God's Sovereignty And The Church

[dadof10]

The Calvinist view of the sovereignty of God has always seemed inconsistent with their view of the Church.

On the one hand, God creates a man and saves him. Since God is all-powerful and sovereign, there is nothing the man can do to lose that salvation. The man will not fall into apostasy.

On the other hand, God created and sent His Holy Spirit upon His Church. He is all-powerful and sovereign, yet Calvinist's hold the Church fell into apostasy shortly after the last Apostle died (maybe even before that).

It is blatantly obvious from Scripture that God's intent was that His Church would remain faithful until the end of time, like the saved man.

It seems to me there are only two options.

1) God is totally sovereign over all creation, which includes the Church He founded and sent His Spirit to guide. That would mean the Church has always faithfully taught His doctrines, and continues to do so until the end of time. He keeps Her from apostasy, as He does the saved man.

2) God allows His creation free will, which means the Church can fall into apostasy and so can any saved man.

The inconsistency comes from the fact that in the Calvinist view, free will doesn't exist EXCEPT when we are talking about that one institution that the Holy Spirit guides. Unless someone can make the case that God INTENDED for His Church to apostatize, then the Calvinist view of sovereignty of God is inconsistent.

God sent His Spirit upon His Church "the pillar and foundation of truth" and expected Her to teach "all Truth" until the end of time. If God is indeed sovereign (in the Calvinist sense) this Church could NEVER have apostatized and is still teaching this Truth.

Thoughts?

 

[Hitch]

Which of Calvin's titles have you personally read?

 

[dadof10]

Which of Calvin's titles have you personally read?

Not one. Why?

 

[dadof10]

Bump. Hoping for some input.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[savedbygrace57]

dad:

The Calvinist view of the sovereignty of God has always seemed inconsistent with their view of the Church.

On the one hand, God creates a man and saves him. Since God is all-powerful and sovereign, there is nothing the man can do to lose that salvation. The man will not fall into apostasy.

Thats True, thats why Jesus said of His Church Matt 16:

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

When one apostatizes, thats a work of the devil prevailing against that person..

1 tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith [apostacize], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That means the gates of hell did prevail against them..

These doctrines of devils of which the depart unto are from the gates of hell..

So those who depart from the Faith of Christ, only show they were never part of the church that Christ was building, unless His word of promise is made of none effect..

 

[dadof10]

dad:



Thats True, thats why Jesus said of His Church Matt 16:

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

When one apostatizes, thats a work of the devil prevailing against that person..

1 tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith [apostacize], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That means the gates of hell did prevail against them..

These doctrines of devils of which the depart unto are from the gates of hell..

So those who depart from the Faith of Christ, only show they were never part of the church that Christ was building, unless His word of promise is made of none effect..

SBG, you make a good case AGAINST the Calvinist doctrine of Sovereignty. The standard Protestant line of "if a person apostasizes he was never saved" doesn't hold water when speaking of the Church. Its blatantly obvious from Scripture that the Holy Spirit was sent upon the Church as He is upon a TRUE BELIEVER. If the Holy Spirit can be thwarted by MAN'S free will in the case of the Church, why can't He be thwarted in the individual who is GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT? Either the Church never apostasized or its possible for a saved, Holy Spirit guided person to aposticize. Which is it?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[francisdesales]

dad:

Thats True, thats why Jesus said of His Church Matt 16:

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

When one apostatizes, thats a work of the devil prevailing against that person..

1 tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith [apostacize], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That means the gates of hell did prevail against them..

These doctrines of devils of which the depart unto are from the gates of hell..

So those who depart from the Faith of Christ, only show they were never part of the church that Christ was building, unless His word of promise is made of none effect..

You are confusing the Church as a Body with an individual believer. If an individual departs from the faith, that doesn't mean that Mat 16 is null and void. Jesus doesn't say every single individual of the Church will prevail against the gates of hell, only the Church as an organization. The parable of the wheat and the weeds makes this perfectly clear.

Individuals within the Church can fall away and be lost.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

Individuals within the Church can fall away and be lost.

Not if they are of the church which Christ is the head of, the one He builds..

eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

His Church has individual members 1 cor 12:

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.


So you are confused..

 

[francisdesales]

Not if they are of the church which Christ is the head of, the one He builds..

eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

His Church has individual members 1 cor 12:

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.


So you are confused..

Where exactly do either of these citations tell us that individuals of the Church cannot fall away? Nowhere. As usual, you have a problem reading what is simply in the Scriptures and inserting your own twist.

Again, re-read the parable of the weed and the wheat. Carefully. Especially Mat 13:41 - "out of HIS KINGDOM"...shall the tares be removed...

Regards

 

[Forgiven83]

In the Parable of the Sower Matthew 13:1-20; Mark 4:3-20; Luke 8:4-15 we are told of four kind of seeds 3 are bad, and one is good. The 1st seed is that that fell by the wayside definitely bad, the second that that fell on stony ground also bad.
The 3rd and 4th kind is were all this confusion of a true believers losing they salvation comes from the 3rd kind falls on thorns (Luke 8:7,14) these bring no fruit to perfection (Hebrews 6:1,7-8) and also are bad, these are false prophets/believers spoken of also in II Peter 2.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

But the fourth seed is that which fell upon good ground. These are though who hearts are truely open to the gospel and bears fruit (Luke 8:8,15) the writer of Hebrews speaks of these in Hebrews 6:1,9. The true Christian who can never lost their salvation (I John 2:19), is this kind of seed.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The parable of the tares speak of false believer being mixed with the true believers.


Dadof10 yes I believe God's Church has been around since the Apostles, but I don't think we are thinking of the same Church. For I am sure you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church, which along with some Protestant Churches seems to have practise presecuting the True Church (Revelation 13:10).

 

[savedbygrace57]

frans:

Where exactly do either of these citations tell us that individuals of the Church cannot fall away?

You mean where does it say they can ? Its even absurd to think that a member of Christ body can fall away from its Head, Christ. If it does its the Heads loss and responsibility..

 

[francisdesales]

In the Parable of the Sower Matthew 13:1-20; Mark 4:3-20; Luke 8:4-15 we are told of four kind of seeds 3 are bad, and one is good. The 1st seed is that that fell by the wayside definitely bad, the second that that fell on stony ground also bad.
The 3rd and 4th kind is were all this confusion of a true believers losing they salvation comes from the 3rd kind falls on thorns (Luke 8:7,14) these bring no fruit to perfection (Hebrews 6:1,7-8) and also are bad, these are false prophets/believers spoken of also in II Peter 2.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

But the fourth seed is that which fell upon good ground. These are though who hearts are truely open to the gospel and bears fruit (Luke 8:8,15) the writer of Hebrews speaks of these in Hebrews 6:1,9. The true Christian who can never lost their salvation (I John 2:19), is this kind of seed.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The parable of the tares speak of false believer being mixed with the true believers.

Yes, and the point of the false believers being called "tares" is because tares and wheat look identical. That is why we don't pull them up. We don't know who is a tare, until the end. Maybe someone is like the prodigal son, spending his money on "prostitutes", and has not yet decided (but will) return to the Father. Thus, WE do not judge who is a "false believer". We might be pulling up wheat with our rush to judgment.

The point is, of course, that there will be judged those who are false. Not everyone of the Church will be considered true believers, at the final judgment. Thus, many will say "Lord, Lord...", as in Mat 7:21.

Fear of the Lord is truly the first stage of wisdom. Presumption is folly.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

frans:



You mean where does it say they can ? Its even absurd to think that a member of Christ body can fall away from its Head, Christ. If it does its the Heads loss and responsibility..

YOU are the one using those citations to prove your point. It is YOUR responsibility to point out the evidence.

REgards

 

[savedbygrace57]

YOU are the one using those citations to prove your point. It is YOUR responsibility to point out the evidence.

REgards

I have pointed it out, but I have no power to cause you to see it..

 

[dadof10]

In the Parable of the Sower Matthew 13:1-20; Mark 4:3-20; Luke 8:4-15 we are told of four kind of seeds 3 are bad, and one is good. The 1st seed is that that fell by the wayside definitely bad, the second that that fell on stony ground also bad.
The 3rd and 4th kind is were all this confusion of a true believers losing they salvation comes from the 3rd kind falls on thorns (Luke 8:7,14) these bring no fruit to perfection (Hebrews 6:1,7-8) and also are bad, these are false prophets/believers spoken of also in II Peter 2.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

But the fourth seed is that which fell upon good ground. These are though who hearts are truely open to the gospel and bears fruit (Luke 8:8,15) the writer of Hebrews speaks of these in Hebrews 6:1,9. The true Christian who can never lost their salvation (I John 2:19), is this kind of seed.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The parable of the tares speak of false believer being mixed with the true believers.


Dadof10 yes I believe God's Church has been around since the Apostles, but I don't think we are thinking of the same Church. For I am sure you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church, which along with some Protestant Churches seems to have practise presecuting the True Church (Revelation 13:10).

I'm sure you hold the "church " is the invisible community of true believers? Can you please give me a verse that describes the church as invisible?


Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[francisdesales]

I have pointed it out, but I have no power to cause you to see it..

I'm afraid this is your typical tactic in my experience with you. You post a verse that says nothing about your claim, and then whine that I am supposed to prove that the verse states the opposite! Sophistry, that's what it is.

Your citation simply says nothing about whether an individual of the Church can be lost. NOTHING. It talks about the Church being members and that the Church, as a Body, cannot fail. It doesn't mention anything about individual members falling away. Or not being able to fall away.

Quite simply, it says nothing about your claim. In either direction. It doesn't speak about whether it is impossible to fall away or not. Thus, refering to the verse in the first place is a mistake on your part. Unfortunately, you continue the charade by trying to get me to prove my point from your same verse that doesn't mention whether someone can fall away or not. A childish ploy that you constantly use here.

Other verses will definitively tell us that people can fall away. I have given you one from Jesus Christ Himself. If that is not enough for you, than you are truly in need of examining whether you HAVE a relationship with Jesus, or whether you are merely worshiping your OWN view of God.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

I'm afraid this is your typical tactic in my experience with you. You post a verse that says nothing about your claim, and then whine that I am supposed to prove that the verse states the opposite! Sophistry, that's what it is.

Your citation simply says nothing about whether an individual of the Church can be lost. NOTHING. It talks about the Church being members and that the Church, as a Body, cannot fail. It doesn't mention anything about individual members falling away. Or not being able to fall away.

Quite simply, it says nothing about your claim. In either direction. It doesn't speak about whether it is impossible to fall away or not. Thus, refering to the verse in the first place is a mistake on your part. Unfortunately, you continue the charade by trying to get me to prove my point from your same verse that doesn't mention whether someone can fall away or not. A childish ploy that you constantly use here.

Other verses will definitively tell us that people can fall away. I have given you one from Jesus Christ Himself. If that is not enough for you, than you are truly in need of examining whether you HAVE a relationship with Jesus, or whether you are merely worshiping your OWN view of God.

Regards

Bottom/line kid'O is that rome was never a true church in the first place! And she visably stinks 'today' of hell's high waters of almost daily print & in satan's false doctrinal stuff! Rev. 17:1-5.

And falling away did happen with both COMPLETE Virgin Folds of old Israel (Matt. 23:38) & Laodicea! (Rev. 3:16) And their Rev. 2:5 Candlestick was REMOVED.
And again, rome never had in candelstick in its startup even! Paul said that the iniquity had already began in his day, and that is no mystery to any Born Again ones of today. What Born Again Christian could be a Rev. 18:4 PARTAKER of that stuff & support it with Gods money? None!! And God says that HE WILL NOT EVEN BE WITH the Virgin Fold of old Israel when the lid remain on the stinky garbage can!! See Joshua 7:12 last part of the verse Forum. Then tell yourself that God can be it rome!

Are there still some ignorant but save [individuals] there? That is not the question. See John 10:16 for Christ Words of His day. The question is, why MUST CHRIST CALL THEM OUT if He were there? So, who was their 'leader'? Rev. 3:9 answers that question! And they became satan's killing machine! They even needed Caesar to execute Christ... CHURCH & STATE for a powerless Christ/less FAKE!

And because of ONLY this ONE (ONE) SIN of theft, [[[ALL ISRAEL WERE GUILTY]]] and 36 men DIED! And God said, NEVER WILL I BE WITH YOU AGAIN unless you CLEAN UP YOUR ACT! (Bottom/line) (And that ain't rome fella!)

And the post referal one? Don't you fret none about him, (her? whoever?) for God will gather His own together in the Remnant Church from fallen Laodica, (and whoever else will Obey God in Rev. 18:4) the sixth CHURCH will become the last Fold, as they are able now to bear it. Rev. 3:10. ;) The exact same as Old Isreal in Acts.

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

I'm afraid this is your typical tactic in my experience with you. You post a verse that says nothing about your claim,

I cannot help it if you cannot see it..

 

[dadof10]

Bottom/line kid'O is that rome was never a true church in the first place! And she visably stinks 'today' of hell's high waters of almost daily print & in satan's false doctrinal stuff! Rev. 17:1-5.

And falling away did happen with both COMPLETE Virgin Folds of old Israel (Matt. 23:38) & Laodicea! (Rev. 3:16) And their Rev. 2:5 Candlestick was REMOVED.
And again, rome never had in candelstick in its startup even! Paul said that the iniquity had already began in his day, and that is no mystery to any Born Again ones of today. What Born Again Christian could be a Rev. 18:4 PARTAKER of that stuff & support it with Gods money? None!! And God says that HE WILL NOT EVEN BE WITH the Virgin Fold of old Israel when the lid remain on the stinky garbage can!! See Joshua 7:12 last part of the verse Forum. Then tell yourself that God can be it rome!

Are there still some ignorant but save [individuals] there? That is not the question. See John 10:16 for Christ Words of His day. The question is, why MUST CHRIST CALL THEM OUT if He were there? So, who was their 'leader'? Rev. 3:9 answers that question! And they became satan's killing machine! They even needed Caesar to execute Christ... CHURCH & STATE for a powerless Christ/less FAKE!

And because of ONLY this ONE (ONE) SIN of theft, [[[ALL ISRAEL WERE GUILTY]]] and 36 men DIED! And God said, NEVER WILL I BE WITH YOU AGAIN unless you CLEAN UP YOUR ACT! (Bottom/line) (And that ain't rome fella!)

And the post referal one? Don't you fret none about him, (her? whoever?) for God will gather His own together in the Remnant Church from fallen Laodica, (and whoever else will Obey God in Rev. 18:4) the sixth CHURCH will become the last Fold, as they are able now to bear it. Rev. 3:10. ;) The exact same as Old Isreal in Acts.

--Elijah

Instead of this ridiculous rant, try posting Scripture that proves the silly theory of invisible church. SBG can't do it, maybe you'll have better luck.

Just do what you always do, post a verse with the word "church" in it, change the color of every other word, make foolish claims gleaned from Jack chick tracts, and say "see" at the end.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[bleitzel]

@dadof10 and @francisdesales : I got to the point where I realized it wasn't their fault that had to be corrected, it was mine for responding to them.