God's Eternal Law and The Law of Moses

[JLB]

Amen brother.
Jesus did not come to revoke the law, he came to fill it up. (fulfill the law)

Let's examine what was said.


17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

• one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Did Jesus fulfill ?

Again, we see the word "till" associated with the law of Moses and it end with Messiah.


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

Has the Seed come?


And again

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

• The law and the prophets were until John.

JLB

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Let's look at what would then be the question. Is there scripture to prove Jesus did not fulfill the law ?


Adam Clark Commentary Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John - The law and the prophets continued to be the sole teachers till John came, who first began to proclaim the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and now, he who wishes to be made a partaker of the blessings of that kingdom must rush speedily into it; as there will be but a short time before an utter destruction shall fall upon this ungodly race. They who wish to be saved must imitate those who take a city by storm - rush into it, without delay, as the Romans are about to do into Jerusalem. See also on Matthew 11:12

Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
Entereth violently into it (εις αυτην βιαζεται — eis autēn biazetai). A corresponding saying occurs in Matthew 11:12 in a very different context. In both the verb βιαζεται — biazetai occurs also, but nowhere else in the N.T. It is present middle here and can be middle or passive in Matthew, which see note. It is rare in late prose. Deissmann (Bible Studies, p. 258) cites an inscription where βιαζομαι — biazomai is reflexive middle and used absolutely. Here the meaning clearly is that everyone forces his way into the kingdom of God, a plea for moral enthusiasm and spiritual passion and energy that some today affect to despise.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Torah is a reference to the first five books of the Bible and is referred to as the law, and was written by Moses.

The Old Testament, as we call it, is primarily composed of the law, the prophets and the psalms, along with what some call, "the writings", which would be like proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job.

Also, as you are aware of, there is the apocrypha.

The law of Moses is also referred to as the law.

The context is what determines which is being referred to.

When the author couples the law together with the prophets, then it is most often, a reference to the Torah.

Example: Torah

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17

The Law in this verse is a reference to the Torah, the first five books of the Bible.

Jesus uses the law of Moses, specifically in this case to clarify.

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Luke 24:44


Example: law of Moses

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Galatians 3:17-19

Paul is contrasting the Abrahamic Covenant and the promises, with the law of Moses.

The law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Torah.

This is how we use the context, to determine (in most cases) which law is being referred to.

Thanks. Great topic.

JLB

I had to read this again because I want to understand it very well.

When I speak of The Law, I'm always referring to the Old Covenant or the Mosaic Covenant.
That would be the ten commandments.

You yourself say in the highlighted above:

The law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Torah.

This is correct. We could discuss of the Old Covenant was eliminated or made better because of some verse in Hebrews, but as I studied the covenants in theology, I learned that each one makes the previous better in some way or changes it but no covenant eliminates the previous one.

Jesus said the prophets spoke about Him because He fulfilled the prophecies and was, indeed, the Messiah.

The Torah, instead, is full of ordinances and rules and regulations that were added on by man. Some the the regulations we read in Deuteronomy and Leviticus could not be from God.

It seems to me that you're saying that the Law of Moses includes all these ordinances and regulations.

To me, the Law means the 10 commandments given to Moses.
OR, the Moral Law, which will never be abolished.

The Torah is the first five books, which INCLUDE the ten commandments but I do not consider the Torah to be the Law of Moses.

Could you please clarify whether or not we agree.

 

[Boaz308]

The Torah, instead, is full of ordinances and rules and regulations that were added on by man. Some the the regulations we read in Deuteronomy and Leviticus could not be from God.

Which ones don't you believe can be from God? My understanding is that they are all from God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Torah is from God.
The Jews added to it in their other books, the Talmud, etc...

 

[GodsGrace]

Which ones don't you believe can be from God? My understanding is that they are all from God.

Boaz,
You read through those books and believe God said some of those things?
I'll be happy to list some for you. Right now I'd say, the ones that don't sound like God said it...
(it's 11:32 pm here -- tomorrow)
For instance:::
Leviticus 7:23-25
Leviticus 21:9

Maybe you could go through these books with this idea in mind and see what you come up with?

 

[GodsGrace]

The Torah is from God.
The Jews added to it in their other books, the Talmud, etc...

But are you saying The Law is the Ten Commandments
or The Law are all the regulations in the 5 books, the Torah?

 

[Boaz308]

Boaz,
You read through those books and believe God said some of those things?
I'll be happy to list some for you. Right now I'd say, the ones that don't sound like God said it...
(it's 11:32 pm here -- tomorrow)
For instance:::
Leviticus 7:23-25
Leviticus 21:9

Maybe you could go through these books with this idea in mind and see what you come up with?

I have read them in the past. I choose to believe that the bible is the infallible word of God. He is more than capable of maintaining the integrity of his word through the ages. Here is the problem with thinking well man may have changed this or added that later on. When you open up the possibility for that you just get to pick and choose what you want to believe. That is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Just look at the world around us. No, I have to believe God made all the laws written in the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have read them in the past. I choose to believe that the bible is the infallible word of God. He is more than capable of maintaining the integrity of his word through the ages. Here is the problem with thinking well man may have changed this or added that later on. When you open up the possibility for that you just get to pick and choose what you want to believe. That is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Just look at the world around us. No, I have to believe God made all the laws written in the bible.

This is fine Boaz. You won't get an argument from me.
God revealed Himself through the bible.
He revealed Himself through man.
He finally sent Jesus to be the ultimate revelation.
Jesus is truth, He helps us to know God much better.
I like to concentrate on our Lord and live the way He would like.
Making mistakes along the way, getting up, still headed toward God.
Jesus made everything easy to understand.

BTW, Welcome to the forum !
You'll find we're a nice bunch here.
We may not agree on everything, but we respect each other.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

But are you saying The Law is the Ten Commandments
or The Law are all the regulations in the 5 books, the Torah?

The Law is all the regulations in all 5 books, whether you choose to believe it or not.
It is your faith that has doubts, not mine.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is fine Boaz. You won't get an argument from me.
God revealed Himself through the bible.
He revealed Himself through man.
He finally sent Jesus to be the ultimate revelation.
Jesus is truth, He helps us to know God much better.
I like to concentrate on our Lord and live the way He would like.
Making mistakes along the way, getting up, still headed toward God.
Jesus made everything easy to understand.

BTW, Welcome to the forum !
You'll find we're a nice bunch here.
We may not agree on everything, but we respect each other.

The Bible is either a proper noun or a countable noun.
In your use of the word in this post, it is a proper noun and should be capitalized, thus Bible.
Please refer to dictionary.com when in doubt.
Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible is either a proper noun or a countable noun.
In your use of the word in this post, it is a proper noun and should be capitalized, thus Bible.
Please refer to dictionary.com when in doubt.
Thank you.

Yessir!!

 

[GodsGrace]

The Law is all the regulations in all 5 books, whether you choose to believe it or not.
It is your faith that has doubts, not mine.

What does your second sentence mean??

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you have a link to those covenant lists?

Sorry I do not. I found this many years ago, but never noted the website.
I do use http://www.jewfaq.org/index.shtml and may have found it in there.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What does your second sentence mean??

You choose not to believe Leviticus, not me.

 

[reba]

What ever God does is godly

 

[for_his_glory]

The only mitzvot commandments binding upon Gentiles are the seven Noahic commandments which God gave to Noah after the flood. I already listed them within the moral parts of the 613 commandments that pertain to Jew and Gentile. The 613 laws have different categories pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as even some of these laws were added to by man, but yet have no bearing on the Gentiles.

BTW, the ten commandments are part of the 613 Mosaic Laws.

Here are the seven:
Not to worship
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm

Click under DEEDS then go to the ten commandments as it gives better details.

 

[JLB]

The Law is all the regulations in all 5 books, whether you choose to believe it or not.
It is your faith that has doubts, not mine.

The Law (Torah) is the first five books of the Bible.

The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, 430 years later, until the Seed should come.


17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:17-19


Key Phrases:

• the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later
• What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

The law here is referring to the law of Moses, not the Torah (5 Books).

The Torah (5 Books) was not added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant was a part of the Torah, being described in Genesis 17.

The law of Moses came 430 years later.

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

The children of Israel who came out of Egypt, and had been in bondage, had only known the gods of the Egyptians, and were not walking in Covenant relationship with the Lord, the way Abraham did.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

• walk before Me and be blameless.

And again

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham walked with God and learned His commandments and laws directly from the Lord, in which he received them by faith, the way we are to do today.

Being led by His Spirit.

The Lord added the law as a "fence" around the Covenant, because of their transgressions, which they picked up while in Egypt.

This was to help keep them walking in Covenant relationship so that the Lord could continue blessing them with blessings of Abraham, which they needed in order to take the land promised to Abraham, Issac and Jacob, away from the giants.

That was the purpose of the law, until the Lord who made Covenant with Abraham became flesh.

JLB

 

[JLB]

When I speak of The Law, I'm always referring to the Old Covenant or the Mosaic Covenant.

Yes ma'am.

However, the law of Moses was much more than the 10 Commandments.

Remember Abraham and obeyed the Lord's commandments, 430 years before Moses.

Cain was punished for murdering Able.

God set forth a day of rest on the 7th.

These commandments were around long before Moses, and were the Lord's commandments before the law was added, and remain so after the law of Moses became obsolete and taken out of the way, having been nailed to the cross.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You choose not to believe Leviticus, not me.

How do you understand Leviticus 21:9 ?
How about Leviticus 21:11 ?
Did Jesus not say we are to HONOR our mother and father?
So why wouldn't the priest be able to approach his dead mother or father?

The only way to understand the O.T. is to accept that God did not give all the instructions.
Man added to them. It's obvious which ones are of man and not of God.