God's Will?

[Jim Parker]

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (NKJV)
That says it is God's will that all (everybody, all mankind) should come to repentance and be saved.
That's not happening so God's will is not universally done.

Just because God is completely sovereign, it doesn't mean that He is unable to allow man to exercise his free will.
It would be stupid to try to force anyone to love you and God doesn't do stupid things so, man gets to choose love and life of no love and death.

Pick one.

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

That says it is God's will that all (everybody, all mankind) should come to repentance and be saved.

2 Peter 3:8-9 (LEB) Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that one day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
​

Context! He does not want any of you dear friends to perish but all of you dear friends to come to repentance.

 

[Jim Parker]

2 Peter 3:8-9 (LEB) Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that one day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
​

Context! He does not want any of you dear friends to perish but all of you dear friends to come to repentance.

Again you make a clear demonstration that the meaning of the word "context" is a complete mystery to you.
Yes, Peter wrote to believers. Who else do you think he would write to?? "To whom it may concern:" maybe?
That Peter is writing to believers about the delay of the parousia, (that's the context, by the way) in no way limits the word "all" to only believers.

The word "all" still means "all."

 

[chessman]

The word "all" still means "all."

Yep "all", "all" "you" "dear friends" whom God is being "patient toward".

Right from the context.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yep "all", "all" "you" "dear friends" whom God is being "patient toward".

Right from the context.

Since all those good friends are already believers, why would God have to be patient with them and giving them more time to repent? Have you considered that?
No, of course not.

 

[chessman]

Since all those good friends are already believers, why would God have to be patient with them and giving them more time to repent? Have you considered that?
No, of course not.

Yes, of course I considered it. First, is it your opinion that believers no longer need to repent?

But to answer your question, because as believers/friends wait, we should be maturing from infants into mature Christ-like friends.

2 Peter 3:14 (LEB) Therefore, dear friends, because you are waiting for these things, make every effort to be found at peace, spotless and unblemished in him.
​

And how are good friends, believers, yet new born infant children of God, found to be at peace, spotless and unblemished as we temporarily wait on Him, drawing nearer and nearer? Umm, we repent of our sins.

1 Peter 2:1-4 ... 11 (LEB) Therefore, ridding yourselves of all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn infants long for the unadulterated spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up to salvation, if you have tasted that the Lord is kind, to whom you are drawing near, ... 11 Dear friends, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to abstain from fleshly desires which wage war against your soul, maintaining your good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in the things in which they slander you as evildoers, by seeing your good deeds they may glorify God on the day of visitation.
25 For you were going astray like sheep, but you have turned back now to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.​

BTW: Who is the guardian of our souls?

Notice the patience that Peter says God had toward the eight He saved in Noah's day:

1 Peter 3:20 (LEB) the patience of God waited in the days of Noah, while an ark was being constructed, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were rescued through water. 21 And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​

​

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, of course I considered it. First, is it your opinion that believers no longer need to repent?

What in the world does that have to do with the passage?
IF believers need to repent in order not to perish, then you are saying that they can loose their salvation.
IS that your position?

 

[chessman]

What in the world does that have to do with the passage?

You asked "Since all those good friends are already believers, why would God have to be patient with them and giving them more time to repent?".

I gave the answer to your question. Even believers need to repent of their sins. It works. Like newborn infants, new believers need their diapers cleaned when a blemish in made.

1 John 1:8-10 (LEB) If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

The above passage is speaking to and about saved believers too.


Your question, however, assumes that "all" the dear friends Peter speaks of are already believers, which isn't in the Text. What's there is that it is God's will for all "dear friends" to come to repentance.

25 For you were going astray like sheep, but you have turned back now to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.​

You didn't answer; Who is the guardian of our souls?

 

[Jim Parker]

You asked "Since all those good friends are already believers, why would God have to be patient with them and giving them more time to repent?".

I gave the answer to your question. Even believers need to repent of their sins. It works. Like newborn infants, new believers need their diapers cleaned when a blemish in made.

1 John 1:8-10 (LEB) If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

The above passage is speaking to and about saved believers too.


Your question, however, assumes that "all" the dear friends Peter speaks of are already believers, which isn't in the Text. What's there is that it is God's will for all "dear friends" to come to repentance.

25 For you were going astray like sheep, but you have turned back now to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.​

You didn't answer; Who is the guardian of our souls?

Please try to stay on point and not wander all over the map.
I responded to what you said which was that Peter was talking about believers when he said that it is God's will that none should perish. (post #23: "Context! He does not want any of you dear friends to perish but all of you dear friends to come to repentance.")
Peter wrote that letter "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1)
Those people are already saved.
That's the CONTEXT of the letter.
The only way a believer could perish (go to hell) is if he lost his salvation.
So, are you or are you not saying that a believer can loose his salvation?

You didn't answer; Who is the guardian of our souls?

The word your translation renders "guardian" is the Greek word, "EPISKOPOS" from which we derive the English word "Bishop."
And he's talking about Christ.

BUt that has nothing to do with my agreement with the original post by Pizza to which you took exception.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I agreed with Pizza by pointing out that scripture (2 Peter 3:9) specifically states that it is God's will that none should perish and scripture also states that many will perish. (Mat 7:13)

And THAT is the CONTEXT of this thread.


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[chessman]

So, are you or are you not saying that a believer can loose his salvation?

Do you want to stay on topic or not?

I said the same thing that Peter was saying; The Lord does not want any of you [dear brothers] to perish, but all [you, dear brothers] to come to repentance.

Then simply pointed out that Peter also said that it is Christ who is the gaurdian (Overseer) of our [dear brothers] souls. Yes, I find implications toward all brothers security (not perishing) in Peter's statements.

But that's not what I specifically brought up in disagreement with your original claim from 2 Peter 3:9

Which is significantly different than what you said;

That says it is God's will that all (everybody, all mankind) should come to repentance and be saved.

Since clearly Peter is talking to and about brothers (i.e. brothers in Christ) within the same sentence, then your statement makes zero sense in two respects. (The NKJV even saying "us")

2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

1. It says nothing about everybody, all mankind. Nor every fallen angel nor every creature. He's talking about brothers (us in the NKJV) not perishing. Not all mankind or all whatever else someone might insert into the context.

2. Why is the Lord wanting saved brothers (to include Peter) to come to salvation??? They are already brothers. Your insertions make no sense of the verse (OSAS or not).

Rather than asking me if I've considered the verse, you should re-consider your original claim.

So, are you or are you not saying that a believer can loose his salvation?

Only if the Guardian/Overseer fails in His role as Guardian/Overseer of His dear brothers.

 

[Jim Parker]

Since clearly Peter is talking to and about brothers (i.e. brothers in Christ) within the same sentence, then your statement makes zero sense in two respects. (The NKJV even saying "us")

If Peter is clearly talking about his brothers in Christ when he said that it is God's will that all come to repentance and that none should perish, then, by your interpretation, he is saying that some of those "brothers in Christ (saved) need to repent so they do not perish.
And that means that (according to your statements) a "brother in Christ" may lose his salvation and need to repent so he doesn't perish.

 

[chessman]

Since Peter is clearly talking about his brothers in Christ when he said that it is God's will that all brothers come to repentance and that none should perish, he also says to not forget that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness. I do not count the Lord's timing or His Guardianship of all the souls of brothers with any slackness.

Thus, I'm OSAS. Couldn't be any clearer.

 

[st_worm2]

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. ~2 Peter 3

Hi Jim, I think I agree with Chessman about who St. Peter is addressing, in v's 8-9, as well in the entire Epistle. In this Chapter, St. Peter mentions what the "mockers" of the Lord were saying, "where is the promise of His coming" (v4), to explain to the saints (both then and now) that God has chosen to tarry for a very good reason, because of US :amen IOW, He tarries so that "all" of those He chose from before the foundation of the world (i.e. Ephesians 1:4), might have the time they need to come to repentance and be saved. So the "all" that He is being patient with are the elect (who have not yet come to faith), not the saints who are already in Christ.

Sometimes πᾶς [pas] refers to all people everwhere, sometimes is refers to all people in the sense of tribes, tongues, nations, etc. (most often, Biblically, it refers to the Jews AND non-Jews/the Nations/Greeks/Gentiles, but in this case, it refers to all who are "chosen" (but have not yet come to faith). I realize that v9 is a favorite verse of some and is certainly useful to support a particular presupposition, but to force πᾶς to mean "all w/o exception" in v9 takes the word out of the context that it's written in.

Yours in Christ,
David

"As many as had been appointed to
eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48​

 

[Mustard Socks]

I often hear people say that "God is in control".
I disagree. I think that He CAN exercise control, but that He does not always do so.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I often hear people say, "If it happened, then it was God's will".
I think that many things happen that are outside of His will.

If the above three italicized statements are all true, then, well, abortion happens. Is abortion, at least sometimes, God's will? (I say no. You will have a very hard time convincing me otherwise.)

See, my position is that God allows a LOT of stuff that is NOT in His will. I MUST take this position, otherwise, I must accept that His will includes some things that I find contradictory to what I understand His character to be.

I do not post here for a debate or argument, I instead ask others to offer me their view, their wisdom. Am I overlooking something within logic or scripture?

Can some of you help me out here?

Do you believe God is sovereign?

 

[Jim Parker]

He tarries so that "all" of those He chose from before the foundation of the world (i.e. Ephesians 1:4), might have the time they need to come to repentance and be saved. So the "all" that He is being patient with are the elect (who have not yet come to faith), not the saints who are already in Christ.

Jesus did not come to save some people and not others.
God does not love some of the world.
There is not a human being who ever lived that God did not want to come to repentance.
God is patient with every sinner (all mankind) that ever walked the earth so that they might have every opportunity to repent and believe the gospel.

The idea that Christ died only for the "elect" and not all sinners is a blasphemous abomination that proposes a God who is not love.

It requires that we believe in a God who overwhelms some sinners by the Holy Spirit and makes them love Him while letting the rest burn in hell for all eternity. That is also a hideous, blasphemous description of God who is Love.

If you can't see that, I don't think I can help you.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Proof That God Chooses Who Will Be Saved

 

[st_worm2]

The idea that Christ died only for the "elect" and not all sinners is a blasphemous abomination that proposes a God who is not love.

Hi Jim, I wasn't discussing the idea of a limited atonement, but we can if you'd like to, I suppose. Let me ask you this question first though, do you believe that God knows who His Elect are, IOW, who will and who will not be saved?

Assuming that you do, why would God tell us that He's being "patient" with those He knows are reprobate, with those He knows are perishing and will NEVER come to faith? Again, contextually, "beloved", "you", and "all" in 2 Peter 3:8-9, refer specifically to the saints who have already come to faith, or to the Elect who eventually will, 'not' to those who God already knows never will.

Yours in Christ,
David

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. ~2 Peter 3

 

[chessman]

The idea that Christ died only for the "elect" and not all sinners is a blasphemous abomination that proposes a God who is not love.

Will you share a Scripture that teaches the idea that Christ died for all sinners?

1 Timothy 1:15-16 (LEB) The saying is trustworthy and worthy of all acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But because of this I was shown mercy, in order that in me foremost, Christ Jesus might demonstrate his total patience, for an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.​

Notice this would have been a perfect spot for Paul to have agreed with your idea, but he doesn't. He could have said 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save all sinners. But he didn't say that. Christ is an example for those sinners (of whom Paul was foremost) that are going to believe, not for 'all sinners'.

Umm, there's that patience again that Peter spoke of for those whom are going to believe! I.e. Dear brothers (beloved brothers) like brother Paul:

Notice:

2 Peter 3:15-16 (LEB) And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our dear brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom that was given to him, as he does also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which there are some things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, as they also do the rest of the scriptures.​

Now you can regard the patience of our Lord as slowness/slackness for 'all sinners' to have 'every opportunity' to believe (some of which do not and will not call Him Lord) if you like. Or you can be like Paul and Peter and regard the patience of OUR Lord AS salvation. I'm with Peter and Paul on this.

That is also a hideous, blasphemous description of God who is Love.

God is also true:

John 3:33 (LEB) The one who accepts his testimony has attested that God is true. ​

God is also wrathful:

John 3:36 (LEB) The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him. ​

 

[Jim Parker]

I wasn't discussing the idea of a limited atonement,

It is repeatedly referred to in the thread, though not overtly, with words like "those Christ died for".
TULIP is very clearly part and parcel of the thread as demonstrated by the OSAS folk's vehement rejection of any logical or reasonable understanding of the word "all" in 2 Pete 3:9.


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Thou shalt not snivel! Thou hast been forewarned! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[JohnDB]

Moderator hat on:

Please find substantial reasons for points you are making and leave personal comments out.