God's Sovereignty And The Church

[Eventide]

We have been promised a bodily resurrection, just as Christ resurrected. He is the protype of what we will become. Yes, we will die, but our bodies will be resurrected. Just as Jesus' body was resurrected.

I understand that.. that's not the point.. the point is why is THIS PRESENT BODY WHICH WE HAVE dying..?

Desperate?

Why would I get desperate when talking to you?

It sounded like you doubted that our bodies would rise and that the flesh is of no value, no consequence. However, God's plan clearly promises that we will be united with flesh, albeit incorruptible flesh. Thus, you misinterpret John 6 and your idea that "flesh is of no value".

You sound desparate because you started talking about things which I never mentioned.. I'm asking you WHY this body that we have is perishing.. decaying.. rotting as you say...

What profit does eating Christ physically have if your flesh is rotting away ?

I think science explains why flesh that has become lifeless rots away, if you are interested in that. I don't think you need the Bible on that.

I'd be interested in your answer.. so please explain why your flesh is rotting away and what profit there is to eating Christ physically if it is rotting away..

 

[Eventide]

Yes and no to your questions.

The profit is at the spiritual level, for the flesh of Christ does not fulfill the needs of the stomach. And yet, Jesus gives us His entire self.

Regards

Would you explain how eating something physically (in this case, flesh) can profit you spiritually ?

 

[Eventide]

Yes and no to your questions.

The profit is at the spiritual level, for the flesh of Christ does not fulfill the needs of the stomach. And yet, Jesus gives us His entire self.

Regards

And looking at your response here... you're in agreement that YOUR flesh profits nothing at all.. correct..?.. otherwise, what do you mean that the profit is at the spiritual level..?

 

[Eventide]

Francis..

Are you suggesting that this portion of Genesis has no bearing at all as to WHY we die..?

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[francisdesales]

You sound desparate because you started talking about things which I never mentioned.. I'm asking you WHY this body that we have is perishing.. decaying.. rotting as you say...

Flesh decays after it dies. It becomes 'corrupted'. Apparently, it is God's will that the laws of science work in this way. ALL of creation is subject to such corruption. Not just human flesh. That is the nature of created objects.

What profit does eating Christ physically have if your flesh is rotting away ?

What profit does receiving anything from God profit you, since you are rotting away? Is that your question? That in only the spiritual realm, we are able to profit? That any "fleshy" and "temporal" blessings are pointless? Again, I am not quite sure where you are going with this line of questioning, so please explain yourself better.

I'd be interested in your answer.. so please explain why your flesh is rotting away and what profit there is to eating Christ physically if it is rotting away..

This is a twisting of your original concern about "the flesh profits for nothing". Supposedly, the words of Christ in John 6:51-58 are canceled out by "the flesh profits for nothing", knowing FULL WELL that the flesh of Christ profits EVERYTHING for us, since it is His fleshy death on the cross the redeems the world. Jesus didn't make it a habit of saying "Amen, Amen", then change His mind...

But rather than address that in my original statement, you are trying to twist things around to this new direction.

If the flesh of Christ profits for nothing, since THAT is the context of John 6, you remain unsaved. The words of "the flesh profits for nothing" refers to the human brain's inability to rationalize the eating of Christ's flesh as salvific. Note the concern here, about Jews not accepting this HARD SAYING? It is only the mind led by the Spirit, called by the Father through faith (note that this discourse deals with faith and the call by the Father) that can "profit" from this doctrine. He says "Some here do not believe" immediately after "the flesh profits for nothing". Quite obviously, Jesus is talking about believing and unbelieving, not on a material v spiritual contrast.

In other words, human rationale thought cannot lead to faith in the Eucharist. That is the downfall of the unbelieving non-catholic on this issue. They rely on their own fleshy materialistic minds that cannot accept the simple words of Jesus, rather than trusting in the Spirit of God by faith. It is by faith that we believe that eating Christ's flesh is possible and beneficial. This faith is a gift from God to those whom He calls.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

And looking at your response here... you're in agreement that YOUR flesh profits nothing at all.. correct..?.. otherwise, what do you mean that the profit is at the spiritual level..?

I did not state the my flesh profits for nothing, so kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

The caloric intake of the Eucharist profits little. At the digestive level, eating the Eucharist is of little benefit. We PHYSICALLY EAT THE FLESH OF CHRIST FOR SPIRITUAL PURPOSES.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francis..

Are you suggesting that this portion of Genesis has no bearing at all as to WHY we die..?

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

did I not refer to Romans 6 that states that the wages of sin is death? (post #76)

Regards

 

[Eventide]

did I not refer to Romans 6 that states that the wages of sin is death? (post #76)

Regards

So then you do believe that the flesh is condemned.. I had originally thought that you said it wasn't..

 

[Eventide]

I did not state the my flesh profits for nothing, so kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

The caloric intake of the Eucharist profits little. At the digestive level, eating the Eucharist is of little benefit. We PHYSICALLY EAT THE FLESH OF CHRIST FOR SPIRITUAL PURPOSES.

Regards

OK, so now it profits LITTLE... lol...

Why not just agree with the word of God in that your flesh profits nothing..

 

[Eventide]

Flesh decays after it dies. It becomes 'corrupted'. Apparently, it is God's will that the laws of science work in this way. ALL of creation is subject to such corruption. Not just human flesh. That is the nature of created objects.

I want to know WHY though Francis.. was it created this way (to die and decay) or is this a result of the sentence passed down from the LORD because of Adam's transgression..?

What profit does receiving anything from God profit you, since you are rotting away? Is that your question? That in only the spiritual realm, we are able to profit? That any "fleshy" and "temporal" blessings are pointless? Again, I am not quite sure where you are going with this line of questioning, so please explain yourself better.

It's simple.. you claim that you're literally eating FLESH.. and I asked you what profit there is in that if our FLESH is condemned.. dying... decaying...

This is a twisting of your original concern about "the flesh profits for nothing". Supposedly, the words of Christ in John 6:51-58 are canceled out by "the flesh profits for nothing", knowing FULL WELL that the flesh of Christ profits EVERYTHING for us, since it is His fleshy death on the cross the redeems the world. Jesus didn't make it a habit of saying "Amen, Amen", then change His mind...

But rather than address that in my original statement, you are trying to twist things around to this new direction.

If the flesh of Christ profits for nothing, since THAT is the context of John 6, you remain unsaved. The words of "the flesh profits for nothing" refers to the human brain's inability to rationalize the eating of Christ's flesh as salvific. Note the concern here, about Jews not accepting this HARD SAYING? It is only the mind led by the Spirit, called by the Father through faith (note that this discourse deals with faith and the call by the Father) that can "profit" from this doctrine. He says "Some here do not believe" immediately after "the flesh profits for nothing". Quite obviously, Jesus is talking about believing and unbelieving, not on a material v spiritual contrast.

In other words, human rationale thought cannot lead to faith in the Eucharist. That is the downfall of the unbelieving non-catholic on this issue. They rely on their own fleshy materialistic minds that cannot accept the simple words of Jesus, rather than trusting in the Spirit of God by faith. It is by faith that we believe that eating Christ's flesh is possible and beneficial. This faith is a gift from God to those whom He calls.

Regards

You're the one who is twisting this around... I never once said that Christ's flesh profits nothing... He gave Himself (His flesh) for the sin of the world..

OUR FLESH profits nothing.. and there's a simple reason... IT'S CONDEMNED..

 

[francisdesales]

So then you do believe that the flesh is condemned.. I had originally thought that you said it wasn't..

I take Paul's meaning differently. Your view leads to a Gnostic view of the flesh. Paul appreciated the fact that Christ rose in the flesh.

This flesh we live in currently will eventually die. If that is what you mean by "condemned", then certainly. Does this mean that all creation is "condemned"? Stars, planets, bugs, all condemned because of their sin??? Is this what Paul means by "the wages of sin is death"? That the REASON stars explode is because of THEIR SIN??? That is how you are interpreting the passage.

God did not create the universe in a perfect state. Creation is straining towards that perfection, groaning, according to Paul.

Frankly, the Bible doesn't tell us whether Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they hadn't sinned - so we don't know whether we would have died anyways. When Paul says "the wages of sin is death", can we know that he was refering to physical death or spiritual death? I think one could argue that he was speaking of spiritual death, which is the context of the Bible. Physical death is something that cannot be avoided, whether we sin or not. Spiritual death is caused by sin.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

OK, so now it profits LITTLE... lol...

Why not just agree with the word of God in that your flesh profits nothing..

Then you remain in your sins, since Christ's flesh, a man's flesh, profited for nothing.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It's simple.. you claim that you're literally eating FLESH.. and I asked you what profit there is in that if our FLESH is condemned.. dying... decaying...

You are separating the spiritual and the physical without reason. This is the mistake of Gnosticism. There is an overlap between the physical and the spiritual - which is at the heart of the sacramental system.

People are baptized with water because of its spiritual effectiveness. The physical water does not cleanse the spiritual soul. And yet, the Church has believed what Christ taught - that one must be born from above by water and the Spirit. The symbol of water is powerful in Scriptures. And thus, the physical moves the mind to the spiritual. That is why we don't baptize with motor oil. It does not give the impression that one is being spiritually cleansed. Peter understood this when he suggested the same thing - that we are cleansed through water, but not as a normal bath.

The same is true of the Eucharist, or any other sacrament. The actions of the physical world overlap with the actions done in the spiritual realm by God Himself, Who has promised the effectiveness of the physical into the spiritual. Thus, the REQUIREMENT to be baptized leads to eternal life. Being physically baptized by water opens the door for one to enter into the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ. It makes available to us eternal life. Just as the Eucharist does. The physical leads to the spiritual.

How does this work? The fleshy mind cannot comprehend or rationalize such an item that relies entirely on faith. Do we see the Spirit come upon the man/woman/child during baptism? No. If we put the Eucharist under a microscope, it appears as bread. (with the exception of Eucharistic miracles) It is not empirically possible to prove it, ordinarily. We cannot even prove the existence of God, empirically speaking. We believe, based upon faith. And we believe that God acts in this world through the sacraments, physical actions done FOR THE PURPOSE OF OUR SPIRITUAL LIFE.

Thus, we eat the flesh of Christ for the purpose of our spiritual life. That union of Jesus, at the most basic level, breeds an abiding presence in the spiritual sense. The physical sense of digestion leads to the spiritually abiding presence.

It is inconsequential that our body is "dying", as you say. We continue to receive spiritual gifts from God - as well as physical ones - despite our eventual demise in the flesh. Receiving worldly/fleshy/temporal gifts is not pointless, nor are those gifts so limited that they have no spiritual benefits. Receiving a physical gift overlaps into the spiritual realm, since receiving a physical gift breeds a number of spiritual reactions - thanksgiving, appreciation, praise of God, a reciprocal desire to act, etc... You point of view places the physical and the spiritual into separate boxes that cannot overlap. Clearly, this is anti-Biblical, as the Bible, from cover to cover, is full of God reaching to us in the physical world. A spiritual being enters into the physical through the Incarnation!!! Remember? By faith, I believe this.

You're the one who is twisting this around... I never once said that Christ's flesh profits nothing... He gave Himself (His flesh) for the sin of the world..

No, I'm afraid you still do not see where your point leads...

YOU said the "flesh profits for nothing" - meaning that there is no point in flesh regarding our spiritual well-being, since it is corrupted/condemned. Taking YOUR definition, that is exactly where your point leads... If the physical flesh is corrupt/condemned - because it dies - then Christ's flesh was corrupt/condemned. Death is a sign of corruption, according to you. Thus, how is it that a corrupted/condemned flesh saves? What was the POINT of "corrupted flesh" physically dying? That was the exact same line of reasoning regarding the Gnostics of the first century - saying that Jesus didn't die in the flesh... Your viewpoint is a modern day Gnostic, not orthodox Christianity.

OUR FLESH profits nothing.. and there's a simple reason... IT'S CONDEMNED..

That's clearly not what Christ meant and I see you refuse to address the text. Your failure to understand that is an indication that mimics the Jewish situation in John 6 and those who went away as they tried to contemplate the words of Jesus with their fleshy minds, rather than allowing the Spirit to enable them to believe. Your fleshy mind profits nothing, as it cannot bring forth faith. You cannot conjure up faith from your fleshy mind. It profits for nothing - it is only the spirit that gives life.

Accept that Jesus did not say "YOU MUST EAT MY FLESH" and then a few verses later, changed His mind...

Regards

 

[Eventide]

I take Paul's meaning differently. Your view leads to a Gnostic view of the flesh. Paul appreciated the fact that Christ rose in the flesh.

I also believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose bodily.. flesh and bone as He showed to His disciples..

This flesh we live in currently will eventually die. If that is what you mean by "condemned", then certainly.

And that's the point.. our flesh is condemned.. every last one of us in Adam is under the same condemnation.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Does this mean that all creation is "condemned"? Stars, planets, bugs, all condemned because of their sin??? Is this what Paul means by "the wages of sin is death"? That the REASON stars explode is because of THEIR SIN??? That is how you are interpreting the passage.

This is certainly WHY WE DIE.. exactly as the holy scriptures say in simplicity.. the wages of sin is death.

God did not create the universe in a perfect state. Creation is straining towards that perfection, groaning, according to Paul.

I disagree... God created all things and called them good.. like Him of course.. although when Adam fell in disobedience, that is WHY he died.. exactly as God said.. and it seems to me that some people can't believe this simple biblical fact.

Frankly, the Bible doesn't tell us whether Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they hadn't sinned - so we don't know whether we would have died anyways. When Paul says "the wages of sin is death", can we know that he was refering to physical death or spiritual death? I think one could argue that he was speaking of spiritual death, which is the context of the Bible. Physical death is something that cannot be avoided, whether we sin or not. Spiritual death is caused by sin.

Regards

SIN is the cause of death, both physical and spiritual... and Paul writes that death is an enemy still.. and that's within the context of the resurrection of the dead.. not just spiritually, but physically.. bolidy.

 

[Eventide]

Then you remain in your sins, since Christ's flesh, a man's flesh, profited for nothing.

Regards

You speak as though there's no difference between the Lord Jesus Christ (God manifest in the flesh) and His creation.. as if our flesh is no different than His..

Although of course that's not true at all.. we have SIN IN US, in our members whereas the Lord Jesus Christ has no sin in Him, did no sin, and knew no sin. He was made sin for us, who knew no sin, that WE might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM..

 

[francisdesales]

I also believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose bodily.. flesh and bone as He showed to His disciples..

Not really, when coupled with "the flesh profits for nothing".

If the flesh profits for nothing, then why did God become flesh? Why did that flesh die, if it profits for nothing... Christ's flesh is human flesh. Or did He not become man?

And that's the point.. our flesh is condemned.. every last one of us in Adam is under the same condemnation.

Again, does this mean that planets blow up because they sinned???

This is certainly WHY WE DIE.. exactly as the holy scriptures say in simplicity.. the wages of sin is death.

What sort of death?

A sinless person died! Objects that cannot sin die.

I take Paul's meaning to refer to the spiritual death that results from sinning. We are condemned in our state of original sin. We have lost original grace, and we are all condemned to SPIRITUAL death without an intervention from God Himself. We are all condemned without Christ Himself becoming a man, in the flesh.

I disagree... God created all things and called them good.. like Him of course.. although when Adam fell in disobedience, that is WHY he died.. exactly as God said.. and it seems to me that some people can't believe this simple biblical fact.

You are not answering the question. If a star was created good, and didn't sin, why does it die? According to you, it must sin before it can die.

SIN is the cause of death, both physical and spiritual... and Paul writes that death is an enemy still.. and that's within the context of the resurrection of the dead.. not just spiritually, but physically.. bolidy.

What sin does a star commit, again???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You speak as though there's no difference between the Lord Jesus Christ (God manifest in the flesh) and His creation.. as if our flesh is no different than His..

It isn't different. It got hungry, got tired, and it was pierced, wounded and died, just as an ordinary human in that situation.

Sin is not found "in the flesh", the hands or my skin. Sin is found in the heart, according to Christ. It is the heart where sin comes from. My hands do the will of my heart and when my heart desires sin, it causes my hand to sin.

Jesus was like us in all ways but sin. This means the heart differed. Not the flesh.

Although of course that's not true at all.. we have SIN IN US, in our members whereas the Lord Jesus Christ has no sin in Him, did no sin, and knew no sin. He was made sin for us, who knew no sin, that WE might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM..

Sin does not dwell in our "flesh", it dwells in our heart. Again, you are transposing Paul's "fleshy ways" v "spiritual ways" with the idea of the "flesh" - body parts - and the "spirit" - which is invisible.

My hand has no sin in it, unless my heart tells it to smack people.

And second of all, Jesus wasn't MADE SIN for us!!! That's another misunderstanding of Sacred Scriptures. The very definition of "sin" cannot co-exist with God in the manner that Jesus claims He co-exists with the Father. He remained divine while on earth, so how is it that the Second Person of the Trinity WAS SIN???

He suffers the punishment of sin, He didn't BECOME sin. That's crazy talk.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

It isn't different. It got hungry, got tired, and it was pierced, wounded and died, just as an ordinary human in that situation.

Sin is not found "in the flesh", the hands or my skin. Sin is found in the heart, according to Christ. It is the heart where sin comes from. My hands do the will of my heart and when my heart desires sin, it causes my hand to sin.

Jesus was like us in all ways but sin. This means the heart differed. Not the flesh.

I agree with this.. especially the distinction between Christ having NO SIN IN HIM as contrasted to His creatures which DO HAVE SIN in their members..

Sin does not dwell in our "flesh", it dwells in our heart. Again, you are transposing Paul's "fleshy ways" v "spiritual ways" with the idea of the "flesh" - body parts - and the "spirit" - which is invisible.

My hand has no sin in it, unless my heart tells it to smack people.

You are dying... just like every one else in Adam.. returning to the dust from which we were formed.. your HANDS included.. it's not just spiritual death, it's physical death..

And second of all, Jesus wasn't MADE SIN for us!!! That's another misunderstanding of Sacred Scriptures. The very definition of "sin" cannot co-exist with God in the manner that Jesus claims He co-exists with the Father. He remained divine while on earth, so how is it that the Second Person of the Trinity WAS SIN???

He suffers the punishment of sin, He didn't BECOME sin. That's crazy talk.

Regards

Tell it to Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.. who tells us that God hath made HIM to be sin for us, who knew no sin... and tell it to Peter too... because he writes that HE bore our SINS in HIS OWN BODY on the tree..

IMO this all comes down to people thinking that they're good.. that their life is justified before God because of their own worth so to speak.. rather than the simple truth of the scriptures which teach that there are none good but one, and that is God.

 

[francisdesales]

I agree with this.. especially the distinction between Christ having NO SIN IN HIM as contrasted to His creatures which DO HAVE SIN in their members..

"IN HIM". Yes, in the spiritual heart. Man's aorta does not have sin. Man's ventricles have no sin. Nor do our lungs. Nor does the cerebullum. Are you getting the point here? Sin dwells in the recesses of the mind and the intellect and the will. What the Bible amalgamates into "the heart". That is where murder and lies and so forth come from. Not my fingers or my tongue. Those are mindless instruments that perform the actions that my "heart" tell them to do.

You are dying... just like every one else in Adam.. returning to the dust from which we were formed.. your HANDS included.. it's not just spiritual death, it's physical death..

Where does the Bible state that physical death and destruction of matter is a result of sin??? Genesis states that God created goodness, not utter perfection. A chair can be quantified as good, and that doesn't suggest that it cannot fall apart in 1000 years... It can be corrupted - even if the chair never has any lustful feelings for the married Ottoman sitting nearby...

You have yet to answer why stars or chairs become destroyed. I take it you choose not to admit you are misreading the Bible, since it is foolish to admit that chairs break because they are sinners... ;)

Thus, we must admit that you are wrong and that nature ordinarily is corruptible. Things created in the material world eventually are destroyed. Mountains wear away and stars collapse into black holes. That is God's Will.

God is concerned with our spiritual life. God did not create perfection. He willed that ALL things journey to that perfection, which does not occur until ALL things are in God, at the end of time. Thus, the wages of sin is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Sin in that realm is separation from God. Not physical death. Remember the end of Romans 8? Not even physical death can separate us from God. Thus, the wages of sin is not physical death, it is spiritual death.

Tell it to Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.. who tells us that God hath made HIM to be sin for us, who knew no sin... and tell it to Peter too... because he writes that HE bore our SINS in HIS OWN BODY on the tree..

You misunderstand the citation from Paul. I have already explained. If you want more discussion, put forth the verse and your explanation of how God is now or ever sin while remaining God!!!... And as to Peter, bearing sin means bearing the punishment, not that He became sin. It is quite clear that God does not become the opposite of God.

IMO this all comes down to people thinking that they're good.. that their life is justified before God because of their own worth so to speak.. rather than the simple truth of the scriptures which teach that there are none good but one, and that is God.

IMO, you are performing a gross generalization with little supporting evidence. I hold a different point of view on these subjects, and yet, my signature line chosen speaks loudly about disagreeing with your generalization. I am justified because of God. Without God, I cannot have faith. He moves my will to believe, hope and love. Where is your evidence that I think "I am good", simply because you cannot comprehend the Scriptures? Have I made such statements? Do you know my personal walk?

So you are now stooping to name calling and categorizing me into that "group" of self-justified people, just because you cannot answer some simple questions...

Falling back on the "simple truth of the Scriptures" depends upon personal interpretation - they are not so simple as you pretend. If they were, you would have no trouble providing me numerous verses from different contexts that would tell me that material things die because they sin - or that God became sin!

No, in both cases, you are incorrect. I think I have done what is necessary to overturn your opinion, if you were open to listening. If you think not, then answer my simple questions.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

francis, without getting into science debate or derailing this thread. i see the thiestic evolutionist in your exegesis not that God is calling our flesh in the sense of blood and so on evil but that in our current estate of sin and the death that adam brought upon men.

1) what was adams purpose on the earth?
2) what was the purpose of the tree of life if eternity in the flesh wasnt the goal of god for men? why then would god command adam to subdue the earth if he wasnt meant to be here forever?
3) while i see that if adam didnt know death from animals dying or humans , for your position leaves that you would have to believe in some type of calvanism as the h.neatherdals that were next too adam and eve that didnt have souls or sin are now dead and neither in heaven or hell , yet were aware of the words of God. surely that had freewill and the ability to do creative acts and abstract ideas. yet no soul?