God's Sovereignty And The Church

[francisdesales]

fran:



I cannot help it if you cannot see it..

Well, of course, no one can, including yourself, since those verses don't speak of it...

 

[francisdesales]

Bottom/line kid'O is that rome was never a true church in the first place!

The bottom line, kid'O, is that it appears you haven't heard of this book called "Romans" in the New Testament. Maybe you've only seen some "end of the world" tracts that you endlessly quote.

Anyways, if you are interested in the BIBLE, Paul writes to one of the churches AT ROME:

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom 1:7-8

Interesting, Paul doesn't say this about any other community of believers - their faith is spoken of throughout the world. Hmm... WOW!!!

But yet, according to you, there never was such a community of believers in Christ so highly lauded by Paul...

Or maybe you could read the last chapter of Romans, it's called "Romans 16". Paul mentions a number of people by name living in Rome. Has some interesting things to say about them. Being in the Lord. You know. Part of the Church...

He also says this:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen. Romans 16:17-20

What a wonderful statement made to such a sublime church. Their obedience and faith is spoken of throughout the world!!! Who else has been mentioned with such admiration in all of Scriptures??? And how Paul so gets it right by describing you, a man only "serving his own belly...and with fair words (well, maybe not, who can understand half of what you say) deceiving the hearts of the simple"

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under YOUR (Roman) feet shortly... Ever read Revelations 12 and who it is that crushes Satan???

So after one reads your first sentence, there is no need to go further. It's just more confusing bluster of a man who only is aware of bits and pieces of Revelation, a man trying to fool the simple with doctrines contrary to what has already been taught...

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

Well, of course, no one can, including yourself, since those verses don't speak of it...

Thats because you cant see it.

 

[francisdesales]

Thats because you cant see it.

No one can...

 

[savedbygrace57]

No one can...

Thats not my problem..

 

[francisdesales]

Thats not my problem..

Of course it is - you brought it up. If you can't prove your point, perhaps next time, you should refrain from making comments...

 

[Elijah674]

The bottom line, kid'O, is that it appears you haven't heard of this book called "Romans" in the New Testament. Maybe you've only seen some "end of the world" tracts that you endlessly quote.

Anyways, if you are interested in the BIBLE, Paul writes to one of the churches AT ROME:

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom 1:7-8

Interesting, Paul doesn't say this about any other community of believers - their faith is spoken of throughout the world. Hmm... WOW!!!

But yet, according to you, there never was such a community of believers in Christ so highly lauded by Paul...

Or maybe you could read the last chapter of Romans, it's called "Romans 16". Paul mentions a number of people by name living in Rome. Has some interesting things to say about them. Being in the Lord. You know. Part of the Church...

He also says this:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen. Romans 16:17-20

What a wonderful statement made to such a sublime church. Their obedience and faith is spoken of throughout the world!!! Who else has been mentioned with such admiration in all of Scriptures??? And how Paul so gets it right by describing you, a man only "serving his own belly...and with fair words (well, maybe not, who can understand half of what you say) deceiving the hearts of the simple"

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under YOUR (Roman) feet shortly... Ever read Revelations 12 and who it is that crushes Satan???

So after one reads your first sentence, there is no need to go further. It's just more confusing bluster of a man who only is aware of bits and pieces of Revelation, a man trying to fool the simple with doctrines contrary to what has already been taught...

Regards

Good grief guy, do you 'actually' think (and I use that term loosely) that a church in rome makes that one church catholic?? If so, you have a bigger problen with your postings than that of the Rev. 3:9 ex/virgin one of the 'seven'!

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

Good grief guy, do you 'actually' think (and I use that term loosely) that a church in rome makes that one church catholic?? If so, you have a bigger problen with your postings than that of the Rev. 3:9 ex/virgin one of the 'seven'!

--Elijah

Any verse proving the heretical doctrine of invisible church will do. Still waiting....

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[francisdesales]

Good grief guy, do you 'actually' think (and I use that term loosely) that a church in rome makes that one church catholic?? If so, you have a bigger problen with your postings than that of the Rev. 3:9 ex/virgin one of the 'seven'!

--Elijah

Good grief, do you even read your own posts?

You are the one who said there was no true church in Rome. Does your latest post address that??? Nope. You pretend you didn't even make that tremendous gaffe. 2

Here, let me refresh your memory, with bright colors and all...

"Bottom/line kid'O is that rome was never a true church in the first place! And she visably stinks 'today' of hell's high waters of almost daily print & in satan's false doctrinal stuff! Rev. 17:1-5. "

My post clearly shows you are clueless or biblically illiterate. - Rome was indeed the cite of a true Church in Christ. Paul didn't make it a habit to write to false churches.

As to the universal church, it seems quite obvious that a universal Messiah would form a universal church. History makes it obvious where that universal church was centered...

Paul says their faith was spoken of universally, their obedience to Christ was a model universally...

Hmm...

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

(Post 22)

Regards

Point to Francis. :yes

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Building of Christ Church, Now that His redeeming death has been completed, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to apply the saving benefits to all the individual members of Christ Church for whom He died eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The Church, the called out ones the ekklesia rom :

24Even us, whom he hath called [The Church], not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

acts 2:

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call]The Church].

So the work of the Holy Spirit was an extension of Christ redeeming work throughout the whole Gospel age. He applies the Lords Salvation to His Chosen People the called out ones. 2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He the Spirit is a promised blessing to the seed of Christ, or the seed of Abraham Gal 3:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

All who belongs to the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself for eph 5:25 will receive the Spirit as heirs and Children of Abraham, the Father of all that believe.

This is how Christ builds His Church, the called out ones.

 

[francisdesales]

The Building of Christ Church, Now that His redeeming death has been completed, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to apply the saving benefits to all the individual members of Christ Church for whom He died eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Where does Paul address here whether a person, once called to the church, cannot be lost or leave the church?

The Church, the called out ones the ekklesia rom :

24Even us, whom he hath called [The Church], not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Nothing on whether a person can be lost or not after being called...

acts 2:

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call]The Church].

So the work of the Holy Spirit was an extension of Christ redeeming work throughout the whole Gospel age. He applies the Lords Salvation to His Chosen People the called out ones. 2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who are called and respond are part of the Church, but nothing about whether they can revert back to their "unsaved" former lives of perdition... 2 Peter 2 clearly gives an obvious example of this "return to their former life of sin", making them WORSE off then before being saved. Not a ringing endorsement for your blusterous assumption without any evidence.

He the Spirit is a promised blessing to the seed of Christ, or the seed of Abraham Gal 3:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

All who belongs to the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself for eph 5:25 will receive the Spirit as heirs and Children of Abraham, the Father of all that believe.

This is how Christ builds His Church, the called out ones.

Nothing about your original claim, that those of the Church cannot be lost.

Like I said, you make sweeping statements and provide no evidence to back it up.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

The Building of Christ Church, Now that His redeeming death has been completed, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to apply the saving benefits to all the individual members of Christ Church for whom He died eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The Church, the called out ones the ekklesia rom :

24Even us, whom he hath called [The Church], not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

acts 2:

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call]The Church].

So the work of the Holy Spirit was an extension of Christ redeeming work throughout the whole Gospel age. He applies the Lords Salvation to His Chosen People the called out ones. 2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He the Spirit is a promised blessing to the seed of Christ, or the seed of Abraham Gal 3:



This is how Christ builds His Church, the called out ones.

Called into the Church? I agree, but I don't see ANYWHERE in Scripture where the Church is defined as an invisible group of believers, all interpreting Scripture for themselves, DEFYING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP (the Bishops) and breaking away from each other to start their own faith communities. There are many verses that allude the the FACT that the Church is a visible, cohesive group, all holding the same doctrines and SUBMITTING TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP (Acts 15).

Since men are sinners and HAVE FREE WILL, I can logically see how someone can believe the visible Church that Christ founded could sink into apostasy (the guidance of the Holy Spirit notwithstanding). It didn't happen, but it's at least logically possible. I cannot, however, understand how anyone with even an elementary knowledge of Scripture and history can come to the conclusion that when Jesus talked about "church" he meant an invisible community of believers that defy authority and believe different things. That view is laughable, unless you can prove it.

OP still remains unanswered by Calvinism, you can't have it both ways. Either the Church that Christ founded sunk into apostasy, which means men CAN reject God's Grace, or the visible Church Christ founded is still being guided by the HS and therefore MUST be submitted to.

 

[francisdesales]

Called into the Church? I agree, but I don't see ANYWHERE in Scripture where the Church is defined as an invisible group of believers, all interpreting Scripture for themselves, DEFYING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP (the Bishops) and breaking away from each other to start their own faith communities. There are many verses that allude the the FACT that the Church is a visible, cohesive group, all holding the same doctrines and SUBMITTING TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP (Acts 15).

Agree. One of the things we know for CERTAIN about Jesus is that He established an inner group of followers and gave them authority over the rest of His followers. Now, if one believes Jesus is God - and all authority was given to Him by the Father - it follows that those Whom God gives authority to should be heeded. Breaking away from Church authority to start another is anti-biblical.

The issue is not whether it is "unproven" or "unscriptural", but whether it suits "Adam's" desire to be God or not. The desire to determine right and wrong remains strong in "Adam".

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Agree. One of the things we know for CERTAIN about Jesus is that He established an inner group of followers and gave them authority over the rest of His followers. Now, if one believes Jesus is God - and all authority was given to Him by the Father - it follows that those Whom God gives authority to should be heeded. Breaking away from Church authority to start another is anti-biblical.

The issue is not whether it is "unproven" or "unscriptural", but whether it suits "Adam's" desire to be God or not. The desire to determine right and wrong remains strong in "Adam".

Regards

Yes, satan did quote a Inspired promise from the Lords Word to Christ Himself in the Matt. 4:6 from Psalms 91:11, yet, as your two [posts] do, the required Condition for any promise is Omitted, as Christ quoted the condition for the promise back to satan from Deut. 6:16.

We see that the Word of God NEVER Changes in Eternity! Heb. 13:8 (and forum read the next verse!)

Anyway, rome never was a 'house of God to begin with!' (Rev. 17:1-5)
But Forum, here is the same God of Eternity Giving a ETERNAL CONDITION to His True Virgin Fold in Joshua 7 (note that ALL THE HOUSE were guilty because of this one sin & that 36 men died because of it! Also note Matt. 23:38 & Rev. 3:9 for a whole perverted house that are SPEWED OUT! and have a closed door.. Matt. 25:10)

Joshua 7
[12] Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they [[were accursed]]: neither will I be with you [[any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you]].

And again, this is not rome with her many false 'teachings' of garbage, + her openly documented filth seen daily in print!

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

dad:

Called into the Church? I agree, but I don't see ANYWHERE in Scripture where the Church is defined as an invisible group of believers,

Huh ? You missed the whole point of my post, oh well..

 

[dadof10]

Agree. One of the things we know for CERTAIN about Jesus is that He established an inner group of followers and gave them authority over the rest of His followers. Now, if one believes Jesus is God - and all authority was given to Him by the Father - it follows that those Whom God gives authority to should be heeded. Breaking away from Church authority to start another is anti-biblical.

The issue is not whether it is "unproven" or "unscriptural", but whether it suits "Adam's" desire to be God or not. The desire to determine right and wrong remains strong in "Adam".

Regards

There was a lot of that at the Reformation. They weren't just a bunch of angels looking for the truth. There was pride involved too.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

Yes, satan did quote a Inspired promise from the Lords Word to Christ Himself in the Matt. 4:6 from Psalms 91:11, yet, as your two [posts] do, the required Condition for any promise is Omitted, as Christ quoted the condition for the promise back to satan from Deut. 6:16.

We see that the Word of God NEVER Changes in Eternity! Heb. 13:8 (and forum read the next verse!)

Anyway, rome never was a 'house of God to begin with!' (Rev. 17:1-5)
But Forum, here is the same God of Eternity Giving a ETERNAL CONDITION to His True Virgin Fold in Joshua 7 (note that ALL THE HOUSE were guilty because of this one sin & that 36 men died because of it! Also note Matt. 23:38 & Rev. 3:9 for a whole perverted house that are SPEWED OUT! and have a closed door.. Matt. 25:10)

Joshua 7
[12] Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they [[were accursed]]: neither will I be with you [[any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you]].

And again, this is not rome with her many false 'teachings' of garbage, + her openly documented filth seen daily in print!

--Elijah

What are you talking about? Are you going to address the OP or just spew anti-Catholic rhetoric in Technicolor?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

dad:



Huh ? You missed the whole point of my post, oh well..

I think you missed the entire point of the OP. If the Church is the invisible group of the saved, just prove it from Scripture. If the Church Christ founded apostasized, explain how that happened if Calvin was right about sovereignty and the lack of free will. The above addresses nothing, its simply stringing irrelevant verses together.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Eventide]

I think you missed the entire point of the OP. If the Church is the invisible group of the saved, just prove it from Scripture..

There's a simpler way.. why don't you tell us who is actually in Christ and who isn't.. Can you tell us by looking at them..

How's that..?