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God's Sovereignty And The Church

Elijah674 said:
Yes, satan did quote a Inspired promise from the Lords Word to Christ Himself in the Matt. 4:6 from Psalms 91:11,
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Which insinuates that even you can incorrectly cite Scriptures for your own deviant purposes...

Elijah674 said:
yet, as your two [posts] do, the required Condition for any promise is Omitted, as Christ quoted the condition for the promise back to satan from Deut. 6:16.
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How am I tempting the Lord by my posts??? I am not making any sort of presumptions that the Lord must do anything unconditionally...


What does this have anything to do with what we are talking about? Elijah, to be better understood, you'll have to explain your citations, rather than just posting a series of Bible verses without any explanation. As usual, your ambiguous ramblings are not clear to us here.

Elijah674 said:
We see that the Word of God NEVER Changes in Eternity! Heb. 13:8 (and forum read the next verse!)
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Refering to Jesus Christ, not the Bible. Anyone who has actually read the Bible's various translations can tell you words and meanings are changed or muted from the original.

Elijah674 said:
Anyway, rome never was a 'house of God to begin with!' (Rev. 17:1-5)
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This is called "stubborn obstinance" in the face of friendly correction. Who exactly is Paul writing to in the "letter to the Romans", kido? Is he writing to the Legions? Perhaps Nero himself??? This is a nice example of a person who cannot admit they are wrong... :screwloose

Clearly, you are confused between the Church located AT ROME and the secular society located at Rome, being the center of the "world". It is not difficult to surmise that since the Roman Empire covered the "known world", reference to the ways of the world could be spoken of in reference to Rome, the "center of the world". Obviously not refering to the Church at Rome, since Paul states they are following the ways of God. One would have to state that the Bible is disagreeing with itself, otherwise.

It is clear that there is a contast between the Church at Rome and the ways of the world centered at the capital of the world, Rome. In addition, there is further reference to Emperor worship, common during the time John wrote Revelation. Another contrast between WHO is worshipped by the Roman Church vs those not of the Church worshiping the Emperor...

Elijah674 said:
But Forum, here is the same God of Eternity Giving a ETERNAL CONDITION to His True Virgin Fold in Joshua 7 (note that ALL THE HOUSE were guilty because of this one sin & that 36 men died because of it! Also note Matt. 23:38 & Rev. 3:9 for a whole perverted house that are SPEWED OUT! and have a closed door.. Matt. 25:10)
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This is simply babble that can just as easily be refering to you personally. YOU are the one making the senseless connection, not the Bible. Joshua is not refering to the Catholic Church, except in the furtile minds of people who are unfamiliar with the Bible beyond a few proof texts.

Elijah674 said:
And again, this is not rome with her many false 'teachings' of garbage, + her openly documented filth seen daily in print!

--Elijah
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I have already cited two separate occasions where Paul says the opposite in Sacred Scriptures. The Church AT ROME was highly regarded for their maintenance of the true faith and their obedience.

Feel free to disagree with God, but don't be a hypocrite, please. A simple reading of the Bible will point out your error.

Regards
 
Eventide said:
There's a simpler way.. why don't you tell us who is actually in Christ and who isn't.. Can you tell us by looking at them..

How's that..?
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That's the point of the parable of the tares and the wheat. But there is a difference between identifying the Church and identifying who will enter into heaven after they die...

We do know that Jesus formed a visible inner circle and gave them a Godly authority. This is a visible community, one that can be readily identifed. The Romans during their persecutions of Christians were able to identify "the Church".

Regards
 
Eventide said:
There's a simpler way.. why don't you tell us who is actually in Christ and who isn't.. Can you tell us by looking at them..

How's that..?
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That's not a "simpler way" to answer the OP. There are plenty of threads that deal with the issue of who are and are not "in Christ", this isn't one of them. I'm asking a specific question. Can you answer it or at least prove the Church is the invisible community of believers? Don't just keep asking me to disprove your contention. Show me verses that prove it. Can you?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.
 
The church of God..

dadof10 said:
That's not a "simpler way" to answer the OP. There are plenty of threads that deal with the issue of who are and are not "in Christ", this isn't one of them.
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The biblical definition of the church of God is the flesh and bone body of believers from every nation, tribe, and tongue who actually have CHRIST IN THEM.. in their earthen vessels. So it's impossible to separate that aspect of the church from itself.. because that is the biblical definition of the church of God.

Now if you'd like to show where that isn't the case biblically and would like to share what YOUR definition of the church of God 'actually' is.. then go right ahead.

I'm asking a specific question. Can you answer it or at least prove the Church is the invisible community of believers? Don't just keep asking me to disprove your contention. Show me verses that prove it. Can you?
Click to expand...

If you understand the biblical definition of the church of God, then you would understand that it's impossible to confine this 'living body' to let's say... the Catholic church.. because it would be senseless to say or believe that only those flesh and bone individuals are members of HIS BODY.
 
Re: The church of God..

Eventide said:
If you understand the biblical definition of the church of God, then you would understand that it's impossible to confine this 'living body' to let's say... the Catholic church.. because it would be senseless to say or believe that only those flesh and bone individuals are members of HIS BODY.
Click to expand...

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that "God's Church is confined to a particular body". Lumen Gentium (Vatican 2 document) clearly recognizes that other Christian communities partake in some aspects of Christian cult and practice. However, all the elements of Christ's Church subsist within the Catholic Church. That is why we say it is the fullness of the faith. There is nothing lacking regarding the elements of salvation or the teachings of the faith.

With that said, however, it is historically accurate to say that the Church does contain a visible element and is not "confined to the invisible", which is Dad's point, I believe. Just as Christ was visible (and invisible), so too is His Body, the Church...

Regards
 
Re: The church of God..

francisdesales said:
With that said, however, it is historically accurate to say that the Church does contain a visible element and is not "confined to the invisible", which is Dad's point, I believe. Just as Christ was visible (and invisible), so too is His Body, the Church...

Regards
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What exactly is it that you say is visible if the church of God consists of flesh and bone believers with the Spirit of Christ living in them.. ? ?

Are you referring to the multi billion dollar buildings which the Catholic church has all over the world.. is that what you mean by being visible.. ?
 
Eventide said:
The biblical definition of the church of God is the flesh and bone body of believers from every nation, tribe, and tongue who actually have CHRIST IN THEM.. in their earthen vessels. So it's impossible to separate that aspect of the church from itself.. because that is the biblical definition of the church of God.
Click to expand...

This is one aspect of "church" but this definition leaves a lot to be desired. Its like saying the Church consists of people who love Christ. That's true enough, but what about doctrine? Which ones are essential? What about leadership?

Now if you'd like to show where that isn't the case biblically and would like to share what YOUR definition of the church of God 'actually' is.. then go right ahead.

If you understand the biblical definition of the church of God, then you would understand that it's impossible to confine this 'living body' to let's say... the Catholic church.. because it would be senseless to say or believe that only those flesh and bone individuals are members of HIS BODY.
Click to expand...

It is not my intention to either prove or disprove the validity of Catholic claims here. The OP is specifically about how Calvinists can claim the early Church apostasized presumably due to the free will of their members, yet still hold that man has no free will.



Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.
 
dadof10 said:
This is one aspect of "church" but this definition leaves a lot to be desired.
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So what the scriptures say concerning the church of God leaves a lot to be desired..?

Its like saying the Church consists of people who love Christ. That's true enough, but what about doctrine? Which ones are essential? What about leadership?
Click to expand...

What about doctrine..? Do we need to know all there is to know about doctrine to become a member of the body of Christ..? How about the Catholic church... they're AMILLENNIAL... so are you suggesting that everyone in the church needs to believe in amillennial doctrine because your church does ?
 
Christ will build His Church !

The Sovereign Christ Sovereignly Builds His Church Matt 16:

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He has all power both in Heaven and Earth, so He will build His Church. Matt 28:


18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Thats the whole and sole premise of evangelizing given to the apostles, His Power in building His Church..
 
Re: The church of God..

Eventide said:
What exactly is it that you say is visible if the church of God consists of flesh and bone believers with the Spirit of Christ living in them.. ? ?

Are you referring to the multi billion dollar buildings which the Catholic church has all over the world.. is that what you mean by being visible.. ?
Click to expand...

No, I am not referring directly to the buildings...

However, your definition of Church does not encompass ALL the ways Scriptures defines it. Church INCLUDES the elders, overseerers, deacons and so forth, leaders of the community. Obviously, Jesus had this in mind in Matthew 18, when He told the disciples to "take it to the Church" in the event of an issue with a fellow believer. Note carefully, if Jesus only had YOUR opinion on the matter, we could go to ANY believer (since Church is a believer, according to you). Jesus goes beyond in His three steps, going to one believer, then 2, then "the Church".

Now, it should be obvious that Jesus DID have something else in mind than just some vague and ambiguous image of "believers" in defining "Church". Clearly, He is speaking of those whom He gave the power to bind and loosen, in the following verse.

Read Mat 18:15-18. If Jesus' idea of Church stopped at "believer", WHY did He continue with Mat 18:17-18???

The very words of Jesus speak of a PARTICULAR group of men with the power to bind and loosen. It was THEM who believers were supposed to go to and resolve issues. This "leadership", tells us that the Church is indeed visible and it suggests we KNOW where to find it.

Regards
 
Eventide said:
Oh, Paul and Peter were catholic.. lol..
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Of course. The OT clearly points to the universal role of the Messiah - and Jesus verifies that by sending out His followers to the world, a universal community of followers, as God expands His people to include more than just the Jews. Jesus' mission is to the world, to heal the sin of the world. Obviously, Jesus would establish a universal church.

Universal, by the way, means catholic...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Of course. The OT clearly points to the universal role of the Messiah - and Jesus verifies that by sending out His followers to the world, a universal community of followers, as God expands His people to include more than just the Jews. Jesus' mission is to the world, to heal the sin of the world. Obviously, Jesus would establish a universal church.

Universal, by the way, means catholic...

Regards
Click to expand...

So we're all catholic !
 
Eventide said:
What about doctrine..? Do we need to know all there is to know about doctrine to become a member of the body of Christ..? How about the Catholic church... they're AMILLENNIAL... so are you suggesting that everyone in the church needs to believe in amillennial doctrine because your church does ?
Click to expand...

No, I'm simply saying that continuity of doctrine and acceptance of the bishops' doctrinal decisions (Acts 15) are necessary. Your definition is only part of what Scripture says about the Church.

Now, would you like to take a shot at the OP, or just continue taking shots at the Catholic Church?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.
 
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