is in God alone, and we believe that God is all powerful, all knowing, and seeks that none should parish but that all man be brought into a right relationship with God, it should not be discouraging that while some will not be brought in to a right relationship with Him, none are to begin with and we are not privileged or capable to know the working of God in this way.

May God richly bless you in your study. If there is anything i can offer to help gain a perspective from a reformed view, don't hesitates to ask.

 

[WIP]

That text shows up later? Sorry, but it does not and that is why this is not a sufficient explanation.

The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Exodus 4:21(NASB)

The first mentioning of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is this passage, where it says that God will harden his heart. Even if this wasn't, you seemed to have skipped over v.3 of Chapter 7 where he says, "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart..."

I suggest you consider my position of judicial hardening that I posted in this thread.

Thank you for the correction. I was running on my memory which is why I said "I think pharaoh's heart was hard...." and apparently my "quick" search failed me. I apologize for the error.

 

[reba]

Clover me

This long on going battle has yet to find a SIDE in my heart...
I do not see Judas as having a choice. God hardened Pharaoh. Also these guys...
Jos 11:18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings.
Jos 11:19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle.
Jos 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might

Yet again ?
1Sa_6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

I trust the Lord by Faith the measure of faith He has given me not of my own.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thank you for the correction. I was running on my memory which is why I said "I think pharaoh's heart was hard...." and apparently my "quick" search failed me. I apologize for the error.

No worries, I'll try to be more gentle in the future with the correction.

Blessings,
DI

 

[Danus]

Here is a piece from John MacArthur that fits right into this. Some of you might like,

How do we understand Romans 9:22, "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"?
http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA183

Question:
The Bible speaks of vessels of mercy and vessels of destruction, which God specifically made for His purpose (Romans 9:21-23). Does that mean people like Judas were made by God for destruction?

John:
That's a very provocative question and of course you get ultimately into whole area of God's sovereignty, but let me show you something most interesting about Romans 9:21.

Paul is saying here that God is sovereign. Paul is clearly saying that, there is no other message here. Verse 18, "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens." The argument comes, "Well it doesn't seem fair," and in verse 21 Paul says, "Hath not the potter power over the clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" The potter can make a vessel any way he wants. He's the potter and the vessel is simply clay.

But I want you to notice what happens in verse twenty-two. "What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory,"

Now I don't want to get too deep and I just want to give you one or two thoughts. Notice, there are vessels of wrath, at the end of verse 22, fitted to destruction. In verse 23, vessels of mercywhich He had prepared to glory. Now in the Greek you have two serious distinctions here in the Greek tense and you must recognize them. I should say in the Greek voice which is similar to English. You realize the difference between active and passive? In active, the subject does the acting and in passive the subject receives the action. Now notice, verse 22 is a passive, vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. God is not the subject. The verb is passive. Verse 23, vessels of mercy which He had prepared to glory. God, there, is the subject and the verb is active.

Listen, God says I prepare vessels for glory, but vessels are prepared for destruction. And what is happening there in the Greek tense, is God is taking one step away from the responsibility of preparing a person from His creative act for hell. God doesn't take that responsibility. He says there are vessels that have been prepared for destruction. And if you study the Bible very carefully you will see that every where in Scripture the responsibility for such preparation lies right in the very heart of the man who goes to hell. Is that right? Jesus said, "You will not come to me, that you might have life." At the end of the Book of Revelation He says, "Come, and let him that is athirst come." And so God says, I fit for glory, but vessels are fitted for destruction. Judas was not created by God to occupy hell.

Another reason I know that is that hell was never even made for human beings. It was made for the devil and his angels. Judas went there because Judas chose to betray Christ, chose to reject the truth, chose to pay a sad, sad price.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No problem Clover Me.

As you can see this scripture leads to an age old question; Are we saved because we did, or are doing, something? or are we saved because God does something?

We receive by faith the work that Christ has done for us on the Cross.

If a king gives his riches to a poor man and he receives it, does the poor man go home shouting, "I did it!!!! I earned this fortune by my own power of accepting!!!" That would be absurd now wouldn't it?

It goes even beyond that because the Holy Spirit works through the gospel to create faith in the hearts of those who hear the gospel, this work as I mentioned is not irresistible but makes it so that the whole process is one of grace.

Lots of themes like election and predestination come up. Some of it is not easy to accept on the surface, but it does deserve further study, and I encourage you to do that.

I too would recommend studying this topic, but to do so after one has matured in their faith a bit more and then to consider both views and not just from a Calvinistic source as I did at the onset of my faith journey.

These are difficult questions, and if we aren't careful they will be completely decided by the preconceived views we acquire in our mind.

If you would like some references to some good reformed theology sites, let me know and I'd be more than happy to send you some good links. Or, you can check out well known sources that are out there today like Ligoner Ministries to name one.

I have listened to countless teachings from R.C. Sproul from back when I was a Calvinist, they lead me to a place of deep confusion almost to the point of losing my faith.

I recommend caution.

I am what some here will call a "Calvinist", but then that term is only used as a derogatory term to attack people like me.

When I use the term I don't use it in a manner that I think is derogatory. Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin, it is just an easily recognizable theological distinction for those who hold to reformed soteriology such as yourself.

You might try looking up a little more on John Calvin if you want, but also Luther, and St Augustine.

Would you really recommend a new believer start with those guys? :P

I believe whole heartily that the bible affirms, and Romans 9:6-21 is just further affirmation to me, that God chooses us. Here are some point I'd invite you to ponder in your relationship with Christ.

Scripture of course does say that we have been chosen, but much like the people of Israel we are chosen corporately. And again much like the children of Israel our stance in the Covenant is sustained by faith, obedience to the Covenant and a part so long as we are found in Christ our Covenant Representative.

To say that God chose me and not someone else (who died an unbeliever) for the purposes of his glory is incorrect.

1. We are all sinners. No one is righteous, or can be righteous enough by anything we do, to deserve to be saved. We can desire to be saved, but do not choose it. However, our desire for salvation is by Gods will not our will.

No disagreement here. This is not uniquely Calvinistic.

2. From the whole lot of sinful mankind, God decides who He will choose to be saved.

Don't forget the other side of the coin, if he decides who gets saved he also chooses who doesn't.

It is His right, and It is perfectly Just for Him to do so.

Is it perfectly just and good for him to create a being that could not do otherwise, setup the preconditions for his inability and then punish him for that which he had no other choice but to do?

It's like shooting the man who picked up the gun, except he had no choice but to pick it up. In this case he was born.

We struggle with this idea because it does not seem fair, but the gospel focuses on salvation, not damnation. Fact is, anyone can be saved, not everyone is, and this is a biblical fact.

Technically in Calvinistic theology only those for whom Christ particularly died have the possibility of being saved. It is just from your perspective that "anyone can be saved," as you don't know who the elect are.

3. We are free to make choices within Gods election, but any choices we may freely make are ultimately guided and shaped by Gods Will and not our own.

He determines it, yet we are supposedly "free" to make choices? More like humans are free to perform actions, but the actions committed are not done so freely as they are determined and ultimately done by God.

Compatibilism really makes no sense in a Calvinistic framework.

This is a mystery indeed, but the bible speaks often about it. Romans 9:6-21 is no exception, and clearly speaks to it. We should not have a problem with this, If in fact our faith is in God alone, and we believe that God is all powerful, all knowing, and seeks that none should parish but that all man be brought into a right relationship with God, it should not be discouraging that while some will not be brought in to a right relationship with Him, none are to begin with and we are not privileged or capable to know the working of God in this way.

How could it be true that God seeks that none should perish, but he planned and determined that the majority of people would?

 

[Danus]

We receive by faith the work that Christ has done for us on the Cross.

If a king gives his riches to a poor man and he receives it, does the poor man go home shouting, "I did it!!!! I earned this fortune by my own power of accepting!!!" That would be absurd now wouldn't it?

It goes even beyond that because the Holy Spirit works through the gospel to create faith in the hearts of those who hear the gospel, this work as I mentioned is not irresistible but makes it so that the whole process is one of grace.


I too would recommend studying this topic, but to do so after one has matured in their faith a bit more and then to consider both views and not just from a Calvinistic source as I did at the onset of my faith journey.

These are difficult questions, and if we aren't careful they will be completely decided by the preconceived views we acquire in our mind.


I have listened to countless teachings from R.C. Sproul from back when I was a Calvinist, they lead me to a place of deep confusion almost to the point of losing my faith.

I recommend caution.


When I use the term I don't use it in a manner that I think is derogatory. Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin, it is just an easily recognizable theological distinction for those who hold to reformed soteriology such as yourself.


Would you really recommend a new believer start with those guys? :tongue


Scripture of course does say that we have been chosen, but much like the people of Israel we are chosen corporately. And again much like the children of Israel our stance in the Covenant is sustained by faith, obedience to the Covenant and a part so long as we are found in Christ our Covenant Representative.

To say that God chose me and not someone else (who died an unbeliever) for the purposes of his glory is incorrect.


No disagreement here. This is not uniquely Calvinistic.


Don't forget the other side of the coin, if he decides who gets saved he also chooses who doesn't.


Is it perfectly just and good for him to create a being that could not do otherwise, setup the preconditions for his inability and then punish him for that which he had no other choice but to do?

It's like shooting the man who picked up the gun, except he had no choice but to pick it up. In this case he was born.


Technically in Calvinistic theology only those for whom Christ particularly died have the possibility of being saved. It is just from your perspective that "anyone can be saved," as you don't know who the elect are.


He determines it, yet we are supposedly "free" to make choices? More like humans are free to perform actions, but the actions committed are not done so freely as they are determined and ultimately done by God.

Compatibilism really makes no sense in a Calvinistic framework.


How could it be true that God seeks that none should perish, but he planned and determined that the majority of people would?

Hello Doulos Iesou. Blessing to you.

I know this is a debate area, but I'm afraid I'm not one to engage much anymore in theological debate beyond answering questions others might have, or assist in helping others find resources. if they are interested. Please forgive me. I don't want you to think I'm rude or ignoring you at all.

You did ask a question. Do I think a new Christian should study Augustine, or Luther, or Calvin? I know what you mean. Sometimes we can about drown in the deep end. LOL, but I know for me, I'd wished I'd knew of them earlier in my walk with Christ. When I did discover their writings and commentaries, I not only found understandings I could relate to, but suddenly Gods word made clearer sense to me, because finally I was not so alone in what I thought God was saying to me, and I just want to make sure others might have that same opportunity.

Yes, I am a Shameless, Hopelessly Reformed Protestant. That is my theological understanding, and it's only gotten deeper as I have grown in my relationship with Christ. It used to think others needed to understand what I knew. However, I have come to be much more forgiving these day, not only to others but also to myself. I've learned to give others room to grow in their faith and understanding as they need to.

I've come to realize that I possess nothing. I have no real knowledge other than what God sees fit to offer me, and I figure if that's true of me, then surly it is so for all His children, that God speaks to each of us in His time according too His will and our needs. That's what makes His Love for us so amazing; that no one has to have knowledge to be saved. No one have to even be cognitively aware of there surroundings or to be able to read or even think for God to speak to them; for His spirit to fill and touch them and for them to be saved and know God.

I have a little video here that I think illustrates this, at least I believe it does. In any case, what I do not want to do is be a road block for others who believe and know what they believe and know, and so I've chosen to offer that charity where I can, and that's why you might not always get a response from me, or I might not be as engaging. Again, I'm not ignoring anyone, and I do read the post. I believe God touches the least of us so much so that even they can easily understand His Glory and Power. He is in control of it all.

 

[reba]

Wow Praise the Lord God...... Thank you Jesus ....

Thanks Danus.....​

 

[Clover me]

Amazing!

 

[Lady Terra]

It seems to me if God has a plan for you, he will cause you to do his will. Look at what happen to Jonah.