God will not convict believers of sin!

[Jethro Bodine]

This is just not you ...

Lol, I thought you'd think it was.

 

[Brother Mike]

Right. That's called an uninformed conscience. That's what the Romans 14 passage you bring up is about. Paul says the person who has a check in his conscience about eating something lacks knowledge, or lacks accurate knowledge. But the person who has that knowledge has a conscience that allows him to eat, not a lack of a conscience. Just an educated conscience. So we can see from that passage that conscience has many inputs from which it operates. The Holy Spirit is definitely one of those.


Our own heart holds on because their is other information from other sources educating our conscience. We don't necessarily hold on because God does not speak to us that way, but because there are other voices in competition with his voice educating our conscience.



I disagree completely. It is exactly the conscience that allows us to eat, just as it is the conscience that doesn't allow us to eat.



It's both, information and feeling. God teaches me truths, and my conscience--if I accept that truth--becomes programmed to confirm that truth to me. Conscience often washes over us in the form of feelings.

When God reveals things that are true to me I become convinced of that truth (if I want to be), and my conscience gets educated in that truth accordingly. I'm confident no one has any problem accepting that. But if that which is true that is being revealed to me is in regard to wrong-doing, that convincing will have an element of shame and judgment about it and so we attach the connotation of conviction to it. Now all of a sudden people do have a problem with God working that way and want to say it isn't that way, and can't be that way, even though it's the exact same thing going on--God educating my mind and my conscience about what is true. I don't think that's fair and rational thought to differentiate between the two on the basis that one is good, and the other is bad from a human stand point.

OK, I understand now where your coming from. I should have asked from the start. My fault.

So, lets say I do something bad, like cheat on the wife. The process of feeling "Convicted" Feeling miserable for what I did do, is part of the process of my conscience since I violated it. Since I am born again, then my conscience and new heart God gave me see's just how aweful a thing I had done.
If I was not saved, then I might not think twice about it.

Am I understanding this?

Also, I did not type out fully what I was thinking. Our faith may not be in the place that would allow our conscience to eat something if it had been offered to an idol for example. That is what I meant to type out.

Thank you for explaining all that in good detail. I hope I am getting it as you explained it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, I understand now where your coming from. I should have asked from the start. My fault.

So, lets say I do something bad, like cheat on the wife. The process of feeling "Convicted" Feeling miserable for what I did do, is part of the process of my conscience since I violated it. Since I am born again, then my conscience and new heart God gave me see's just how aweful a thing I had done.
If I was not saved, then I might not think twice about it.

Am I understanding this?

Perfectly.

 

[Brother Mike]

Perfectly.

Ok then, I understand where your coming from. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. I have felt the same way many times you described.

Be blessed Brother Jethro.

 

[Chopper]

They are praying for the kingdom to come, has the kingdom come?
Was the new covenant in effect at that time or were they still under the law?
Had Jesus died for all our sins at that time?

That prayer of Jesus was preparing His hearers a model of praying for then and the future. Yes, the Kingdom to come, AND Daily bread! And a lesson of forgiveness. The prayer ends with "forever". Under the Law? They were being prepared how to function in the New Covenant. In many cases with the teachings of Jesus, He has an eye on the future.

 

[ezra]

That prayer of Jesus was preparing His hearers a model of praying for then and the future. Yes, the Kingdom to come, AND Daily bread! And a lesson of forgiveness. The prayer ends with "forever". Under the Law? They were being prepared how to function in the New Covenant. In many cases with the teachings of Jesus, He has an eye on the future.

sure glad you called it the model prayer...so many call it the Lord prayer john 17 is the LORD prayer.

 

[JLB]

This is just not you ...

Agreed!

No more Meathead!

Bring back the real Jethro!

No Country for Old Men!!!

 

[posthuman]

The conviction of sin has, for hundreds of years, been a very important part of the day-to-day life of believers. It might come as a shock to you, therefore, to find out that the Bible has no record of a believer at any point being convicted of sin. There are only two verses that strongly allude to the conviction of sin (John 8:7, Acts 2:37) and two that outright mention it (John 16:8-11, Jude 1:15), however all four verses refer to those who do not believe in Jesus.

I’d like to propose something to you. The Holy Spirit will never convict you (a believer) of your sins!

Just to clarify, when I say never I mean never.
*********************
These words begin a very interesting discussion on the subject.

what exactly do you think was going on when Peter had a vision three times in a row instructing him not to any longer call unclean what God had called clean?

 

[posthuman]

no one is pardoned who has not been first convicted.

condemnation is taken away in Him; the truth of our iniquities is not.

 

[Northman]

Doesn't he believe in the forgiveness of God?

While i can say yes mostly, there is still obviously some reservation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While i can say yes mostly, there is still obviously some reservation.

Yes, I agree. And so the answer is to build his faith up in the forgiveness of God, not make the conviction of his wrong doing go away by saying God doesn't do that.

 

[Northman]

Yes, I agree. And so the answer is to build his faith up in the forgiveness of God, not make the conviction of his wrong doing go away by saying God doesn't do that.

Something seems amiss here. Remember im not talking about the same thing everyone else is discussing in the thread. I was talking about the original article. The guy who wrote it seemed to me to understand perfectly how people can hear things improperly, not that you shouldnt hear anything at all. How could anyone come to understand God's forgiveness when they start to see him as nothing but against them?

 

[posthuman]

How could anyone come to understand God's forgiveness when they start to see him as nothing but against them?

& how can you seek His forgiveness if you consider yourself to have nothing to be forgiven of? how can you love mercy if you have no need of it?
i'm of the mind that we're mistaken if we think it's us who teach ourselves what is righteous and what is it's antithesis. 'conscience,' fie. i had need of a regenerated one when He found me -- and it sure wasn't me that regenerated myself.

 

[ezrider]

I have not read through this entire thread, but I have read through some of the posts, and I think I understand what the OP is getting at. Many of the posts that I have read fully look at this proposition from the state of fallen man. How shall we repent and and seek forgiveness unless we have first been convicted of what we have done wrong, and there seems to be a paradox in there; like which came first, the chicken or the egg. But maybe to better understand the point of the OP, we should leave behind the state of fallen man, and examine what we know prior to the fall, when Adam was yet in paradise in the garden of Eden, and the Lord walked with Adam in the cool of the day.

Adam was first given one commandment, do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die (Gen 2:17). That was the Lord's involvement, giving a commandment with the accompanying penalty for disobeying it. In the day when Adam did eat from the tree of knowledge, it was not the Lord that convicted him of his error, but rather Adam because he had eaten then knew his own shame and did try and hide from God (Gen 3:8). But when God came looking for Adam, the Lord did not first say why have you eaten from the tree of knowledge; but rather where are you? Adam replied he was afraid and hiding because he was naked. Then the Lord asks Adam, who told you that you were naked? Only then does the Lord ask if he had eaten from the tree he was commanded not to touch (Gen 3:9-11). If the Lord was the one that convicted Adam of his sin, why would the Lord then ask Adam who told you that you were naked?

Interestingly enough, when Adam tells God that he is naked and afraid, when the Lord asks him if he had eaten from the tree, Adam did not simply confess his wrong doing, but instead he turned and blamed the women for causing him to eat (Gen 3:12).

I wonder if Adam even knew or understood of grace, forgiveness and repentance while he was yet in paradise. It was only by the tree of knowledge that Adam ever knew that he was naked and afraid. And in this state it was Adam who hid himself from the presence of the Lord. It was not the Lord who removed himself from Adam.

 

[jeff77]

I always thought it was the Holy Spirit, but I guess it could be the conscience. Then again didn't God give us our conscience? The main point being that somehow God wants us to know that sin is bad.

 

[turnorburn]

Found this today
Does the holy spirit convict the believer of sin?
Have you ever heard a pastor and teacher or preacher tell you that the Holy Spirit does not convict us of Sin, but only of Righteousness, in reference to John 16:8-11?: "And when he comes, he will CONVICT the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged"
There's a great danger present in the Body of Christ among those that have, in their teaching and walk, done away with receiving unto obedience the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit, as well as that of fellow believers. It diminishes accountability and even encourages disobedience. It has even caused scriptures to be reinterpreted and even thrown out altogether by proponents of this false doctrine. Remember, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump of dough, spreading like metastatic cancer. So the next time someone tells you that the Holy Spirit doesn't convict of sin and thereby build us up, know that they're lying to you. Let us embrace and take heed to the conviction of the truth by faith unto full obedience.

http://religion.rantrave.com/Rave/Does-the-Holy-Spirit-Convict-the-Believer-of-Sin.aspx

Read the entire article i found it quite interesting..

tob

 

[jeff77]

I agree with a lot of what you said there tob. Also what about when we face temptation? Doesn't the Holy Spirit have a role in keeping us from sinning? Like when I am tempted to sin I will here the HS say "don't do that".

 

[turnorburn]

You'll find more than a few doctrines on Christian message boards Jeff.. Jiminy Cricket and let your conscience be your guild is one of them.

tob

 

[jeff77]

So what about before we become Christians, God created us with the ability to know right from wrong...right? Is that where the conscience comes in? I'm just trying to understand.

 

[turnorburn]

So what about before we become Christians, God created us with the ability to know right from wrong...right? Is that where the conscience comes in? I'm just trying to understand.

Mans conscience was corrupted after the fall, determining right from wrong took on a twisted view, man no longer sought that which was good. As regenerated Christians we have a guild to lead us into all truth, and that is an every day battle, Paul put it this way in.

II Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

tob