God's Kingdom on Earth

[n2thelight]

Yep. Without a doubt. Study the book of Hebrews if you don't believe me.

So you can go out and commit murder,or break any other of the Ten Commandments?

Let's look at the verse you quoted

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."


Many teach that when Christ came and went to the cross at Calvary, and shed His blood for us that the law was done away with. Jesus Christ Himself declares here that this is just not so. Jesus declared here that; "think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets", Christ's purpose for coming to earth, was to complete every last prophecy that came out of the Prophets of old. That included the law, for the law was given for guidance for man, and it is as current today as it was three thousand years ago.

God knew that man could not keep the law, and that is why He made the provision for man. When man broke the law, and the barrier came between God and man, and certain rites, ordinances, and rituals [sacrifices] were established by God to bring man back to God. These sacrifices were of the blood of sheep, goats and doves, and were a covering, [called atonement] that satisfied the Lord God for one year.

The only permanent sacrifice that could atone for mans sin, was a spotless sacrifice, sinless, and the only one that could do that was God's only Son, Jesus Christ. This was known long before the setting forth of the planets. God's plan was even written in the constellations of the heavens. The moment our Lord Jesus Christ died on that cross, the veil in the Temple was parted.

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

This is Jesus teaching what we have just gone over. Not one word that has been written, or Prophesied in the Scriptures will be done away with, not one. The "jot" is the smallest letter in the Hebrew language, and appears like this " ' ", and it is recorded in the original Massoretic text 66,420 times. It is called "yod", and is pronounced "iota". However the jot, like the tittle have no sound where it is used.

The "tittle" is an small ornament that is placed over Hebrew letters, so you can tell the difference between the two letters that are very similar in appearance. It has no sound of its own, but eliminates the confusion of identifing Hebrew letters, such as telling the difference between R = resh [ ], and D = deleth [ ]. Jesus has told us that every marking of the original will stay in place, and apply to God's people, until that prophecy has come to pass, or the law has been fulfilled.

Many prophecies are already fulfilled, as well as all the blood sacrifices, and ordinances. Some of the law will not be fulfilled until after judgment day, when we enter the eternal age. Then all sin will be done away with, because the tempter, Satan, and all those that followed his ways will be turned to ashes. The health laws are in place to give us a long healthful life, while living in the flesh. To break those laws, is not so much a sin, but results in poor health, and sickness.

Commentary by Roger Christopherson

Go out and kill someone,and see how the law is gone......

 

[felix]

The real problem with all these confusion is because, Jesus Christ did prophesy about the 70 AD, but not all what He said was about 70 AD.

The most convincing verse for 70 AD is Luke 21:24 which says, And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

We know the times of the Gentiles were from 70 to 1948 AD. So, we need to separate what He said that will be for 70 AD and before what shall happen after 70 AD.

Zechariah 14 prophecy is not yet over because the Mount of Olives is not yet split. In this prophecy, verse 2 also speaks about the fall of Jerusalem, but God comes to rescue and assures of no more utter destruction. However in Jesus prophecy, God does not come to rescue and the period is called days of vengeance. So, there are two different events.

As in (John 21:25),

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

So, Jesus could have said many things but, it would be too much to absorb for the 3 disciples who were with Jesus privately. Having said that, we must not assume the parts of revelation and/or prophecy like God's kingdom where Christ ruling on David's throne as spiritually just because we can't see everything happening for 2000 years (actually we see some happening like formation of Israel etc).

I believe the fifth seal is already open and we are during the period of sixth seal.
The 7 Seals of Revelation - YouTube

Great Tribulation is also called Jacob's trouble, but according to prophecy, God saves Jerusalem which is matching Zechariah 14 which is contrary to Jesus's words which means, Jesus is saying an entirely a different tribulation.

(Jer 30:7-9) Alas! For that day [is] great, So that none [is] like it; And it [is] the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, '[That] I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

The 'great' tribulation mentioned by Jesus Christ could every well be over, but this does not mean the beheading of saints in Rev, the second beast of revelation 13 and the man of lawlessness in (2 Thess 2) is also over.

Great tribulation by itself simply means great affliction, not necessarily pointing a single event.

 

[Stormcrow]

So you can go out and commit murder,or break any other of the Ten Commandments?

Wow. That isn't even really worth responding seriously to.

 

[Stormcrow]

We know the times of the Gentiles were from 70 to 1948 AD.

The time of the Gentiles was 3.5 years, when Roman legions were "trampling" all over the Holy Land. Yes, that's right: the entire land of Israel was Holy to God and the Jews.

This 3.5 years corresponds to the same 42 months found in Revelation 11:2:

{2} "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. Revelation 11:2 (NASB)

 

[Stormcrow]

I believe the fifth seal is already open and we are during the period of sixth seal.

The 7th Trump sounded with the second coming of Christ in vengeance upon Jerusalem:

{15} Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

{16} And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, {17} saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. {18} "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." Revelation 11:15-18 (NASB)

Because the 7th (last) trump sounded, every seal and trumpet before then also had to have been opened or sounded before it.

 

[felix]

The 7th Trump sounded with the second coming of Christ in vengeance upon Jerusalem:

{15} Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

{16} And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, {17} saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. {18} "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." Revelation 11:15-18 (NASB)

Because the 7th (last) trump sounded, every seal and trumpet before then also had to have been opened or sounded before it.

So, where is Christ then? I believe many have asked the same question.. Christ is not a Spirit but has flesh and bones.

 

[Drew]

Are you saying the law is done away with?

I agree with Stormcrow - the written Law of Moses has most certainly been "abolished" or "retired".

 

[Drew]

So you can go out and commit murder,or break any other of the Ten Commandments?

This is not a valid critique of the position that the Law of Moses has been retired or abolished, although it is often put forward.

The problem is an implicit assumption that if there is no "law" against, say, murder, this means that murder must be acceptable. This is clearly not true - we do not need written law to prescribe behaviour. In fact, Paul makes it clear that, after the cross at least, it is the indwelling Spirit that functions to prescribe behaviour, not law.

In any event, it should be clear that human beings do not strictly need “law” to guide behaviour. The vast majority of human beings are not going around kicking puppies. Is this because there is a “law” against this activity? Of course not! Most people do not kick puppies because they have an empathic connection with the cute defenceless and otherwise lovable puppy. In other words, forces other than prescriptive “rules” function to ensure that puppies are not kicked.

So the argument that those of us who assert that the Law has been retired are thereby condoning murder, for example, simply does not work.

 

[Drew]

Let's look at the verse you quoted

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."


Many teach that when Christ came and went to the cross at Calvary, and shed His blood for us that the law was done away with. Jesus Christ Himself declares here that this is just not so.

I disagree.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Law of Moses will remain in force basically to the end of time.

 

[Drew]

Zechariah 14 prophecy is not yet over because the Mount of Olives is not yet split.

No first century Jew would think this way. The Old Testament is chock full of colorful, metaphorical language that, for reasons I have just explained in preceding posts, was never meant to be taken literally.

Old Testament writers have repeatedly used the language of "cosmic catastrophe" - earthquakes, the stars falling, mountains being split - as a literary device to invest events in the socio-political sphere with their theological significance.

I am quite confident - the Mount of Olives will never be literally split. Zechariah, like other Bible writers, knew how to use a good metaphor.

 

[felix]

No first century Jew would think this way. The Old Testament is chock full of colorful, metaphorical language that, for reasons I have just explained in preceding posts, was never meant to be taken literally.

Old Testament writers have repeatedly used the language of "cosmic catastrophe" - earthquakes, the stars falling, mountains being split - as a literary device to invest events in the socio-political sphere with their theological significance.

I am quite confident - the Mount of Olives will never be literally split. Zechariah, like other Bible writers, knew how to use a good metaphor.

Splitting the mountain valley and fleeing is compared to the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king (as in verse Zech 14:5), which is a directly reference to Amos 1:1 which clearly says about the earthquake. I don't think it's spiritual but literal.

 

[Elijah674]

Splitting the mountain valley and fleeing is compared to the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king (as in verse Zech 14:5), which is a directly reference to Amos 1:1 which clearly says about the earthquake. I don't think it's spiritual but literal.

Hey you two, we all have our faith, huh? David said the God Spake & it stoodc fast! And Job said that God hung the Earth on NOTHING!And old Elijah?? (me that is) Believes it just as they were Inspired to 'pen' it!:waving

 

[Stormcrow]

So, where is Christ then? I believe many have asked the same question.

{13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 (KJV)

Christ ascended and now sits at the right hand of the Father - not a physical location but rather a position of ultimate authority - in heaven, where He has raised us up with Him, spiritually speaking.

However He has sent His Holy Spirit to us to confirm our standing in His kingdom as joint-heirs with Christ. The church is His Bride and each believer is His temple, where the glory of God now dwells in each one of us.

Christ is not a Spirit but has flesh and bones.

Christ has a glorified, resurrection body that appears (in the Bible) to possess both physical (corporeal) and spiritual (ethereal) qualities.

He could eat and the disciples could touch Him. But He could also appear and disappear at will. If He is one with the Father in nature, essence, and purpose, He is also spirit, just as God is spirit.

To suggest, therefore, that He is only flesh and blood is to deny His deity. To suggest, on the other hand, that He is only spirit is to deny His humanity.

He is both and - by virtue of His unique nature - is certainly at home wherever He chooses to dwell.

 

[felix]

{13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 (KJV)

Christ ascended and now sits at the right hand of the Father - not a physical location but rather a position of ultimate authority - in heaven, where He has raised us up with Him, spiritually speaking.

However He has sent His Holy Spirit to us to confirm our standing in His kingdom as joint-heirs with Christ. The church is His Bride and each believer is His temple, where the glory of God now dwells in each one of us.

Christ has a glorified, resurrection body that appears (in the Bible) to possess both physical (corporeal) and spiritual (ethereal) qualities.

He could eat and the disciples could touch Him. But He could also appear and disappear at will. If He is one with the Father in nature, essence, and purpose, He is also spirit, just as God is spirit.

To suggest, therefore, that He is only flesh and blood is to deny His deity. To suggest, on the other hand, that He is only spirit is to deny His humanity.

He is both and - by virtue of His unique nature - is certainly at home wherever He chooses to dwell.

Sorry, Christ didn't say He will spiritually come. Neither Christ is a Spirit. The Word became Flesh, not Spirit. If Christ said He is coming, then He will come physically to this earth in Flesh.

(Heb 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[Elijah674]

Sorry, Christ didn't say He will spiritually come. Neither Christ is a Spirit. The Word became Flesh, not Spirit. If Christ said He is coming, then He will come physically to this earth in Flesh.

(Heb 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Sounds clear in the last paragraph!

And the first part? Doesn't Christ say that He would send the Holy Spirit back to now present Christ Himself Omnipresent worldwide through the Born Again ones? (in bottom/line)

Christ even said that He (the Holy Spirit) would not testify of Himself, but would lift up Christ.

--Elijah

 

[Stormcrow]

Sorry, Christ didn't say He will spiritually come. Neither Christ is a Spirit. The Word became Flesh, not Spirit.

What was He before He became flesh???

{1} In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 (NASB)

{24} God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 (KJV)

If Christ said He is coming, then He will come physically to this earth in Flesh.

He already did. That's the point of His first coming.

(Heb 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Now, do you know what that verse means???

I explained it here:

They only knew grace "in part" because they were still bound by the Law.

So now when you read Hebrews 9:28, see if it makes more sense in light of the above:

{28} so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

His first coming put away sin. His second coming, in judgment upon Jerusalem, put away the Law, thus freeing those Jews who believed in Him from any further obligation to it.

Again, Christ's first coming was in the flesh to bear the sins of the many. His second coming was to take the kingdom away from Israel - in fulfillment of the Law - and return it to the Father, who made Christ Lord over all and the head of His church: the new kingdom of God.

 

[felix]

What was He before He became flesh???

{1} In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 (NASB)

{24} God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 (KJV)



He already did. That's the point of His first coming.



Now, do you know what that verse means???

I explained it here:



Again, Christ's first coming was in the flesh to bear the sins of the many. His second coming was to take the kingdom away from Israel - in fulfillment of the Law - and return it to the Father, who made Christ Lord over all and the head of His church: the new kingdom of God.

(Acts 1:9-11) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This [same] Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

 

[Drew]

Again, Christ's first coming was in the flesh to bear the sins of the many. His second coming was to take the kingdom away from Israel - in fulfillment of the Law - and return it to the Father, who made Christ Lord over all and the head of His church: the new kingdom of God.

As you probably have figured out, I think that many of the prophecies we see in the New Testament were indeed fulfilled in the first century. But I am not a "full preterist" - if I use that term properly. In particular, I believe in a future physical return of Jesus to us. I take it that you do not - please set me straight if I am not correctly representing your position.

I think we probably agree about Matthew 24 - I see these prophecies as being fulfilled in the first century. You are no doubt aware that this places us in a distinct minority - most evangelicals believe those prophecies are yet to be fulfilled (at least this is my understanding of the present spectrum of thinking on this matter).

I think that it is important for us (e.g. you and I and others who believe we have the correct reading of Matthew 24) to "make the case" and try to convince others of their misreading - bad theology almost always leads to bad life choices, even if the issue seems purely academic.

However, I think we can read Matthew 24 as being fulfilled in the first century and still embrace a future bodily return of Jesus to us - as felix has pointed out.

I will not get into the details just yet but I suggest any attempt to argue that the Kingdom of God is "fully here" (i.e. that Jesus has already 'handed over the keys to the Father' as per 1 Corinthians 15) requires the following non-Biblical move - to "spiritualize" things like the promised defeat of death as the "last enemy".

I think this cannot work ultimately - to say that death has been defeated already is to essentially embrace a form of gnosticism, whereby the "physical" is deemed to be of lesser importance than the "spiritual". And I think this is decidedly unBiblical, and appeals to Greek concepts, not Jewish ones.

Clearly, human beings still die. To suggest that death has been defeated requires one to believe that physical death is not "really" death. And, for reasons, I will not get into in this past, I do not see how that can work in light of the broad content of Scripture.

God is redeeming His creation in all its physicality. So as long as creatures dies, the defeat of death has not been fully achieved.

 

[Stormcrow]

(Acts 1:9-11) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This [same] Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

How did He go into heaven??? Please note:

"and a cloud received Him out of their sight."

And how did He repeatedly promise them that He would return?

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (KJV)

{64} Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64 (KJV)

{17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)

{7} Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth [land] shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7 (KJV)

His "coming in the clouds" was a direct reference to the manner in which God appeared to the Children of Israel in the Old Testament. You can check these references for yourself:

Exodus 16:10, 19:9, 19:16, 34:5, Leviticus 16:2, Numbers 11:25, I Kings 8:10-11, Psalms 18:6-12, 68:34, 97:2, 104:3, to name a few.

This is why Caiaphas responded the way he did to Christ's words in Matthew 26:64:

{65} Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; {66} what do you think?" They answered, "He deserves death!" Matthew 26:65-66 (NASB)

Again, Christ was telling them He would come upon them EXACTLY as the Father had in the references I listed above: in the clouds in power and glory! He was equating Himself to God!

The judgment component of His coming is seen here:

{1} The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. Isaiah 19:1 (KJV)

He came in judgment upon Egypt upon what? "Upon a swift cloud."

{1} How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger! Lamentations 2:1 (KJV)

{13} I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. {14} And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV)

Christ's eternal dominion is NOW, expressed in His body on earth - the church - through which He reigns.

The Bible only speaks of His coming twice: once in the flesh and once in the clouds. We are His body and His temple on earth now, that which His glory should now be filling.

If people don't see the glory of Christ in us, what hope do they have???

 

[Stormcrow]

I suggest any attempt to argue that the Kingdom of God is "fully here" (i.e. that Jesus has already 'handed over the keys to the Father' as per 1 Corinthians 15) requires the following non-Biblical move - to "spiritualize" things like the promised defeat of death as the "last enemy"...To suggest that death has been defeated requires one to believe that physical death is not "really" death.

{18} And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matthew 28:18 (NASB)

{22} For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. {23} But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, {24} then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (NASB)

There is no "gap" indicated in Matthew 24 to suggest His second (and final) coming happens 2,000 years after the "great tribulation" that befell Jerusalem in 70 AD. In fact, Christ tells them quite the opposite:

{29} "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. {30} "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. {31} "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31 (NASB)