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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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God's Sovereignty And The Church
- Thread starter dadof10
- Start date
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
Yea, I can see how it is difficult to admit that stars and chairs don't sin or that God was not made sin...
The problem is not the difficulty of the topic, but the difficulty in admitting you are wrong. This is the results of straying from the Church's teachings. Being so obstinate that you cannot say "yea, I need to think this over - stars don't have the ability to sin" or "how could Christ be literally made sin when Scriptures say He was WITHOUT sin"??? It comes from not thinking. It comes from inordinate pride.
Regards
Eventide
Member
- Jul 31, 2010
- 3,477
- 2
I admit that I'm wrong here Francis.. it's a complete waste of your time and mine to discuss these things with those who believe that they're the one true church.
So take pride in the fact that your assembly is the one true church and that all others are not up to that 'high and lofty' level.
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
God created man to share His love in a particular way, giving us a will and an intellect.
I think the tree of life is more a metaphor than an actual tree. I think it is speculation to think that ANY created object could last for eternity. I think it would take "glorious flesh", as Christ's flesh after the resurrection. The kind that could walk through walls or needed no food. That is the sort of "flesh" that would last through eternity. Sin causes "death" between the relationship between God and Adam. Adam did not die physically, but he was subject to the ordinary natural effects of decay. We do not know if Adam would have died, anyways... I am thinking God already knew that Adam would disobey, so it is not necessary to think that Adam was created "immortal" and then God took away that from Adam... What was lost was the relationship between God and man because of sin.
The point of the bible is to show this relationship is harmed by sin. The story of Adam and Eve point to humanity's propensity to sever their relationship with God by desiring to be "gods" themselves.
How do we know that? I think it is pushing the teachings of Genesis beyond its intent if we think that animals did not die before the sin in the garden. Does the Bible say that physical death entered the world after the sin? No, it says SIN entered into the world. The severing of the relationship between God and man, called spiritual death elsewhere.
Now, meat-eating creatures were on a diet and not eathing anything and then started to chase rabbits around after Adam sinned? This sounds too contrived and is not required to maintain the Genesis account. I think this is an incorrect assumption based on taking the Genesis account too literally.
I am not aware of what Calvinism teaches on this.
It is God who instills within us a soul. It is not something resulting from natural forces. Thus, God certainly could have "interrupted" His natural evolutionary flow and created a soul in a man, calling that particular man "Adam", the first "human", defined as a homo-sapien with a soul.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
My being Catholic is not an instance to brag, since it is God who called me to where I am. For whatever reason, whether I need all the help I can get through this fullness or whether to share these benefits with others, I don't know.
I have previously said that all baptized in water and the Spirit are part of the Church. Individuals can be part of the Church, but denominations, as an institution, are not part of the Church. There can only be one church established by Christ. If you can point me to some Scriptures that say otherwise, I am all ears.
But until then, I will continue to urge my separated brothers to return to the fullness that they were elected to when God called them.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
I would like to make an official correction to my recent posts, a retraction of some comments made to Eventide during our discussion on "the flesh profits for nothing". There are several reasons for this:
Allowing myself to be humbled and be transformed.
As a vocal Catholic, to more accurately express the faith of the Church.
To apologize for misleading information or comments made based on incorrect logic.
My comments begin on Eventide’s assumption that the verse “the flesh profits for nothing†refers to all material flesh being of no value. I believe my response in post #93 sums up a legitimate response to the separation of the spiritual and the material – that both are indeed important, since God made us both material and spiritual. God didn’t make us material for no purpose or value, and that the verse in John 6 refers more to "the fleshy mind cannot comprehend the spiritual". Ironically, I accuse Eventide of suffering from this - and then proceed to likewise utilize my "fleshy logic", rather than the faith of a teaching of the Church.
Eventide went to discuss how creation dies as a result of sin in #94:
God created all things and called them good.. like Him of course.. although when Adam fell in disobedience, that is WHY he died..
As I state, the Bible does not suggest that animals or other creation die because of sin. This led to my line of argument on “do stars commit sinâ€. The question is valid in suggesting that Eventide’s view is incorrect – that creation as a whole is not corrupted because of sin (but because of natural causes). My mistake was to go along with Eventide’s combining mankind with all of creation and not pointing out that the Bible’s discussion on sin and death refer only to man. Thus, my questioning takes on a spurious content. In #99, I state:
Where does the Bible state that physical death and destruction of matter is a result of sin??? Genesis states that God created goodness, not utter perfection.
This indeed is true, but it resulted in me making the rational assumption that man, too, falls under this exegesis. I go on to equate mountain's and star’s natural destruction with man’s natural destruction and spiritualize Paul’s “the wages of sin is deathâ€. Thus:
Thus, the wages of sin is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Sin in that realm is separation from God. Not physical death. Remember the end of Romans 8? Not even physical death can separate us from God. Thus, the wages of sin is not physical death, it is spiritual death.
I had forgotten a rule of Catholic interpretation of Scriptures: The literal is not swallowed by the spiritual. Thus, while it is likely that the references to death refers MORE to “spiritual deathâ€, they do not rule out the literal, physical death. I forgotten my earlier reference to the connection between the physical and the spiritual earlier. Valid arguments can be made regarding the death and sin refering to spiritual death, as in Gen 2:17 – Adam did not physically die ‘that day†he ate the forbidden fruit. And while Paul wrote “the wages of sin is death†in Romans 6:23, a few verses later, he defined death as connected to the carnal minded in Romans 8:6.
The only verse that definitively tells us that physical death is a result of sin is Wisdom 2:23, which is not even in Eventide's Bible.
For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him.
Now, what does the Church teach on how God created man? Was man created in an initial state of “incorruptibility†or not?
Catechism:
1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church's Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man's sin. Even though man's nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. "Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" is thus "the last enemy" of man left to be conquered.
Bodily death, not just spiritual.
Gaudium et Spes, “On the Church in the Worldâ€, Vatican 2 document, paragraph 18::
Although the mystery of death utterly beggars the imagination, the Church has been taught by divine revelation and firmly teaches that man has been created by God for a blissful purpose beyond the reach of earthly misery. In addition, that bodily death from which man would have been immune had he not sinned will be vanquished, according to the Christian faith, when man who was ruined by his own doing is restored to wholeness by an almighty and merciful Saviour.
Again, bodily death, taught by the Ordinary Magesterium,
Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas:
Question 97: The preservation of the individual in the primitive state;
Article 1. Whether in the state of innocence man would have been immortal?
…I answer that, A thing may be incorruptible in three ways… Thirdly, a thing may be incorruptible on the part of its efficient cause; in this sense man was incorruptible and immortal in the state of innocence. For, as Augustine says: "God made man immortal as long as he did not sin; so that he might achieve for himself life or death." For man's body was indissoluble not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a supernatural force given by God to the soul, whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as it remained itself subject to God. This entirely agrees with reason; for since the rational soul surpasses the capacity of corporeal matter, it was most properly endowed at the beginning with the power of preserving the body in a manner surpassing the capacity of corporeal matter.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1097.htm
Man is not on the same plane as the rest of creation. His soul makes him in the image of God. By an act of God, man's entire self is preserved from corruption. This of course leads us to agree with Paul – that not only is the wages of sin SPIRITUAL death, but it is also PHYSICAL death.
St. Augustine taught that the gift of immortality is to be conceived as “the possibility of not dyingâ€, rather than “the impossibility of dying†The Fathers regarded bodily immortality as being transmitted through the tree of life.
Thus, man was not given immortality as a natural function of being man, but as a gift, depending upon man’s response to God, a gift lost after sin. This resulted in Adam eventually undergoing the punishment of sin, spiritual separation from God on that day (Gen 2:17) and physical death much later in life.
I hope this post clarifies the Catholic position, points out my error, and serves as an apology for this mistake. It is indeed the teaching of the Church that man, prior to sin, was not subject to the natural effects of decay, and only when sin entered into the world did man also became corruptible, just as ordinary nature already was.
Regards
Allowing myself to be humbled and be transformed.
As a vocal Catholic, to more accurately express the faith of the Church.
To apologize for misleading information or comments made based on incorrect logic.
My comments begin on Eventide’s assumption that the verse “the flesh profits for nothing†refers to all material flesh being of no value. I believe my response in post #93 sums up a legitimate response to the separation of the spiritual and the material – that both are indeed important, since God made us both material and spiritual. God didn’t make us material for no purpose or value, and that the verse in John 6 refers more to "the fleshy mind cannot comprehend the spiritual". Ironically, I accuse Eventide of suffering from this - and then proceed to likewise utilize my "fleshy logic", rather than the faith of a teaching of the Church.
Eventide went to discuss how creation dies as a result of sin in #94:
God created all things and called them good.. like Him of course.. although when Adam fell in disobedience, that is WHY he died..
As I state, the Bible does not suggest that animals or other creation die because of sin. This led to my line of argument on “do stars commit sinâ€. The question is valid in suggesting that Eventide’s view is incorrect – that creation as a whole is not corrupted because of sin (but because of natural causes). My mistake was to go along with Eventide’s combining mankind with all of creation and not pointing out that the Bible’s discussion on sin and death refer only to man. Thus, my questioning takes on a spurious content. In #99, I state:
Where does the Bible state that physical death and destruction of matter is a result of sin??? Genesis states that God created goodness, not utter perfection.
This indeed is true, but it resulted in me making the rational assumption that man, too, falls under this exegesis. I go on to equate mountain's and star’s natural destruction with man’s natural destruction and spiritualize Paul’s “the wages of sin is deathâ€. Thus:
Thus, the wages of sin is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Sin in that realm is separation from God. Not physical death. Remember the end of Romans 8? Not even physical death can separate us from God. Thus, the wages of sin is not physical death, it is spiritual death.
I had forgotten a rule of Catholic interpretation of Scriptures: The literal is not swallowed by the spiritual. Thus, while it is likely that the references to death refers MORE to “spiritual deathâ€, they do not rule out the literal, physical death. I forgotten my earlier reference to the connection between the physical and the spiritual earlier. Valid arguments can be made regarding the death and sin refering to spiritual death, as in Gen 2:17 – Adam did not physically die ‘that day†he ate the forbidden fruit. And while Paul wrote “the wages of sin is death†in Romans 6:23, a few verses later, he defined death as connected to the carnal minded in Romans 8:6.
The only verse that definitively tells us that physical death is a result of sin is Wisdom 2:23, which is not even in Eventide's Bible.
For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him.
Now, what does the Church teach on how God created man? Was man created in an initial state of “incorruptibility†or not?
Catechism:
1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church's Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man's sin. Even though man's nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. "Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" is thus "the last enemy" of man left to be conquered.
Bodily death, not just spiritual.
Gaudium et Spes, “On the Church in the Worldâ€, Vatican 2 document, paragraph 18::
Although the mystery of death utterly beggars the imagination, the Church has been taught by divine revelation and firmly teaches that man has been created by God for a blissful purpose beyond the reach of earthly misery. In addition, that bodily death from which man would have been immune had he not sinned will be vanquished, according to the Christian faith, when man who was ruined by his own doing is restored to wholeness by an almighty and merciful Saviour.
Again, bodily death, taught by the Ordinary Magesterium,
Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas:
Question 97: The preservation of the individual in the primitive state;
Article 1. Whether in the state of innocence man would have been immortal?
…I answer that, A thing may be incorruptible in three ways… Thirdly, a thing may be incorruptible on the part of its efficient cause; in this sense man was incorruptible and immortal in the state of innocence. For, as Augustine says: "God made man immortal as long as he did not sin; so that he might achieve for himself life or death." For man's body was indissoluble not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a supernatural force given by God to the soul, whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as it remained itself subject to God. This entirely agrees with reason; for since the rational soul surpasses the capacity of corporeal matter, it was most properly endowed at the beginning with the power of preserving the body in a manner surpassing the capacity of corporeal matter.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1097.htm
Man is not on the same plane as the rest of creation. His soul makes him in the image of God. By an act of God, man's entire self is preserved from corruption. This of course leads us to agree with Paul – that not only is the wages of sin SPIRITUAL death, but it is also PHYSICAL death.
St. Augustine taught that the gift of immortality is to be conceived as “the possibility of not dyingâ€, rather than “the impossibility of dying†The Fathers regarded bodily immortality as being transmitted through the tree of life.
Thus, man was not given immortality as a natural function of being man, but as a gift, depending upon man’s response to God, a gift lost after sin. This resulted in Adam eventually undergoing the punishment of sin, spiritual separation from God on that day (Gen 2:17) and physical death much later in life.
I hope this post clarifies the Catholic position, points out my error, and serves as an apology for this mistake. It is indeed the teaching of the Church that man, prior to sin, was not subject to the natural effects of decay, and only when sin entered into the world did man also became corruptible, just as ordinary nature already was.
Regards
jasoncran
Member
- May 17, 2009
- 38,271
- 185
food for thought as i will have too look at the idea of creation as whole not being affected, ie that the animals die from eating and be eaten by men or each other. well the account says specifically that the animals were made to be herbivores and so was man, after the flood there was some change to men, and at least animals in they did have a fear of men.if noah already ate animals then why did god tell adam that he may eat animals if that was already so?
also if animals were carnivores and didnt have the dread of man upon them surely some of them would have tried to eat man.
also if animals were carnivores and didnt have the dread of man upon them surely some of them would have tried to eat man.