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God's Kingdom on Earth

Disappearing is not necessarily a nature or quality of a spirit.
Again, what part of this:
Christ has a glorified, resurrection body that appears (in the Bible) to possess both physical (corporeal) and spiritual (ethereal) qualities.
Don't you get???

What part of "and the Word BECAME flesh" don't you get??? What was He before He BECAME flesh???

Regarding the other post, John 14:3 represents the new heaven and new earth which God will create, for Him to dwell with man forever. Old Jerusalem is the city of David which David captured as in 2Sam 5:6-10. Jerusalem will be called the Throne of God as in Jer 3:17. Throne of David prophesied in Isa 9:7 and confirmed in Luke 1:32 represents the rule over New Jerusalem as in Rev 22:3.
And every word of that is your interpretation layered over the text. That you merely believe this does NOT make it true!
 
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Drew, physical death will never end. It is appointed for man to die once, then the judgment. What I learned in Christianity 101 was that we die physically then we live on spiritually like the angels in heaven.

Paul said we would not all die but we shall all be changed,after this change the age of the flesh will be over.Physical death will in fact end at this time,what comes next is the death of the soul,for those who don't make it...

At the end of the 1000 years,the death of the soul shall take place,when death will have been defeated,totally.....

After which the full God head will dwell here on earth....
 
by felix,
Christ will not drink the fruit of vine until the kingdom of God comes is a simple truth. And we will be with Him together forever when He comes is a simple truth.
Why don't you understand this simple truth?

And where did Jesus say He was returning in the flesh? If you cannot definitively support your opinion of that, then you need to concede to the fact you are mistaken about the scriptures!


Jesus' Promise
In Matthew 26:26ff our Master instituted the Supper and promised, "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
This text is generally interpreted to mean that when the kingdom was established on Pentecost and the church began to commemorate the Supper, this was the "new" way Jesus had in mind. Under the Old Covenant the Passover had a typical significance which found its fulfillment in the Supper of the Kingdom.
I accept this position on a limited basis. However, I believe it has serious flaws in it that do not sufficiently consider at least two different tenets.
First, the significance of "new." Arndt-and Gingrich says the word "new" from kainos (Greek), means new in the sense of never having been before, or new as in superior in contrast to old. In other words, in meaning, worth, or significance. Vines says it means "new as form of quality, of different nature what is contrasted as old." (Vol. III. p.109.) See also Thayer, p. 317. Kittel says that kainos emphasizes what is "new and distinctive...What is new in nature...better than the old, superior in value or attraction..." (Vol. III. p.447.)
This newness is an overlooked aspect of the Supper, especially in regard to the Parousia. The Supper was not a totally new institution. It was the Passover fulfilled. Even that greater meaning, however, was not brought to fruition until the salvation wrought by the death of Jesus was consummated. The consummation of that salvation was "ready to be revealed in the last time" I Peter 1:5. That this was imminent is proven by comparing I Peter 1:5 with I John 2:18.
This brings us to the second oft-neglected tenet: the maturation period of the church. We in the churches of Christ have taught, at least implicitly, that when the church was established on Pentecost it was complete, full-grown, lacking nothing. The only time we have qualified this in any way was in our debates with charismatics when we emphasized the on-going revelation-confirmation period of miracles was for the church to come to maturity. Such argumentation is hardly consistent. It is also interesting to hear such vehement insistence on the part of some writers that the church was established in totality and completeness on Pentecost. This doctrine has some serious implications as a future article will demonstrate.
During the period of time when the church was coming to maturity (this is sometimes called a period of transition) there are several things mentioned in the New Testament as being present realities, but which were also spoken of as coming realities. Invariably the future aspect of these coming things is one of imminency.
The following list will demonstrate a few of the things which were both present realities but also objects of imminent expectation.
Grace: Present: Romans 5:2, Galatians 1:6; Imminent Future: I Peter 1:5-7; 4:5,7,13,17; 5:10. Glory: Present: I Thessalonians 2:12; Imminent Future: I Peter 1:5- 7. Salvation: Present: Ephesians 2:8-9; Imminent Future: Romans 13:11; Hebrews 9:28; 10:37. Adoption: Present: Romans 8:15; Imminent Future: Romans 8:19ff. Kingdom: Present: Colossians 1:13; Imminent Future: Luke 21:29-32.
How does this transitional period relate to the present issue? We believe the answer is to be found in the term "new" (kainos).
It is incontrovertible that when the church began to observe the Supper from Pentecost, Acts 2, and onward, I Corinthians 11, they were partaking of it in a new way. It was not the Old Passover. It had a new meaning.
But, while the Supper had a new meaning during this transition period, it had not yet found its perfection. In the same way that those first Christians had life, glory, grace, salvation, adoption, and the kingdom (but were still expecting the imminent consummation of these things), so it was with the Lord's Supper. It was new, but not yet perfected.
When would the Supper's new meaning find perfection or consummation, so that far from ceasing, it would be taken in the predicted new way? The answer is to be found in Luke 22:15-18.
In these verses, Jesus promised, "I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." In verse 18 he emphasized, "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God shall come."
Jesus promised to partake of the Supper in a new way when the kingdom came. As noted it is usually taught the kingdom came in totality on Pentecost. Such is not the case however.
Present/Coming Kingdom
That the church/kingdom was set up on Pentecost we deny not. The church was present then and afterwards; but the kingdom was still future also!
In Matthew 16:27-28 Immanuel promised to come in his Father's glory, with the angels, to judge the world. He then stated emphatically that some then living would not die until they had seen Him coming in the kingdom. This did not happen on Pentecost! This then is a reference to a future coming of the kingdom subsequent to its establishment on Pentecost.
Further, in Luke 21:31 our Master looked forward to the signs preceding the fall of the Jewish Theocracy and said, "...when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." Those "things" presage an event that did not happen until thirty-seven years after Pentecost; yet, they were portents of the soon to come kingdom! So the kingdom (in whatever sense Jesus was referring to it) would not have fully arrived until A.D.70.
Could it not be that while the church ate the Supper in a new, yet unperfected way, in the present yet unperfected kingdom, that when the time of the perfection arrived they ate the perfected Supper in the perfected kingdom?
I suggest this is the case. Thus, when Paul in I Corinthians 11:26 said they were to show forth the Lord's death "till he come," he was eagerly looking forward, not to the cessation but to the consummation of the Supper.
The Lord's return, most assuredly expected in the lifetime of the Corinthians (cf. I Corinthians 1:4-8; 7:29-31; 13:8-13,) was not so much for the purpose of destroying the old Levitical system as it was for fulfilling it and bringing to completion the Scheme of Redemption. As the early church communed with the Lord in his Supper (I Corinthians 10:16-21), they remembered his death and sufferings. They eagerly longed for his return when the Feast would not only be a remembrance of the past, but a celebration with Him in a completely established and triumphant Kingdom. After Jesus came in A.D.70 the Supper could finally be taken in the perfected "newness" of which he spoke.
Today as children of God we also participate in the Supper. It is not in anticipation of a coming salvation, but in realization of an accomplished salvation through the suffering of our Lord. The Supper was not to cease at Jesus' return. It was and is to be taken in appreciation of his accomplished work.
from my link in the "communion thread" Until He Comes | eschatology.org
 
{17} Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. {18} But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)

{2} Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. {3} And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:2-3 (NASB)


{42} So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; {43} it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; {44} it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (NASB)


{47} The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. {48} As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. {49} Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (NASB)

The difference between these verses and Luke 24:39?

Christ had not yet ascended to the right hand of the Father when He was still appearing to the disciples after the resurrection.

We will be like Him when we receive our spiritual bodies. He will not become as we are now.
 
Stormcrow and Lehigh3,
You take Christ as a Spirit and everything there after are based on that very fact. However, Christ is not a Spirit which I had shown you several times. What you are teaching is labeled as heresy by early Church fathers known as 'Sabellianism' which is contrary to doctrine of Trinity. Sabellianism is not a core doctrine of Christianity and Scripture doesn't speak about it.
 
Not at all. You simply need to see Paul's words in Corinthians in light of what Christ said in Matthew 24, when He said His coming would happen "immediately after" the tribulation of those days.
This does not engage my critique of your position. If you believe that 1 Corinthians 15 is already completely fulfilled, you are forced to say that death has already been defeated. Since you know all too well that people still die, you have to then make the exceedingly dubious move of suggesting that death has been defeated even though people still stop breathing and decompose in the ground.

This is what I mean when I refer to "triviliazing" physical death. How can you say that death has been defeated when people still die, unless you also choose to believe that physical death is not "real" death, or is otherwise fundamentally irrelevant to the "true" defeat of death?

Futurists understand the dilemma this presents, so they move "the tribulation of those days" off into the indefinite future. But if taken in context, it's clear exactly what the tribulation of those days was: the siege and ultimate destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans.
You are not arguing against me here, you are arguing against others.

I will repeat: I entirely agree that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

But, and this is key, I am not, in believing this, forced to agree that 1 Corinthians 15 has been fulfilled.

How can it be?

Death is still here and we have not yet been given resurrection bodies.

Please - do not mix me up with "futurists" - I spend a good deal of my time here arguing for a position that you and I agree on - that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled.
 
In I Cor. 15:1-19, Paul said that some at the church in Corinth were saying, "There is no resurrection of the dead." Were those resurrection deniers saying that it was unbelievable that decomposed, dead bodies could be raised back to life? Were they annihilationists? Or did they believe in “bodiless soul-immortality?â€

PRETERIST ANSWER: The error in the church at Corinth was not an objection to the idea of dead bodies being raised back to life. The error was not a scientific skepticism about the reanimation of decomposed corpses. Nor was it a belief in annihilation or in bodiless soul-immortality. The error at Corinth was a denial that the pre-Christian saints would be raised up in Christ with the Church in the end of the age. The resurrection-of-the-dead deniers looked forward to the resurrection of the Body of Christ, (the Church) but they denied that the pre-Cross world (the dead) had any part in that Body.
 
you are forced to say that death has already been defeated.
I don't have to. Paul did:

{8} Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, {9} who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, {10} but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, {11} for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. 2 Timothy 1:8-11 (NASB)

Death is abolished "through the gospel". There is no other means by which death is abolished!

Death is still here and we have not yet been given resurrection bodies.

Death persists for those with no hope of eternal life in Christ. You will receive your incorruptible body when you pass from this life to the next.
 
You take Christ as a Spirit and everything there after are based on that very fact.

You continue to make this charge which I refuted twice now. I won't waste my time refuting it again.

What you are teaching is labeled as heresy by early Church fathers known as 'Sabellianism' which is contrary to doctrine of Trinity.

I've been called worse than "heretic." You'll have to do better than that. :nono2
 
This does not engage my critique of your position. If you believe that 1 Corinthians 15 is already completely fulfilled, you are forced to say that death has already been defeated. Since you know all too well that people still die, you have to then make the exceedingly dubious move of suggesting that death has been defeated even though people still stop breathing and decompose in the ground.

I'm guessing that the futurist would complain that you are "spiritualizing" texts yourself. You just aren't willing to go all the way down the path that the "consistent preterists" are.

Full preterists and futurists may both want to say your partial preterist "two comings" theory is utterly inconsistent.

So anyway, I agree with the point you're making, but I suspect that the "gun" could be turned back against your own position.
 
Christains today,are still being persecuted,people are still being,raped and murdered,children are being molested.....Where is the peace,of course as a Christian peace is within us,however when the kingdom is here,we shall have that peace,inside and out,for the Prince of peace shall be with us,here on earth.....

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The full Godhead shall be here on earth........

Yes, I believe the fullness of the Kingdom is to come yet. It will be manifested when Jesus comes in the same manner He left earth in. In the flesh, as a man blessed above his fellows because of His obedience to the death. However, how can it be that He lied when He said the kingdom of God is within you? Surely the ones to whom He said that were on earth? I was considering the same subject as you expressed in your first statements before the Lord one day recently and it came to me clearly that the murderers, child molesters and others we consider so evil they should be killed are on the same line of free-will that the rest of us are. Could they resist their impulses? Can we? Have we all not gained the knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve's misstep? Free will is ours, in the form of freedom to do either good or evil. We "earned" it by the disobedience of our first parents and so long as we allow it to exist for those who use it for evil, the evil will continue. As sons of God, we are to "rule and reign with Christ" and while we are "waiting" for the sweet bye and bye, murderers and rapists, child molesters and drug dealers continue as ever, to wreak havoc on the earth meant for man to live on in peace and harmony. I know it is disheartening and daunting to think our prayers can have an effect on the horrible things man does to his fellows, as we feel "my puny prayers" do no good against such monstrous doings. So then shall we try it anyway or let the world go on as it is?
 

"I'm guessing that the futurist would complain that you are "spiritualizing" texts yourself. You just aren't willing to go all the way down the path that the "consistent preterists" are."


So you could be accused of "spiritualizing" material such as in Matt. 24 which has traditionally been understood to speak of the 2nd coming.
 
zinc, it would be the reverse if this conversation was 200 yrs ago as historically the church believe in that idea of matthew 24 was completed.
 
zinc, it would be the reverse if this conversation was 200 yrs ago as historically the church believe in that idea of matthew 24 was completed.

No, it wouldn't be different "200 years ago". It's correct to say that there is some history of partial preterism in the Protestant tradition. But those are hardly "early" sources. The church fathers were not preterist, although they may (e.g Eusebius) talk about some first century fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse.
 
Matthew Henry's commentary:


Some think this is to be understood only of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation...

It seems rather to refer to Christ's second coming.... and while we are all agreed to expect Christ's second coming, what need is there to put such strained constructions as some do, upon these verses, which speak of it so clearly, and so agreeably to other scriptures, especially when Christ is here answering an enquiry concerning his coming at the end of the world, which Christ was never shy of speaking of to his disciples?

Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible
 
i was speaking regards to futurists aka modern pre-tribbers and such like.

that isnt that old at all.full preterism isnt what drew espouses.
 
i was speaking regards to futurists aka modern pre-tribbers and such like.

that isnt that old at all.

If e.g. dispensationalism is very much a recent invention, it does nothing to help the preterist.


full preterism isnt what drew espouses.
I know this. Drew is a partial preterist.

The church fathers weren't full preterists, and they weren't partial preterists either.

Drew is actually in a way in the same boat with the dispensationalists, in that both these systems split up the 2nd coming material to create "two comings".
 
"I'm guessing that the futurist would complain that you are "spiritualizing" texts yourself. You just aren't willing to go all the way down the path that the "consistent preterists" are."


So you could be accused of "spiritualizing" material such as in Matt. 24 which has traditionally been understood to speak of the 2nd coming.
I do not see how I am "spiritualizing" Matthew 24.

When I use the term "spiritualize", I mean something very specific: taking some scripture text that describes something about the world and concluding, without evidence, that the desription only applies to some "non-material" sub-set of that world.

Do you see what I mean? Example: The Bible tells us that Jesus has been installed as king of the world. To "spiritualize" such a teaching is to assert that He is only king of an an unseen "spiritual" domain, and is not really king of the very real insitutions of this material world.

I hope this clarifies things. In this sense, to suggest that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled is not to "spiritualize".
 
I know this. Drew is a partial preterist.
I am not big on these terms, but I suspect you are correct in characterising me this way.

Drew is actually in a way in the same boat with the dispensationalists, in that both these systems split up the 2nd coming material to create "two comings".
I basically agree with this characterization. There is a sense in which Jesus "came" in the first century (in the sense that He was installed as king of the world, even though he was physically absent), and there will a future "coming" as well.

Obviously, I believe that the Bible supports this view, even though I know many would not agree.
 
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