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Gods' Wrath

Consecrated Life said:
It was to pay a ransom for many , the many being us , that the transaction between the two principles on Calvary took place .
The ransom was not being paid to us , it was being paid for us and our sins .
Yes ? No?
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Yes, but the "ransom" is from death. The principles at the cross are Life vs death, not Father vs Son. We're loosed from death by faith that God conquered it.
Our Creator suffered a price that was paid to no one.
 
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journeyman said:
God himself holding back his wrath as wicked men pound nails into him? Yeah. What more do you want?
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Again, you don't get it. Have you ever heard the expression "give a man enough rope to hang himself?"

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The reason God did not pour out His wrath then, is because He has already appointed a day to do that. That was more than 2,000 years in the future at that point. He has a plan, that plan has a timeline in it.
 
journeyman said:
At Calvery, what took place was between God ( Fathe/Son/Spirit) and mankind. God showing mercy toward sinners who wanted him dead. Mankind showing hatred toward God,

The kings of the earthset themselves, and the rulerstake counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, Psa.2:2, Act.4:25

Believers can and should want to know Christ in his sufferings,

That I may know him,and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings,being made conformable unto his death; Phl.3:10

Paul wanted to know how Jesus felt for loving others who wanted him dead. Peter says that when believers are persecuted for their faith in Christ,

ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; 1Pet.4:13

Scripture teaches this truth,

You will indeed drink from my cup Mt.20:23

In you our ancestors put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. Psa.22:4

in you they trusted and were not put to shame. vs.5

will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you. vs.22

Jesus knew that whole Psalm, which predicts the suffering, caused by vss.6-18.
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Hi journeyman, the above is ok and I agree except with the statement regarding Paul wanted to know what Jesus felt at the point in time on the cross. That is way too superficial although it reflects our modern thinking with its emphasis on experiencing things.

Paul wanted fellowship with Jesus. He wanted to serve him and give to Him that which pleases Him and understand the mind and heart of Christ. This includes how Jesus feels but about everything, not just the cross. There is a delight in intimacy with Christ which includes suffering with Him.
 
Whatever said:
Again, you don't get it. Have you ever heard the expression "give a man enough rope to hang himself?"

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The reason God did not pour out His wrath then, is because He has already appointed a day to do that. That was more than 2,000 years in the future at that point. He has a plan, that plan has a timeline in it.
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He poured out his wrath on that generation that crucified Jesus. I know you guys believe this is in the future but really, it makes more sense to believe God did this on those who killed the son. It makes no sense to believe God poured out his wrath for Jesus’ wrongful death on people who had nothing to do with the matter. I know that’s the theology but it really makes no sense.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
He poured out his wrath on that generation that crucified Jesus. I know you guys believe this is in the future but really, it makes more sense to believe God did this on those who killed the son. It makes no sense to believe God poured out his wrath for Jesus’ wrongful death on people who had nothing to do with the matter. I know that’s the theology but it really makes no sense.
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Yes, He poured out His wrath on that generation around AD70.

Mat_23:36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus said that many times. But it was still 40 or so years after Jesus was crucified. But it was only a physical pouring out of wrath. The temple destroyed, many killed, many taken into captivity and so forth.

Those will be resurrected on the last day to be judged and turned into Hell or the lake of fire or whatever.

So, there is a sometimes pouring out of wrath in the physical realm, not only on Israel, but others like Jericho, Egypt etc.

Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Isa 19:2 And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;
Isa 19:3 and the spirit of the Egyptians within them will be emptied out, and I will confound their counsel; and they will inquire of the idols and the sorcerers, and the mediums and the necromancers;
Isa 19:4 and I will give over the Egyptians into the hand of a hard master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

But something much worse awaits them on the last day when they experience the second death.
 
Whatever said:
Yes, He poured out His wrath on that generation around AD70.

Mat_23:36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus said that many times. But it was still 40 or so years after Jesus was crucified. But it was only a physical pouring out of wrath. The temple destroyed, many killed, many taken into captivity and so forth.

Those will be resurrected on the last day to be judged and turned into Hell or the lake of fire or whatever.

So, there is a sometimes pouring out of wrath in the physical realm, not only on Israel, but others like Jericho, Egypt etc.

Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Isa 19:2 And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;
Isa 19:3 and the spirit of the Egyptians within them will be emptied out, and I will confound their counsel; and they will inquire of the idols and the sorcerers, and the mediums and the necromancers;
Isa 19:4 and I will give over the Egyptians into the hand of a hard master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

But something much worse awaits them on the last day when they experience the second death.
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I agree totally.
 
Whatever said:
Again, you don't get it. Have you ever heard the expression "give a man enough rope to hang himself?"

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The reason God did not pour out His wrath then, is because He has already appointed a day to do that. That was more than 2,000 years in the future at that point. He has a plan, that plan has a timeline in it.
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I agree our Lord will judge all. Even unrepentant people who sinned by putting him to death.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Hi journeyman, the above is ok and I agree except with the statement regarding Paul wanted to know what Jesus felt at the point in time on the cross. That is way too superficial although it reflects our modern thinking with its emphasis on experiencing things.

Paul wanted fellowship with Jesus. He wanted to serve him and give to Him that which pleases Him and understand the mind and heart of Christ. This includes how Jesus feels but about everything, not just the cross. There is a delight in intimacy with Christ which includes suffering with Him.
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Hi Dorothy Mae.
I wasn't implying suffering is all we can know about Jesus, but it's very important to understand how he bore the sins of this world. Paul, along with every believer who suffers persecution, does so because Christ is in them, bearing the sins of this world. Of course we're not the Shepherd, but we're being made like him.
 
journeyman said:
Hi Dorothy Mae.
I wasn't implying suffering is all we can know about Jesus, but it's very important to understand how he bore the sins of this world. Paul, along with every believer who suffers persecution, does so because Christ is in them, bearing the sins of this world. Of course we're not the Shepherd, but we're being made like him.
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We bring the sacrifice of praise. I
Agree we are not The Shepherd, and we point this out.

eddif
 
eddif said:
We bring the sacrifice of praise.
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Yes we do and as Heb.13:13 says,

We must go out to him, then, outside the camp, bearing the abuse he experienced.

It's easy to praise God when all is well.

Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, acknowledging his name. Heb.13:15

So they left the council rejoicing because they had been considered worthy to suffer dishonor for the sake of the name. Act.5:41

May God help us to grow little by little. 😊
eddif said:
Agree we are not The Shepherd, and we point this out.

eddif
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Right,

Paul (or eddif or journeyman) wasn't crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul? 1Cor.1:13
 
Whatever said:
But what about repentant people that had a hand in putting Him to death?
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They're forgiven

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart.....Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act.2:37-38
 
journeyman said:
Hi Dorothy Mae.
I wasn't implying suffering is all we can know about Jesus, but it's very important to understand how he bore the sins of this world. Paul, along with every believer who suffers persecution, does so because Christ is in them, bearing the sins of this world. Of course we're not the Shepherd, but we're being made like him.
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Greetings dear journeyman! I very much appreciate the heart that is reflected in your post here. This shows a desire to understand in depth what the scripture is saying.

I struggle to find the words to express what I want to say. Sharing in the sufferings of Christ is not trying to imagine what it was for him on the cross. It is not limited to nor primarily sufferings because one is a christian. It is walking so close to him that the concerns He has today, the points that are happening today, grieve you as they grieve Him to the degree one can bear it.

I’ll give a good example. When believers accuse the Father of evil, christ suffers. Those who really do have the mind of Christ, who are close enough to share in that suffering, suffer too. Those believers who do not, blithely continue in their theology unaware of the suffering their teaching inflicts. For them, theology is an abstract intellectual subject, not a person who shares in living relationships. The difference is night and day.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Greetings dear journeyman! I very much appreciate the heart that is reflected in your post here. This shows a desire to understand in depth what the scripture is saying.

I struggle to find the words to express what I want to say. Sharing in the sufferings of Christ is not trying to imagine what it was for him on the cross. It is not limited to nor primarily sufferings because one is a christian. It is walking so close to him that the concerns He has today, the points that are happening today, grieve you as they grieve Him to the degree one can bear it.

I’ll give a good example. When believers accuse the Father of evil, christ suffers. Those who really do have the mind of Christ, who are close enough to share in that suffering, suffer too. Those believers who do not, blithely continue in their theology unaware of the suffering their teaching inflicts. For them, theology is an abstract intellectual subject, not a person who shares in living relationships. The difference is night and day.
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Yes it is Dorothy Mae and I agree with the rest of your post.
 
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