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God's Eternal Law and The Law of Moses

Eugene said:
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death (Ten Commandments), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, . . . . which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (Are we now under the law or the ministration of the Spirit?)
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 3:21 . . if there had been a law given which could have given life (We might add "Retain life"), verily righteousness should have been by the law.
I wrote this following thread sometime ago that goes a bit deeper into what I've already said.
The Established Law
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-established-law.68479/#post-1300031

No, the ministration of the Spirit is in operation to us which are in Christ.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth," whether it be to obtain righteousness, or to retain it - Romans 10:4. The law could not give life; and, of course, it cannot sustain life nor nourish it after it is received. "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" - Romans 3:31. Faith brings deliverance to a sinner, whom the law condemned but could not save. Thus, it agrees with the law. But that law, which "was weak through the flesh," has nothing to do with saving him or keeping him or perfecting his walk -
Rom 8:3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Dear Sister wondering, knowing that Jesus is the end of the law to all that believe, what do you believe? Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
It is no longer we are subject to the eternal fight of flesh against Spirit, it is God in us doing the work even for our being conformed into the very image of Christ.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Thank you so much for your reply. :wave2
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Jesus is not the end of the law. He Himself said that He did not come to abolish the law.
The Moral Law could not end because God is a moral being. I agree with th1b.taylor .
God's eternal law is forever.
The law of Moses is forever.

It depends on what one means by the Law of Moses.
This is what we're here to find out...at least I am.
 
Eugene

I meant to address this comment in your post no. 20:

Dear Sister wondering, knowing that Jesus is the end of the law to all that believe, what do you believe? Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
It is no longer we are subject to the eternal fight of flesh against Spirit, it is God in us doing the work even for our being conformed into the very image of Christ.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Thank you so much for your reply.


Christ is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
In the O.T. persons were righteous of their own believing and doing of God's will.
I'm sure you know this, if necessary I'll post scripture. I picked the Lounge to save some time.
NOW, in the New Covenant we are made righteous through Christ. I agree with this, and this is my understanding of righteousness, which I can support with scripture.

I do not though believe that we are no longer subject to the fight between flesh and spirit.
This sounds like you never sin...
I feel like I still sin. God is so pure, He's very sensitive to sin and we are sinful creatures trying to live in our new nature.

God works in us to will for us His good pleasure. But do we always listen and obey?
Do we still have the free will to disobey? I believe we do and this is our battle.

I should say that the longer we are Christian and live for God, the less we will sin because we become more and more aware of when we do.
 
Papyrus_dust said:
They're one and the same. The law of God is called the law of Moses because Moses received the law on Mt.Sinai. He is not the giver of the law. He was the receiver.
Christians are not under the penalty of the Mitzvot. More than 10 commands, which are moral codes still applicable because they speak of our conduct toward others and God. But rather 613 laws comprised the Mitzvot, or Law of God in the OT .
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
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Hi P
You're post confused me a little.
Agreed on the Law of Moses. God gave this Law, which to me is the 10 commandments.

Then you mention "more than 10 commandments", which are moral codes, which are still applicable because they speak of our conduct toward others and God.
Which would these be? Do you mean how to treat neighbors in case of problems, like stealing and the such in the O.T.? Which would be the 613 laws.
I believe this would fall under CIVIL LAW, and not Moral Law.

Could you clarify please?
I only find this important because I believe Jesus did NOT abolish the Moral Law,
but the ceremonial and civil laws have been abolished - unless one is Jewish and wishes to live under those ceremonial and civil laws. Which some do.
 
Jim Parker said:
It is also my understanding that they are the same. The way God wants people to interact with each other is universal.

BUT
There laws in the Torah which have to do specifically with Israel and the Levitical priesthood, the rubrics of worship and religious feasts.
AND
The Law of Moses/Torah is a covenant between God and Israel. It is written in the form of a Suzerain - Vassal treaty between a high king and a vassal king which was essentially standard at that time in the near east. (just an FYI)

iakov the fool

ANd why did this come out double-spaced??????
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I'd have to agree.

And show that computer who's boss!
 
jasonc said:
no, they aren't as the mosaic law incorporated the early commands of God. remember the torah also incuded a diet, a command to partake in several feasts with death for those that didn't and also the Sabbath. of that I don't have to rest on the shabat, I can ignore the feasts of Passover, tabernacles and others that have the penalty.
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The Mosaic Law is not the 10 commandments?
 
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wondering said:
Hi P
You're post confused me a little.
Agreed on the Law of Moses. God gave this Law, which to me is the 10 commandments.

Then you mention "more than 10 commandments", which are moral codes, which are still applicable because they speak of our conduct toward others and God.
Which would these be? Do you mean how to treat neighbors in case of problems, like stealing and the such in the O.T.? Which would be the 613 laws.
I believe this would fall under CIVIL LAW, and not Moral Law.

Could you clarify please?
I only find this important because I believe Jesus did NOT abolish the Moral Law,
but the ceremonial and civil laws have been abolished - unless one is Jewish and wishes to live under those ceremonial and civil laws. Which some do.
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You were correct when referring back to my stating the 10 commandments are the moral codes and are still applicable.
 
wondering said:
I do not though believe that we are no longer subject to the fight between flesh and spirit.
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Really? To me it all comes down to Rom 8:1 after all Paul suffered in Romans Chapter Seven.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!!!!
Is there purpose in following after the Spirit instead of the flesh? Of course.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
wondering said:
This sounds like you never sin...
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Not to argue, but do you consider yourself born of God, or something to be possibly attained if you end up having no sin at the end of this age?
What do you say of the following scriptures?
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but He that is begotten of God (This is Jesus) keepeth himself (Us- Jesus' body), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
I'll just give my paraphrase of this and say that we who are in Christ (Believed on Jesus) are seen by our Father as having Jesus' righteousness in our new nature as our justification.

Blessings in Christ Jesus. :wave2
 
wondering said:
It depends on what one means by the Law of Moses.
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The law was added til the Seed should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

By saying "till" it's clear that the law was temporarily in effect until the Messiah came.

However, the 10 commandments were in effect, long before Moses was born.

The Sabbath began in Genesis.

Abraham kept His laws and Commandments 430 years before the law of Moses.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4

The 10 commandments certainly didn't cease with Moses law.

Now we walk obeying the Spirit within, who leads us to practice righteousness and walk in the truth, loving our Lord and loving His children.


JLB
 
wondering said:
Jesus is not the end of the law.
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Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
We are righteous because we have called upon Jesus; not how good we have been
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
wondering said:
He Himself said that He did not come to abolish the law.
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And Jesus did not destroy the law: He fulfilled it.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
And Rom 8:4 says that it is God working to fulfill the law in us (Not by us) who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I might say: Oh I'll keep the law and be in the will of God; no I won't. I'd only prove the nature (The old man) I have outside of that new life we have in Christ. Read Romans Chapter Seven, and then Romans 8:1. Again, there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.
 
wondering said:
Jesus is not the end of the law. He Himself said that He did not come to abolish the law.
The Moral Law could not end because God is a moral being. I agree with th1b.taylor .
God's eternal law is forever.
The law of Moses is forever.

It depends on what one means by the Law of Moses.
This is what we're here to find out...at least I am.
Click to expand...
Correct wondering, The moral code of God has never been done away with (Rom. 3:31). What Christ has done was to put us under God's Grace instead of under penalty of breaking the law that required death as the payment. We all have broken the Laws of God, and a just and Holy God can not allow the breaking of the Law to go unpunished, So God paid the penalty for us in Jesus Christ and even better, He put the Laws in to our minds and heart with His Spirit so that we would turn to Christ (our eternal priest). For we are now conscious of breaking God's laws and that leads us to Christ (which is God's grace and New covenant) for eternal security. The Epistle to the Romans and the letter to the Hebrews. Explains all this...and all this by Faith! PTL :o)
 
Douglas Summers said:
What Christ has done was to put us under God's Grace instead of under penalty of breaking the law that required death as the payment.
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That's a good point to discuss.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

We are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

We are now under obligation to grace.

Grace is the power of God given to us, that enables us to do what we could not do without it.

In short, grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace, that empowers us to live in dominion over the sin within our flesh, so that we can live in obedience to the righteous life of Jesus Christ within us.

Since we have been given much, then much is required of us.

Hebrews says it this way.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


Some have been mistakenly taught, that grace is a spiritual credit card that allows us to live in sin, without any consequences, all the while not knowing they are insulting the Spirit of grace, and counting the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified a common thing.




JLB
 
JLB said:
That's a good point to discuss.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

We are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

We are now under obligation to grace.

Grace is the power of God given to us, that enables us to do what we could not do without it.

In short, grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace, that empowers us to live in dominion over the sin within our flesh, so that we can live in obedience to the righteous life of Jesus Christ within us.

Since we have been given much, then much is required of us.

Hebrews says it this way.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


Some have been mistakenly taught, that grace is a spiritual credit card that allows us to live in sin, without any consequences, all the while not knowing they are insulting the Spirit of grace, and counting the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified a common thing.




JLB
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That was good JLB.
 
I have quite a collection of Bible study resources. I offer this to assist in our discussion.

Did Jesus Abolish the Law?

Many professing Christians believe that Jesus abolished the law, God's ten commandments, on the cross at Calvary. Is this true? Well, didn't Jesus actually say Himself that He came NOT to abolish the law? Let's take a look at that Bible verse ..... Matthew 5:17 .....'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.' ..... So Jesus confirms Himself that His job wasn't to come and abolish the law, but to fulfill. "Oh but He did fulfill the law, so we don't need to keep it."

Do you ever hear Christians saying this? Do you think it yourself? Jesus fulfilled the law, so we don't have to keep it? Have you ever wondered what that word "fulfil" actually means? If you look at the original greek word for fulfil, it actually means to "fill to the top" or to "cause to abound". In other words, to bring full meaning to the law, or to exhalt it! Now for clarity, let's reword that Bible verse with the new meaning ..... 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to BRING FULL MEANING TO IT AND EXALT IT.' ..... The prophet Isaiah pointed to this in Isaiah 42:21 .....'The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.'

Romans 3:31 .....'Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'
Teaching continues here , http://www.thebible-tencommandments.com/did-jesus-abolish-law.html
 
Douglas Summers said:
If it were possible (but it is not for man) to follow the Ten Commandment's Holy Commands by Spiritual fiat, there would be no need to add 613 addendum's to the Ten Commandments. For all of the Law in it's Spiritual context is to love the Lord and your neighbor without exceptions. or ( without ever using the conjunction "but".)
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I was only showing that of all 613 plus laws as how they are divided up in different groups and the moral ones that we are to continue in even today until Christ returns. The moral laws all fall under the greatest commandment of love.
 
Old Mosaic Covenant...............................New Spiritual Covenant

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14.....................NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7, 9:1...............SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7, 10:1-9
Came by Moses... John 1:17.....................Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6, 9:15
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3.............Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16
Law of Moses... Acts 13:38-39..................Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6...................Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2.............................Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1.................. Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6...........................Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7.......................Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9...............Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17.......................The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18......................NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12...........UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13...............ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19..........................PERFECT... Heb. 7:19
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19.................Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48.........................Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10.......................NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3.................FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3...............PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3........................SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11.............MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5............HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2, 11
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11...........................Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18........POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13......................ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13.............Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13................Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15................SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19..............Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28.........................COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12
NO justification... Acts 13:39....................BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10.....................REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13........................CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7....................Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8, 5:3..............ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19
 
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