God's Sovereignty And The Church

[francisdesales]

So we're all catholic !

Those who have been baptized with water and in the name of the Trinity are Catholic, in some mysterious means, united to the Body of Christ. My discussion is over the "degrees of fullness", if you will, and where we can find it. Man is being led to know the truth, and he will seek its fullness.

"We" are all Christians. We all share in a number of beliefs, Catholic (universal) beliefs, such as "Jesus rose from the dead, died for our sins". That is a Catholic belief, taught to the world. Some communities, however, for whatever reason, have put aside particulars of what was given to the apostolic communities. This does not remove them from the Catholic Church (unless there is a formal excommunication of individual self), but such a person has "less to work with", so to speak, in coming to Christ.

What this means is that the fullness of the Church is found in the Catholic Church. However, many Catholics have taken for granted what they have available to them, the Eucharist, sacramental Confession, etc. Meanwhile, other "mysterious Catholics" residing in "non-Catholic communities" are managing to utilize their more-limited gifts from the Spirit to a more efficient degree and manner (judging by an individual's works of love, etc.) Thus, we are able to understand that some "Protestants" are indeed outside of visible community, but considered Catholic in that they are part of the Church in a limited fashion, as witnessed to the action of the Spirit, Whom works within the Church.

I hope that makes sense. I am thinking that "to those who have been given much, much will be expected" is directed at those in the visible Catholic Church and that we especially need to be lights to the world. We claim to have the Eucharist - are we utilizing the graces given there?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Paul and Peter Catholic? I don't think so sir.

Did these two gentleman teach only Jews, as the OT, or did the Christ send them for the sake of the world, just as HE came for the world?

The Messiah's role is universal - it is only fitting that the community He established and left behind would be universal, spreading the ministry of redemption throughout the world.

Isn't that the definition of "catholic"???

Now, if you can't provide some alternative evidence to the contrary, merely saying "no they weren't" is just not going to be very convincing....

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Those who have been baptized with water and in the name of the Trinity are Catholic, in some mysterious means, united to the Body of Christ. My discussion is over the "degrees of fullness", if you will, and where we can find it. Man is being led to know the truth, and he will seek its fullness.

"We" are all Christians. We all share in a number of beliefs, Catholic (universal) beliefs, such as "Jesus rose from the dead, died for our sins". That is a Catholic belief, taught to the world. Some communities, however, for whatever reason, have put aside particulars of what was given to the apostolic communities. This does not remove them from the Catholic Church (unless there is a formal excommunication of individual self), but such a person has "less to work with", so to speak, in coming to Christ.

What this means is that the fullness of the Church is found in the Catholic Church. However, many Catholics have taken for granted what they have available to them, the Eucharist, sacramental Confession, etc. Meanwhile, other "mysterious Catholics" residing in "non-Catholic communities" are managing to utilize their more-limited gifts from the Spirit to a more efficient degree and manner (judging by an individual's works of love, etc.) Thus, we are able to understand that some "Protestants" are indeed outside of visible community, but considered Catholic in that they are part of the Church in a limited fashion, as witnessed to the action of the Spirit, Whom works within the Church.

I hope that makes sense. I am thinking that "to those who have been given much, much will be expected" is directed at those in the visible Catholic Church and that we especially need to be lights to the world. We claim to have the Eucharist - are we utilizing the graces given there?

Regards

It makes sense and I understand what you're saying.. and ultimately you're saying that there are multitudes unknown who have absolutely nothing to do with the Roman Catholic church and yet are essential members of the church of God..

So it's really 'silly' (for lack of a better word) to believe or teach that the RCC is the one true church..

 

[francisdesales]

It makes sense and I understand what you're saying.. and ultimately you're saying that there are multitudes unknown who have absolutely nothing to do with the Roman Catholic church and yet are essential members of the church of God..

So it's really 'silly' (for lack of a better word) to believe or teach that the RCC is the one true church..

Your first paragraph, in essence, is true. Would God be a just God if He condemned billions to death because they never heard about Jesus of Nazareth? It is my opinion that 1 John 5:12 covers the essence of salvation - in its simplest form.

John 6 gives us one way of fulfilling 1 John 5:12, doesn't it?

And saying this is also saying one is part of the Catholic Church... Christ only formed one church, a universal one. Whether people know they are part of that visible Church or not does not appear absolutely necessary for salvation. However, the discussion comes back to "fullness of revelation". The "tools" available to us are of a larger set. Being in Christ is more secure while within the visible (and simultaneously being in Christ in spirit).

Where else do we find the Eucharist at its most sublime level? "Visible" confession - there is a huge difference between sacramental and "private" confession. Psychologically, the former is indeed more healing. The central teachings that focus on what is primary - God and Who He is, the Doctrine of the Trinity. THAT is more important than "faith alone", which is not even biblical. This doctrinal focus directs us more so to what is at the heart of Christianity, rather than just another salvation religion. Religion is more than just a soothing of the soul. It is first and foremost worship and praise of our God - and He had been MOST merciful and loving towards us. This trumps any idea that "salvation by faith - alone or not - is the center of our religion.

Where can we go to get an authoritative ruling on what we are to believe about God? If Christianity is a revealed revelation by God to man, it follows that there are particular truths and fallacies about interpretation of the Word of God found in Scriptures. Relativism is out - as the Pope so eloquently states. It becomes apparent from even the Bible that such a medium was established by our Architect, Jesus Himself, as in Matt 18:17-18, or Paul's various discussions on authority in the Pastorals.

These things above just touch on some of the important aspects of why being a member of the visible one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church is important to me or any seeker of God. The various "denominational groups" are not of themselves "the Church". There is only ONE Church. However, the members of these communities, "Protestants", certainly can be members of that ONE Church, in a limited manner. We pray that someday, we all will be as one.

Whether here on in the next world to come.

So I do not understand why you say it is "silly". Searching for truth is not "silly", Eventide. I believe God calls us to the fullness of the truth, not to "just do what is barely necessary". Those in love do not do just "what is necessary". They go all the way, as far as it takes them. And we know that God has gone the "distance" for us. He desires that we, too, share that mindset and receive Him completely, as at the Eucharist. Will one be saved without ever receiving the physical Eucharist? Perhaps, but why look at it from that point of view? Why look at the bare minimum to enter the Kingdom? Joyfully receive what He offers.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

So I do not understand why you say it is "silly". Searching for truth is not "silly", Eventide.

I didn't say that searching for the truth was silly.. I said that claiming to be the one true church is silly in light of the fact that there are multitudes in Christ (baptized into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit of God) who have absolutely no connection with the Roman Catholic church and are just as essential to that one body as anyone in your assembly.

I believe God calls us to the fullness of the truth, not to "just do what is barely necessary". Those in love do not do just "what is necessary". They go all the way, as far as it takes them. And we know that God has gone the "distance" for us. He desires that we, too, share that mindset and receive Him completely, as at the Eucharist. Will one be saved without ever receiving the physical Eucharist? Perhaps, but why look at it from that point of view? Why look at the bare minimum to enter the Kingdom? Joyfully receive what He offers.

Regards

I feast on the spiritual and life giving word of God all the time... it's how we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Him.. we don't physically eat Christ with our flesh, for our flesh profits nothing.. His words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

 

[Eventide]

Francis, here's a simple question for you..

Why would God feed your flesh physically with Christ if your flesh is condemned.. ?

 

[Drew]

Francis, here's a simple question for you..

Why would God feed your flesh physically with Christ if your flesh is condemned.. ?

While I am not sure how this came up, I would like to comment on it.

It appears that you are misunderstanding how Paul (and other NT writers perhaps) use the term "flesh". The term "flesh" is not, repeat not, generally used to refer to "physicality" - it is instead uses to denote the "fallen" state of humankind. Likewise, when Paul uses the word "spirit", he is often not referring to something that is, of definitional necessity, "non-physical".

This is, I suggest, a huge mix-up that I, too, was caught up in the past. Paul does not see "physicality" as the problem, or as in any sense, incompatible with, or disconnected from, the "spiritual".

This confusion has led to a lot of ideas that really do not pass Biblical muster.

Note that I am not specifically commenting on the nature of the Eucharist (in case you were wondering).

 

[Eventide]

While I am not sure how this came up, I would like to comment on it.

It appears that you are misunderstanding how Paul (and other NT writers perhaps) use the term "flesh". The term "flesh" is not, repeat not, generally used to refer to "physicality" - it is instead uses to denote the "fallen" state of humankind. Likewise, when Paul uses the word "spirit", he is often not referring to something that is, of definitional necessity, "non-physical".

This is, I suggest, a huge mix-up that I, too, was caught up in the past. Paul does not see "physicality" as the problem, or as in any sense, incompatible with, or disconnected from, the "spiritual".

This confusion has led to a lot of ideas that really do not pass Biblical muster.

Note that I am not specifically commenting on the nature of the Eucharist (in case you were wondering).

Are you suggesting that the flesh is not condemned in all of us.. ?

If so, then I would ask why every last one of us will eventually physically die..

How is that NOT physical ?

 

[Drew]

Are you suggesting that the flesh is not condemned in all of us.. ?

If so, then I would ask why every last one of us will eventually physically die..

How is that NOT physical ?

I am indeed suggesting that there is no sense in which our "physicality" is condemned any more than any other "aspect" of us.

We all die, of course. But that does not mean that Paul cannot use the term "flesh" to denote the "fallen human person" in general, and not be suggesting that our "physicality" is any more fallen than any other aspect of the human person.

 

[Elijah674]

I didn't say that searching for the truth was silly.. I said that claiming to be the one true church is silly in light of the fact that there are multitudes in Christ (baptized into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit of God) who have absolutely no connection with the Roman Catholic church and are just as essential to that one body as anyone in your assembly.



I feast on the spiritual and life giving word of God all the time... it's how we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Him.. we don't physically eat Christ with our flesh, for our flesh profits nothing.. His words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

rome has not been nor ever will be a Virgin candlestick church to begin with! she is the 'mother whore' antichrist impostor Rev. 17:1-5

In Rev. 12 we see the two clear Identifying Truth's of only the Lord's [ONE] Eph. 4:5 Virgin Fold.

[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, (who satan has used & is about all set to do again! USA Supreme court) and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, [which keep the commandments of God], and [have the testimony of Jesus Christ].

And: God's Sovereignty And the Church will never violate this Inspired Truth!

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

I am indeed suggesting that there is no sense in which our "physicality" is condemned any more than any other "aspect" of us.

Then WHY do you believe that all in Adam are dying..?

We all die, of course. But that does not mean that Paul cannot use the term "flesh" to denote the "fallen human person" in general, and not be suggesting that our "physicality" is any more fallen than any other aspect of the human person.

I would agree.. Isaiah speaks of the entire being is corrupted.. and that's why Paul tells us to put off this old man who is born naturally according to the flesh..

What do you think that "The flesh profits nothing" means..

 

[francisdesales]

rome has not been nor ever will be a Virgin candlestick church to begin with! she is the 'mother whore' antichrist impostor Rev. 17:1-5

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Roman Church is the "mother whore" antichrist imposter! That's utter stupidity, since Paul recognizes this Church's faith and obedience in God's Word, that Roman faith and obedience surpasses any other Church OF THE WORLD...

Your feeble imagination is being misled by Satan, creeping into your reading.


As to the rest, they are blind guesses, common among heretics being misled by Satan looking for ways of trying to guess the end-times scenarios, when Christ clearly says NO ONE knows the end - and we are to "ready always".

If one is ready always, there is no point in reading such "the sky is falling" scenarios into the apocalyptic literature.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, here's a simple question for you..

Why would God feed your flesh physically with Christ if your flesh is condemned.. ?

My flesh is not condemned, nor is yours.

It is the fleshy WAYS that are condemned.

Otherwise, what is the point of the bodily resurrection???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I didn't say that searching for the truth was silly.. I said that claiming to be the one true church is silly in light of the fact that there are multitudes in Christ (baptized into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit of God) who have absolutely no connection with the Roman Catholic church and are just as essential to that one body as anyone in your assembly.

There are a multitude of opinions on a number of subjects, Eventide...

Your logic tells me it is silly to find the truth on any particular subject, because there are a multitude of possibilities. Thus, scientists are silly when attempting to discover the cause and effect of a variety of phenomenum, engineers are silly to test cars, since there is not a "better way", and there is no right or wrong answer in any political arena - everyone should just cave in and do whatever "feels good" in their personal opinions.

The issue is not who or what is "essential". The fact that you continue to look at this subject in terms of "what is barely necessary" or "what is essential" points to your improper focus on salvation as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. It doesn't matter how one is saved, that's all that matters, in this opinion.

Our relationship with God does not consider salvation as primary. We don't view things through what is "essential" or what is "necessary" to "get out of jail". That minimalistic view towards our relationship with God cannot possibly point to what we truly seek - a relationship of total sharing with God, union with Him Who created us and keeps us close to Him.

The lover will seek out the beloved - not in minimalistic ways, but in any and ALL ways that brings him closer to the Beloved. Were you ever in love? Did you just do the barest of necessities? Thus, we seek out God and union with Him in as many ways as possible. You reject some of the most profound means of this union, being satisfied with "what I have is enough, all that is necessary, the bare essentials".

Is there some presumption in that way of thinking? Has the Bible stated "such and such is the barest necessities"? Or is salvation a way of life? Faith walking in love? Is yours the attitude of a true seeker of God? When a more perfect way becomes available, doesn't the true seeker reach out in that direction, even if previously unplanned or unanticipated - perhaps even unwanted?

Don't you think that the Apostles were quite happy as Jews before Jesus came? But unanticipated circumstances came up! Jesus! He did not come to "bring peace". What do you think that means - that "I did not come to bring peace"?

I feast on the spiritual and life giving word of God all the time... it's how we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Him.. we don't physically eat Christ with our flesh, for our flesh profits nothing.. His words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

You misunderstand John 6, for if the flesh profits for nothing, there is no point in the Crucifixion or even the Incarnation... You claim to "feast on the spiritual", but appear unaware of even the basics of the human person, who consists of both body and spirit - and Jesus took on that ENTIRE nature of man, minus sin. Nor does it seem that you are even aware of why God became man! And THIS is a "spiritual feast"????

What sort of feast is involved if one rejects the main course? Sure, eating a pound of string beans will get you full, but is that what is being offered at feasts??? Is that the POINT?

Regards

 

[Eventide]

My flesh is not condemned, nor is yours.

Then why is this body of death 'as Paul calls it' dying.. isn't this the sentence passed down by the Lord upon Adam in the day that he ate of the tree ? That ye shall surely die..?

It is the fleshy WAYS that are condemned.

Then again, why is THIS body dying..?

Otherwise, what is the point of the bodily resurrection???

Regards

Because He is going to change this vile and corrupt body for a glorious body like HIS.. in the blink of an eye..

 

[francisdesales]

Then why is this body of death 'as Paul calls it' dying.. isn't this the sentence passed down by the Lord upon Adam in the day that he ate of the tree ? That ye shall surely die..?

Did not Christ rise from the dead bodily?

Then again, why is THIS body dying..?

The wages of sin is death. But death is not the end for us. Christ has promised a resurrection of the body, not just a spiritual resurrection.

Because He is going to change this vile and corrupt body for a glorious body like HIS.. in the blink of an eye..

The reason is because the flesh is corruptible (rots), not because it is evil. God did not create evil flesh. It is what is inside that makes us evil, as Jesus said.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Did not Christ rise from the dead bodily?

Yes He has..

What does that have to do with OUR FLESH eventually dying..? Are you suggesting that because Christ rose from the dead that we're NOT going to die ?

The wages of sin is death. But death is not the end for us. Christ has promised a resurrection of the body, not just a spiritual resurrection.

I haven't said that death is the end for us or that there's only a spiritual resurrection.. sounds like you're getting desparate here and putting words into my mouth.. and what does that have to do with the fact that we're going to die ?

The reason is because the flesh is corruptible (rots), not because it is evil. God did not create evil flesh. It is what is inside that makes us evil, as Jesus said.

Regards

So it just rots away for no reason ? ?

I mean come on guys... this is like the first pages of the bible.. and people don't even believe it.

 

[Eventide]

The reason is because the flesh is corruptible (rots), not because it is evil.

So you're physically and literally eating Christ's flesh and yet your flesh is rotting..?

Doesn't sound like there's much profit there..

 

[francisdesales]

So you're physically and literally eating Christ's flesh and yet your flesh is rotting..?

Doesn't sound like there's much profit there..

Yes and no to your questions.

The profit is at the spiritual level, for the flesh of Christ does not fulfill the needs of the stomach. And yet, Jesus gives us His entire self.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

What does that have to do with OUR FLESH eventually dying..? Are you suggesting that because Christ rose from the dead that we're NOT going to die ?

We have been promised a bodily resurrection, just as Christ resurrected. He is the protype of what we will become. Yes, we will die, but our bodies will be resurrected. Just as Jesus' body was resurrected.

I haven't said that death is the end for us or that there's only a spiritual resurrection.. sounds like you're getting desparate here and putting words into my mouth.. and what does that have to do with the fact that we're going to die ?

Desperate?

Why would I get desperate when talking to you?

It sounded like you doubted that our bodies would rise and that the flesh is of no value, no consequence. However, God's plan clearly promises that we will be united with flesh, albeit incorruptible flesh. Thus, you misinterpret John 6 and your idea that "flesh is of no value".

So it just rots away for no reason ? ?

I mean come on guys... this is like the first pages of the bible.. and people don't even believe it.

I think science explains why flesh that has become lifeless rots away, if you are interested in that. I don't think you need the Bible on that.

Regards