God's Kingdom on Earth

[noble]

Hi n2thelight;

Yes the person does live on after the earthly body is destroyed,my point is the
fact that if you don't die before the 7th trump,the earthly body will be
destroyed at that point.....

Yes, I gathered that... but that is what I quoted Rev 14:13 for.
The last trump is at the end of that harvest of the earth, the end of the age or the wrath of God. John sees that wrath of God taking place as he sits in heaven watching his vision. As the wrath begins John is given this instruction:

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.â€

There will be people dying from now on! Those peope who die from then on are blessed meaning they are not the ones suffering the wrath of God. So the wrath of God is not the end of physical death of the earthly body...a nd the wrath of God is at the end of the world just like the last trump is. NOw here in the KJV in 1 COr 10:11 is the end of the world.
1 Cor 10

11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

All those living on earth at the time of the 7th trump will have their earthly
bodies destroyed at the same time......I don't know how to make it any
clearer,that's the reason Paul said we will not all sleep(die)....

I am aware of your understanding on this. The problem is the term sleep... you have cemented that to DIE as in the natural death and that is not the case. To sleep means to die alright but after that 'DIE' the person sleeps in the dust or wherever aware of nothing until the last trump when there is a resurrection of the dead.
AFTER the last trump or the 'from now on', believers continue to die. Therefore death of the earthly body carries on on earth so to no longer not have to sleep does not mean that people no longer physically die. The death we are talking about here is that death I mentioned from Romans 5
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Remember that Timothy told us that death was abolished?

2 Tim 1
10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

That was back in the time of 1 Cor 10:11 which reconciles with Romans 5 and fits also with 2 Tim 1:10. So the death at the last trump is not physical death, it is the death that Adam brought on us, the death that reigned from Adam until Moses which is the SLEEP which lasted until the last trump.
Further proof of that is John 11 where Jesus tells Martha she would never die. Martha did die the natural death of the earthly body but she lived on eternally in heaven because she was one who was alive and remaining at the coming of the son after the great tribulation. ... the last trump.

The trumpet sounds and flesh life for all is over,those on earth at this
time,are the one's Paul said would not die,the reason they won't die is because
they will be changed,without dying

You base this all on your definition of death in 1 Cor 15. I submit that you have the wrong definition. The change is not that the body is literally changed at the last trump... the sleep situation is changed.
I just had a new thought come to me concerning these verses. This has been right in front of us all along and I, for one, never saw it before!
1 cor 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

Not all sleep, but all are changed. So what change do you get if you are one who sleeps..or if you are changed in that you are instantly never dieing, what is the not all sleeping about?

noble

 

[noble]

The only death after the 7th trump is the death of the soul

I would say there is no death of the soul either but who knows. It says that the wicked are raiosed to be condemned. I take tht to be condemned to Hell, but I piurposely don't pay much attention to that side of it.

Just a further thought from your other post............

I don't know how to make it any clearer,that's the reason Paul said we will not
all sleep(die)....

You are taking the sleepers as being AFTER the last trump or beginning to sleep AT the time of the last trump. The situation is sleeping UP TO the last trump. Then at the last trump all the dead are raised.... those who are alive and remain can not be raised to life... they haven't died yet! 1 Thess 4:16 and 17.

noble

 

[reba]

Might be a good thing to define a few words. like sleep and die

What does the word die mean to you?

For me i means my body is done and my spirit is gone else where.

N2 Peter was crucified in our language he died. My Dad died we buried him. What do those words mean to you?

 

[Stormcrow]

It would probably help if people understood how the Jew defined such terms back then. After all, all of the apostles were Jews as was most of the early church, and the scripture Paul cited was from the Old Testament.

I find it both sad and hysterically funny that people try to understand Paul through the eyes of 21st century American evangelicalism. To do so isn't just nudging the house off it's foundation: it's knocking it two blocks down the street!

(And people wonder why they can't find the foundation anymore!) :crazy

 

[reba]

Storm dont you know life revolves around the USA?

 

[Sinthesis]

Storm dont you know life revolves around the USA?

Not just the USA, but only the right kind of people of the USA.

 

[noble]

Hi reba;

Might be a good thing to define a few words. like sleep and die

Imperative,yes.

What does the word die mean to you?
For me i means my body is done and my spirit is gone else where.

Most certainly that has to be one meaning. However, let's look at the example of John 11 again.
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

Here John tells us that even tho the 'He who believes' dies...he lives. That is the afterlife but we have to accept more than that. If this "HE" lives after he dies, then he never dies in whatever definition the bible is speaking of here. He DIES the natural or biological death but "HE" lives another life and that being the eternal spiritual or heavenly life which is AFTER biological death. So there is another 'dying' and another 'living' in the bible. There is of course the life and death of our earthly condition and there is also a dying and a living after the earthly situation is over.

There was a 'death' which reigned from Adam until Moses..... Romans 5:14. Many times you see this described as a 'spiritual' death, but I feel that is somewhat confusing. The death from Adam until Moses was the death which John 11 DOESN'T talk about. John 11 talks about LIVING after physical death which was not available to believers until after the last trump, eternal life in heaven. So Adam was supposed to live his earthly life, physically die and the inherit eternal heavenly life... but Adam ate the kiwi and blew the whole thing. That was the death that reigned until Jesus got it back for us at the time of Moses...end of that covenant.

So as we read John 11:26 we see:

26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?â€

Jesus told Martha right to her face, that those who LIVE and believe will never die!
Well, Martha physically lived and Martha believed BUT she did physically die so we can not read the verse totally literal.
I submit that here we have yet another meaning for LIVE! Martha lived until the time of the last trump before she physically died and therefore she NEVER died and lived on in the heavenly life after her physical death. Verse 25 would apply to those who died BEFORE the last trump in that they would physically die and later LIVE as they were resurrected to eternal life in heaven.

So life and death... yes the biblical definition of these words is a mountain of importance.

noble

 

[reba]

We are spiritually dead in sin and He is our resurrection and life....

Bet if we could speak Greek the words would be more clear....

 

[Vic C.]

It would probably help if people understood how the Jew defined such terms back then. After all, all of the apostles were Jews as was most of the early church, and the scripture Paul cited was from the Old Testament.

I find it both sad and hysterically funny that people try to understand Paul through the eyes of 21st century American evangelicalism. To do so isn't just nudging the house off it's foundation: it's knocking it two blocks down the street!

(And people wonder why they can't find the foundation anymore!) :crazy

It would also help if people understood what "the last trump" meant to a Jewish believer in Paul's day.

Note that the book of Revelation never uses the words "last" or " final" in relation to any trumpet. Also note that the trumpets blown in Revelation are angelic trumps, not trumps of God.

Once you realize this, you may be reluctant to associate these trumps with any trumps written about by Paul.

Read this: http://watch.pair.com/rosh-hashana.html

The shofar blown on Rosh HaShanah is known as the last trump, which the apostle Paul mentioned in First Thessalonians 4:16-17. At this time, the believers in Christ will escape the tribulation on earth and will be taken to Heaven in the Rapture along with the righteous who had died before this time.

The gates of Heaven are opened on Rosh HaShanah so the righteous nation may enter (Isaiah 26:2, Psalm 118:19-20). Because the gates of Heaven are understood to be open on Rosh HaShanah, this is further evidence that the Rapture of the believers in Christ will take place on Rosh HaShanah.

One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is to proclaim the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection of the dead will take place on Rosh HaShanah.

In First Corinthians 15:52, the apostle Paul tells us that the resurrection of the dead will be “at the last trump.†Earlier in First Corinthians 15:14, he wrote that without the Lord Jesus rising from the dead, our faith is in vain.

We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Pentecost (Exodus 19:19).

It proclaimed that God had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of Jesus back to the earth (Matthew 24:31).

The first and last trump relate to the two horns of the ram, which according to Jewish tradition, was caught in the thicket on Mount Moriah when Abraham was ready to slay Isaac and offer him up as a burnt offering. This ram became the substitute for Isaac even as Jesus became the substitute for us and provided life for us through His death.

That's it, three trumps pointing to the return of Messiah and the Resurrection. :yes

Still trying to figure out what all this has to do with God's Kingdom on earth. ;)

 

[noble]

We are spiritually dead in sin and He is our resurrection and life....

Bet if we could speak Greek the words would be more clear....

When youspeak of the spiritually dead, what would be a quick and simple definition? Can you justify any connection concerning Romans 5:14?

noble

 

[noble]

Hi Vic C.;

It would also help if people understood what "the last trump" meant to a Jewish
believer in Paul's day.

This last trump is defined by Paul as:
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

This one is the resurrection of the dead time as you mention later in this post. The resurrection if the dead is at the time of the distress, Daniel 12:2 and 3 at the coming as told by Matthew 25:31.... Meaning the very end of the great trib/very beginning of the parousia???

That's it, three trumps pointing to the return of Messiah and the
Resurrection.

:yes

Still trying to figure out what all this has to do with God's Kingdom on
earth. ;)

My question is not so much that in partcular, but I do not understand how that kingdom of God was within prior to that in Luke 17:20:

20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.â€

I have to assume that the "IS" is not present tense as we normally use it????? Well, the verb 'is' is indicative which "

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

I guess the sentence can be taken that the kingdom WILL be within you... what do you think?

noble

 

[reba]

God's Kingdom on Earth

...

Still trying to figure out what all this has to do with God's Kingdom on earth. ;)

Think that could be a hint to get totopic We know the guy with the read letters is the boss


Noble you are welcome to start a thread!

 

[Vic C.]

Well first off, I would turn to the very first time Jesus mentions the Kingdom:

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Are they being asked to repent for some kingdom that was far off in the future, possibly arriving sometime after their death? If the Lord's Kingdom is not of this world, is it more than just a physical Kingdom? If there is a spiritual aspect to the Kingdom, then it stands to reason it could very well be both inside and outside of us.

food for thought.

Paul isn't defining the meaning of the last trump. Those who he was writing to knew of this trump. Paul was telling them of the chain of events that would occur.

This is the definition:

It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year."

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

As for my overall beliefs of the End, it is hard to pin down. I believe as Newton and the Reformers did. The 70th. week was consecutive to the first 69. It started at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. It's midpoint was His crucifixion (3 1/2 half years later) and it's end was about the time Stephen was stoned and the Gospel was brought to Cornelius, the first Gentile to receive the Good News.

I guess you could say that is a part of the Historicist's view. Like the Historicist and Partial Preterist, I put much of prophecy as "history prewritten" for us. That means, I believe much, bot not all, of prophecy has been fulfilled.

I still believe in a future coming of Messiah, a resurrection of the dead and a transformation of the living, a final wrath and a final judgment. I just don't wrap it up in a seven year period. :yes

 

[Vic C.]

God's Kingdom on Earth


Think that could be a hint to get totopic We know the guy with the read letters is the boss


Noble you are welcome to start a thread!

Fair enough. :nod

 

[Stormcrow]

This may need a thread of its own:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=233&letter=R

Certainly requires further study. I like the fact that the Jewish Encyclopedia entry here on the resurrection does not ignore the New Testament writers. Interesting article.

OK. I'll start it.

 

[noble]

God's Kingdom on Earth


Think that could be a hint to get totopic We know the guy with the read letters is the boss


Noble you are welcome to start a thread!

Oops, ...but no I was aware that Vivc C is the owner or CEO of the site. He responded to my post as well which is quite nice of a busy guy, and I thank him for that.
We do have a new thread up from Stormcrow, but this kingdom on earth is interesting too.

noble

 

[noble]

Hi Vic C.;

Thanks for your response.

Well first off, I would turn to the very first time Jesus mentions the
Kingdom:

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Are they being asked to repent for some kingdom that was far off in the
future, possibly arriving sometime after their death? If the Lord's Kingdom is
not of this world, is it more than just a physical Kingdom? If there is a
spiritual aspect to the Kingdom, then it stands to reason it could very well be
both inside and outside of us.

food for thought.

I would agree that the kingdom of God is both inside and outside of us. The peace we feel within from the 'protection' (very poor word) of having God in our life plus the spiritual realm of eternal life in heaven.... something like that perhaps????

Paul isn't defining the meaning of the last trump. Those who he was writing
to knew of this trump. Paul was telling them of the chain of events that would
occur.

This is the definition:
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

There we see it some different... that's never happened before in biblical disccussion has it!!!!!

Here is one sentence from your link above.

And to Paul the 'Last Trump' was the time for Jesus' second advent and the
resurrection of the dead." (Martin, pg 96).

I see it as that as well.

As for my overall beliefs of the End, it is hard to pin down. I believe as
Newton and the Reformers did. The 70th. week was consecutive to the first 69. It
started at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. It's midpoint was His crucifixion
(3 1/2 half years later) and it's end was about the time Stephen was stoned and
the Gospel was brought to Cornelius, the first Gentile to receive the Good News.

Okay.

I guess you could say that is a part of the Historicist's view. Like the
Historicist and Partial Preterist, I put much of prophecy as "history
prewritten" for us. That means, I believe much, bot not all, of prophecy has
been fulfilled.

Okay.

I still believe in a future coming of Messiah, a resurrection of the dead and a
transformation of the living, a final wrath and a final judgment. I just don't
wrap it up in a seven year period. :yes

You and many others I would say. Maybe you have a slight different take on the seven years, do you?
Thank you for laying that out.
In that respect, I believe that MY second coming experience is yet future at which point I may face wrath of God or be raised to heavenly life. Where we differ is in the resurrection of the dead. I feel that took place a long time ago. That would be closer to the full preterist idea I guess, but I don't know how my future second coming idea fits with full preterism. This new thread may touch on this a bit.

Good talking to you.....

noble

 

[reba]

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


His Kingdom is simple and we work really hard to make it unreachable.

 

[jasoncran]

i believe that the kindgom of god is both as spritual thing and soon to be physical reality.

 

[LastSeven]

A "kingdom" is really just a king with "subjects" (for lack of a better word). We don't have to try to define a kingdom as being spiritual or physical. He is our king, and that alone defines His kingdom.

Of course eventually this kingdom will have a home, and God's throne will be among his people, but until then, what we have now is no less a kingdom.