Gods' Wrath

[Dorothy Mae]

But again you fail to understand the whole point of why Jesus came.

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The words "to be" are added to the text. It literally reads "He made Him who knew no sin sin on our behalf.

He actually became sin, not a sinner, but sin itself.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of (struck down by) God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. (He himself was sinless)
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt,

Who was the Lord going to crush?
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us . . .

God made Jesus sin (He became the persona of sin) and He became a curse. It was the Man Jesus whom God poured out his wrath on.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,

You have to remember that Jesus had two natures. The Diving Word and the flesh and blood body born of a woman. The Divine Word did not suffer or feel pain.

I like the Amplified Bible on this
Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since [these His] children share in flesh and blood [the physical nature of mankind], He Himself in a similar manner also shared in the same [physical nature, but without sin], so that through [experiencing] death He might make powerless (ineffective, impotent) him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—

Not a single verse says God experienced a relief for his wrath as Jesus died. Not one. You can talk
about Jesus bearing our sin til the cows come home and you won’t find that the Father finally felt relief from his anger (problem.) That was not what the Father felt.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But again you fail to understand the whole point of why Jesus came.

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The words "to be" are added to the text. It literally reads "He made Him who knew no sin sin on our behalf.

He actually became sin, not a sinner, but sin itself.

Paul is teaching that Jesus was falsely accused,

we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24

and he was numbered with the transgressors Isa.53:12

 

[Whatever]

Paul is teaching that Jesus was falsely accused,

I only found 2 places in Paul where the word "falsely" appears.
1Ti_6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Pe_3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

But I agree, the Jews accused Jesus of all kinds of things that were false. But using the passage where they accused Jesus of being a sinner is laughable.

Joh_7:12 And there was much muttering about him among the people. While some said, “He is a good man,” . . .

I guess Jesus being a good man was also a false accusation.

The Jews had Jesus put to death on false charges. That has nothing to do with Him being made sin on the cross. This was God's doing.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Whatever]

Not a single verse says God experienced a relief for his wrath as Jesus died. Not one.

That is because God does not "feel relief. You come up with your own ideas of what God is supposed to do or feel and wonder why I don't show you a passage that proves it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

1Pe_3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

This quote from Peter is exactly what I'm trying to show you. Peter is teaching how people will speak evil of us because of Christ. Why? Because they did it to out Master,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust... 1Pet.3:17-18

Look at what he's saying this way. Jesus suffered for well doing.

The Jews had Jesus put to death on false charges. That has nothing to do with Him being made sin on the cross. This was God's doing.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Again, look at what he's saying this way. God knew his Son would be taken by wicked hands and executed unjustly, contrary to what the law says about execution for sins worthy of death.

The point is, God permitted his Son to show his loving kindness toward people who hated him.

All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son decides to reveal him. Mt.11:27

Can we agree that Jesus showed us our Father?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is because God does not "feel relief. You come up with your own ideas of what God is supposed to do or feel and wonder why I don't show you a passage that proves it.

Those who claim God poured out his wrath on Jesus have to provide scripture that says this. There aren’t any. There are scriptures that say Jesus bore our sin. There are no scriptures that say Jesus was in agony but we know he was. There are no scriptures that describe the experience God had at the time but we know what it is to love someone and we know what it is to watch them suffer. Pouring our anger on them isn’t a match in that scenario.

 

[rod1011]

Good read endeed.

 

[Whatever]

Can we agree that Jesus showed us our Father?

Yes, Jesus showed up the Father.
Yes, the Father so loved the world that He sent His son.
1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

But this thread it titled God's wrath. He sent His son out of love for the World. The Son came out of love for the world. But what was the purpose of His coming? Just to show people how to be nice to bad people?

Lev_16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Why do you think God instituted these things? He was teaching them the concept of substitution? It was that a guilty person could have a substitute take their place. But Hebrews tell us that bulls and goats can never take away sin. (Heb. 10:4) It took a perfect, spotless, sinless human to be substituted.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

I don't see how you can see the words Isaiah uses and think that Jesus' death on the cross was no big deal. Almost like the thief next to him suffered just as much as Jesus did.

 

[Whatever]

There are no scriptures that say Jesus was in agony but we know he was.

Well, if there are no scriptures saying He was in agony, how do you know He was? Oh, by common sense. What we call logical implications.

Pouring our anger on them isn’t a match in that scenario.

Are you kidding? You want to humanize God, well jilted husbands constantly pour anger and wrath on their unfaithful wives. Remember, God is just like us since we are made in His image.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, if there are no scriptures saying He was in agony, how do you know He was? Oh, by common sense. What we call logical implications.

No, it’s from knowing that hanging by nails in the wrists is excruciating. That where this word meaning terrible pain, comes from. It’s not logic, it’s compassion.

Are you kidding? You want to humanize God, well jilted husbands constantly pour anger and wrath on their unfaithful wives. Remember, God is just like us since we are made in His image.

You forget that that description you supply is unrighteousness. There is a godly jealousy. It behaves differently.

And we were talking a father watching a son in agony. Wrath isn’t the first response.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes, Jesus showed up the Father.
Yes, the Father so loved the world that He sent His son.
1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

But this thread it titled God's wrath. He sent His son out of love for the World. The Son came out of love for the world. But what was the purpose of His coming? Just to show people how to be nice to bad people?

No. Jesus shows us how much he loves people who don't love him,

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Lk.6:35

He's showing us the way God is. Yikes!!!

Lev_16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Why do you think God instituted these things? He was teaching them the concept of substitution? It was that a guilty person could have a substitute take their place. But Hebrews tell us that bulls and goats can never take away sin. (Heb. 10:4) It took a perfect, spotless, sinless human to be substituted.

No. They were confessing the sins they inflicted on him, which he carried day in and day out,

Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me? Jn.18:23

Can you even imagine calling Jesus a liar? God on earth a liar? It's outrageous

Isaiah 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

I don't see how you can see the words Isaiah uses and think that Jesus' death on the cross was no big deal. Almost like the thief next to him suffered just as much as Jesus did.

I have no idea why you accuse me of thinking our Lords' death is no big deal. It's the biggest deal there ever has been or will be.

But to put Isa.53:4 into perspective, it goes with this,

Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. Mk.15:32

They thought Jesus couldn't come down from the cross because he was guilty.
The real reason is that if Jesus came down from that cross, immediate condemnation would have fallen on the unrepentant,

In other words, he didn't bring them before his law,


Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col.2:14

Do you understand my friend? What they're doing to Jesus is sin....and he's not holding them immediately accountable for it. Why? Because he preached repentance.

 

[Whatever]

Do you understand my friend? What they're doing to Jesus is sin....and he's not holding them immediately accountable for it. Why? Because he preached repentance.

God held very few people immediately accountable. He set up the sacrificial system so He could pass over their sins until Jesus paid for them.

Actually, I don't really understand what you are getting at. I don't disagree that Jesus was sinned against during His life. But the fact that He even came here (became flesh) was to deal with and atone for zillions of sins since Adam, and even now 2,000 years later.

 

[Whatever]

No, it’s from knowing that hanging by nails in the wrists is excruciating.

So, the thief next to him suffered no more than Jesus?

 

[Whatever]

Propitiate - Expiate - Sacrifice of atonement

English Standard Version
Rom_3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Revised Standard Version
whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
NIV Bible
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Those 3 different translations above, translate one Greek word:
2435 hilastḗrion (a substantival adjective, derived from 2433 /hiláskomai, "to propitiate") – the place of propitiation; the lid of the golden ark (the mercy-seat) where the blood of a vicarious lamb appeased God's wrath on sin.

===========================================
Heb_2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

The word in Hebrews is related:
2433 hiláskomai (akin to 2434 /hilasmós, "propitiation, appeasement/satisfaction of divine wrath on sin") – properly, to extend propitiation, showing mercy by satisfying (literally, propitiating) the wrath of God on sin; "to conciliate, appease, propitiate

===============================================
1Jn_2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn_4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The word in John is:
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

You can deny what these passages are implying all you want too.

 

[God Is My Judge]

My dear Journeyman, where does the Bible say God poured out his wrath on Jesus and why did He later (or will) pour out his bowls of wrath on sinners if His wrath was already satisfied?

The wrath is satisfied for those who repent and are saved from among Jew and Gentile. Wrath is for sinners. Like you I don't understand it all as to the "why", I just simply accept it. Who am I but a person to answer back to God? He has His method. He made everything; it is His story. If God wants to spare me any wrath by taking on the form of a man as the second personification of God to carry the Father's wrath as Son of Man and Son of God, it's all good to me. Thank you Jesus! God scares me.

Isaiah 53:5-6
English Standard Version
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.​

1John2: 1-2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[God Is My Judge]

But again you fail to understand the whole point of why Jesus came.

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The words "to be" are added to the text. It literally reads "He made Him who knew no sin sin on our behalf.

He actually became sin, not a sinner, but sin itself.

This isn't complicated. Christ is the Lamb of God. He was the replacement sacrifice that the lamb sacrifice of the OC represented. The lamb did not sin but the sins of the people were symbolically placed upon that animal. Christ, who is the final sacrifice became that actual Lamb for us. He being God, is the only one who could take on the sins of the whole world and not sin. No mere mortal could do that is the point, only God. Man can only overcome sin by Mercy and grace. Sin is that big and that bad, it comes in various degrees and Christ carried them all. Christ who knew no sin took upon Himself the wrath and weight of sin in an act of mercy that we may, by His graciousness continue on in life. He did us a solid- favor. The only sin not forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To me that is the kind of sin the angels committed. That was a sin of fully knowing God and truth and choosing evil over it. Concerning people, Peter likens it to a dog returning to its own vomit.

2Peter2:

…21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
2 Peter 2:
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. 3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.

4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
2 Peter2:
10Such punishment is specially reserved for those who indulge the corrupt desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and self-willed, they are unafraid to slander glorious beings.11Yet not even angels, though greater in strength and power, dare to bring such slanderous charges against them before the Lord.

 

[electedbyHim]

Greetings,

Just an observation.

Matthew 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

this cup. Cf. verse Mat_26:42. A cup often symbolizes divine wrath against sin in the OT (Isa_51:17, Isa_51:22; Jer_25:15-17, Jer_25:27-29; Lam_4:21-22; Eze_23:31-34; Hab_2:16). The next day, Christ will "bear the sins of many" (Heb_9:28), and the fullness of divine wrath will fall on Him (Isa_53:10-11; 2Co_5:21). This is the price of the sin He bore, and He paid it in full. His cry of anguish in Mat_27:46 reflects the extreme bitterness of the cup of wrath He is given.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God held very few people immediately accountable. He set up the sacrificial system so He could pass over their sins until Jesus paid for them.

Jesus did "pass over their sins by not holding them immediately accountable for what they we're doing to him,

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2Cor.5:19

You're right that the Father didn't hold people immediatrlely accountable,

For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. Jn.5:19

Actually, I don't really understand what you are getting at. I don't disagree that Jesus was sinned against during His life. But the fact that He even came here (became flesh) was to deal with and atone for zillions of sins since Adam, and even now 2,000 years later.

Atonement is bringing someone into oneness with God. That can only happen if people are conformed to Christs' image.

This is why Christs'disciples suffered. They fully understood how our Lord suffered unjustly at the hands of mankind. They were being conformed to his image.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The wrath is satisfied for those who repent and are saved from among Jew and Gentile. Wrath is for sinners. Like you I don't understand it all as to the "why", I just simply accept it. Who am I but a person to answer back to God? He has His method. He made everything; it is His story. If God wants to spare me any wrath by taking on the form of a man as the second personification of God to carry the Father's wrath as Son of Man and Son of God, it's all good to me. Thank you Jesus! God scares me.

Isaiah 53:5-6​

English Standard Version​

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;​

he was crushed for our iniquities;​

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,​

and with his wounds we are healed.​

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;​

we have turned—every one—to his own way;​

and the Lord has laid on him​

the iniquity of us all.​

1John2: 1-2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

We are commanded to love God with our minds. That means He is understandable. If there is a logical problem, it doesn’t rest with Him, but our theology. We have assumed things of him that are not true.

Believing God poured out his wrath on Jesus is not in scripture and therefore doesn’t make sense considering he later pours out his wrath. The scriptures above do not say that God poured out his wrath on Jesus. They do say Jesus bore out sin. They don’t say God was angry and released his anger punishing Jesus instead. This theology, frankly, is deeply insulting to the Father. This is why I defend Him against the untruth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, the thief next to him suffered no more than Jesus?

No, because a man who was sinless, who passionately loved goodness and truth suffers more under injustice and evil than an evil man.