journeymanisnothing
Member
I read it again in another thread somewhere about how God poured his wrath out on our Lord Jesus. Where did this terrible mistake about what the scriptures say come from?
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Gods' Wrath
- Thread starter journeymanisnothing
- Start date
What do the Scriptures say?
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
If sinners deserve wrath, and Jesus bore our sins, then He bore that wrath.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
journeymanisnothing
Member
You're misunderstanding what it means that Christ bore our sins. He means our Lord was sinned against, like this,
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exo.20:16
At the last came two false witnesses, Mt.26:60
the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. Exo.23:7
And they crucified him, Mt.27:35
Isa.53:10 says it pleased God to crush his Son. Vs.11 says God is satisfied by seeing the travail of his Sons' soul. The reason for these things is because rather than destroy his enemies, Jesus our Savior, like his Father patiently endured sin against himself, pointing sinners toward repentence.
The Father is well pleased that his Son is exactly as God is.
I think this is your misunderstanding. I've never heard this interpretation in 30 years of studying. It annuls all the teaching in the OT of the whole sacrificial system. Why did Jesus have to die?
journeymanisnothing
Member
He died because his word to the Prophets was that the Messiah would teach the world about God and suffer for it,
For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. Heb.12:3
This doesn't annul the sacrificial system, where the Lamb of God offered himself willingly, so that people would repent of the wrong done to God.
Well, let's see: For God so loved the world that He send his only begotten Son so that people would repent of the wrong done to God.
Don't think so. This is the moral influence theory. He only suffered and died to influence people.
Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Jesus bore our sins, therefore we are justified (declared not guilty of all our sins) by His blood and are saved from the wrath of God.
Luk_3:7 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
How are we saved by Jesus from the wrath of God? Because He is a moral influence? Or because He bore that wrath Himself on our behalf. That is why He is called a savior. He actually saves people from something.
Jesus bore our sins on the cross being made the final sacrifice for sin. God can never pour His wrath out on the Deity as He would be pouring it out upon Himself. But God will pour His wrath out into the world against those in the end of days that continue to do evil against Him as many walk in disobedience to Him.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Gods'Son preached repentance, patiently waiting for sinners who desire forgiveness to come to him. Even people who sinned by spitting on.
He did suffer and die to influence people, because the proof of Gods' love is complete in loving the ungodly who wanted him dead. And that is where the Holy Spirit imparted to believers sweetly influences us to go.
Look at the preceding verses. Paul is showing how believers who are beaten for their faith are justified by Christs sacrifice.
This is what you're not seeing. Believers are persecuted for doing right, as the Master was.
Jesus had sin inflicted on him. He bore the sin of having nails pounded into his hands and feet.
And this is how John the baptizer told those snakes to flee from wrath,
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance Lk.3:
Right. If any sinner does not believe he needs to repent, if he doesn't believe what Jesus said, the wrath of God abides on him.
God doesn't pour his wrath out on the righteous. Evil men do,
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isa.50:6
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23
journeymanisnothing
Member
If you mean Jesus bore the sin of abusing an innocent Man, I agree. If you mean our Creator which Jesus is, will forgive any sin committed against him, provided a sinner is remorseful to repentance, I agree.
Dorothy Mae
Member
God supposedly pouring his wrath out on poor Jesus is only a theological construct. It is not what scripture presents. The particulars of why and how Jesus had to die for our benefit from Gods point of view is not well understood (same as other ways He views matters are not well understood.)
His wrath is reported to be on those who sin and for those sins. The books will be opened and people will be judged based on the deeds of their life. That’s what the scripture says more than once. Vengeance (for sin) is mine, says the Lord, and we can trust Him to do justly. (“Rejecting Jesus” is not the major sin listed, nor is it listed at all in Revelation as the only problem but instead “the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars” are the sins listed receiving wrath, if “wrath” is there.)
I agree with the OP. I’m fairly confident that wrath was not what God was experiencing as Jesus suffered on the cross.
His wrath is reported to be on those who sin and for those sins. The books will be opened and people will be judged based on the deeds of their life. That’s what the scripture says more than once. Vengeance (for sin) is mine, says the Lord, and we can trust Him to do justly. (“Rejecting Jesus” is not the major sin listed, nor is it listed at all in Revelation as the only problem but instead “the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars” are the sins listed receiving wrath, if “wrath” is there.)
I agree with the OP. I’m fairly confident that wrath was not what God was experiencing as Jesus suffered on the cross.
Yes, because He already satisfied that wrath on Jesus. That wrath is due to everybody who sins. Jesus bore our sins and the punishment due them. Therefore what you wrote is true "God doesn't pour out His wrath on the righteous."
Only if you dismiss God's justice. If wrong is done, God cannot just ignore it like the Santa Clause god some people believe in.
Amplified Bible
Galatians 3:13 Christ purchased our freedom and redeemed us from the curse of the Law and its condemnation by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs [crucified] on a tree (cross)”
English Standard Version
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Redemption: A releasing by ransom. God did not set men right out of hand with nothing done about men’s sins. We have the words of Jesus that he came to give his life a ransom (lutron) for many. Lutron is common in the papyri as the purchase-money in freeing slaves.
The Lord had to punish our sins. Because of His love, He gave us a substitute to bear those sins. Even the sins of those in the Old Testament Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. In his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins till the substitute would atone for them.
What I'm saying is that God did not pour His wrath out on Jesus, but that Jesus took our sins upon Himself that by His blood we can be washed clean again by God's righteousness to all who by faith will repent and believe in Him.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Perfectly articulated!!! I wholly agree!!
Dorothy Mae
Member
Doesn’t say God experienced wrath and poured it on on Jesus. Also begs the question as to why his wrath was (or will be) poured out AFTER the cross as described in Revelation.
Doesn’t mean he was wrathful at the cross.
No wrath mentioned.
No wrath mentioned.
No wrath mentioned.
The forgiveness of sins by the blood of Jesus doesn’t require God to have satisfied rage. It satisfied justice, not rage. God is more level headed than you give Him credit for being.
Wrath in God is not rage. You remind me of how some atheists talk about God.
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
Wrath is used with reference to both God and man. When used of God it is to be understood that there is the complete absence of that caprice and unethical quality so prominent in the anger attributed to the gods of the heathen and to man. The divine wrath is to be regarded as the natural expression of the divine nature, which is absolute holiness, manifesting itself against the willful, high-handed, deliberate, inexcusable sin and iniquity of mankind. God's wrath is always regarded in the Scripture as the just, proper, and natural expression of His holiness and righteousness which must always, under all circumstances, and at all costs be maintained. It is therefore a righteous indignation and compatible with the holy and righteous nature of God.
journeymanisnothing
Member
God never satisfies his wrath on an innocent man, which he was.
Right and that doesn't include his Son, or his sons through faith in him.
No. "You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin. Heb.12:4
Look at what he's saying. Jesus shed his blood striving against sin.....(striving against sin that was being inflicted on him by ungodly mankind.)
Do you understand that what was done to Jesus was sinful?
But you're saying he does. See his sin bearing this way,
the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me Psa.69:9, Rom.15:3
People who chided, reviled, etc. God, did so to his Son. He bore (patiently endured) this mistreatment.
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. Heb.13:13
journeymanisnothing
Member
I agree, but it matters how "Jesus took our sins",
There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: Pro.6:16
Read the 7 sins God despises in vss.17-19 Every one of those sins was committed against the Son of God.....and he bore them. Amen?
We are washed clean by his righteousness, because his righteousness is enduring much atrocity against himself, before bringing us into judgment.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Spoken by a theologian who knows the scripture but not the Person the writers of the scripture knew. (The Encyclopedia, not you.) Said theologian has likely never ever experienced just wrath/rage or was never able to connect personal rage with anything righteous.
God’s wrath or rage can be the same as ours when we love righteousness and hate evil. We are made in his likeness and can experience emotions same as his, when our motives are the same as his (I admit, rare.)
I know what the seven sins are, but do you think Jesus had any of them in order for God's wrath to be poured out on Him? This is what you are saying.
journeymanisnothing
Member
No my friend. I believe the wrath of men, sinners, was poured out on him.
We can understand that to have an innocent man humiliated as our Lord was constitutes sinful conduct against him. Do you agree?
If so, can we also agree that our Savior chose to show by example the longsuffering of his Father. By longsuffering I mean being willing to forgive people who are committing atrocious sins against him.