Dorothy Mae
Member
My dear Journeyman, where does the Bible say God poured out his wrath on Jesus and why did He later (or will) pour out his bowls of wrath on sinners if His wrath was already satisfied?
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Gods' Wrath
- Thread starter journeymanisnothing
- Start date
No, I am not saying that Jesus had any of those sins. But He took on the punishment for those sins that we committed.
Isa_53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa_53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[a] his life an offering for sin, . . .
Crush
H1792
דָּכָא
dâkâ'
A primitive root to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
suffer
H2470
חָלָה
châlâh
A primitive root; properly to be rubbed or worn; hence (figuratively) to be weak, sick, afflicted; or (causatively) to grieve, make sick; also to stroke (in flattering), entreat: - beseech, (be) diseased, (put to) grief, be grieved, (be) grievous, infirmity, intreat, lay to, put to pain, X pray, make prayer, be (fall, make) sick, sore, be sorry, make suit (X supplication), woman in travail, be (become) weak, be wounded.
Why can't you understand the concept of substitution? Jesus was our substitute. He voluntarily took our place and bore the punishment we deserved. We didn't deserve a slap on the wrist.
That was the whole teaching of the OT. An innocent, spotless lamb was killed in the place of the sinner.
Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
I do not believe that God has involuntary emotions. He has perfect foreknowledge. He has no reason to fly into a rage, or pout from hurt feelings. If you use passages that says God is angry or jealous at face value, then you must also think that God has hands and eyes and surfs on clouds. These are all anthropomorphism's where God is speaking to us in human language that has limitations.
journeymanisnothing
Member
The Bible doesn't teach this. That's my point.
Apparently God wrath is appeased when sinners repent of their sins
Dorothy Mae
Member
The question is only difficult to those who’ve decided God satisfied his (arbitrary) wrath when He observed Jesus suffering, painting him as a monster.
Dorothy Mae
Member
It’s likely his wrath is reserved for serious offenses like crucifying the son of God and murdering all the messengers sent to help. It’s not against those who merely reject Him. Their offenses are those actually committed for which they will stand in judgement. Seems fair.
Dorothy Mae
Member
You are assuming rage is never justified or comes uncontrolled. It says He was angry or sorrowful and it’s best to take that as written.
It’s also best not to mix his foreknowledge in. We cannot rightly understand that as He knows it to be. It’s very much NOT likely to be like a movie where you already (yawn) know the ending.
The Bible says God is spirit which then tells us that physical descriptions are sometimes, at least, metaphors. But emotions are not. They are part of being alive. Those are not anthropomorphisms. They are real. We see in Jesus when and why does has emotional responses. Being made in his image means there are features that resemble our Father. Having emotions is one of them.
Yes, for creatures. We are created beings who work through brains. We are influenced by everything we experience.
Yes, Jesus took on flesh and became a man working through the limitations of flesh and blood.
Philippians 2: 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
I keep these passages in mind:
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God is an eternally existing being who is omniscient. He lives in eternity. We live in a tiny sliver of time.
Yes, because Jesus satisfied that wrath for all who believe.
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
1Th_1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Apparently that wrath is still coming.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
That is what Jesus paid for on the cross. He took on that vengeance/punishment in our place to deliver us from the wrath to come.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Experience is not the only teacher unless we categorize becoming aware of information as “experience.” If so, all living is merely experience, nothing is learning or applying.
You should read the rest of that passage. It talks about the wicked man changing, not those doing right. The wicked man’s thoughts are not as God’s. The NT says we (can) have the mind of Christ.
What difference does that make? He still has emotions.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I agree. The truth is, the Father was satisfied that his Son was (and always will be) exactly as he is. The Father is patient with sinners, giving us time to repent, regardless of the horrible sins being committed against him. That's what the cross of our gentle Savior shows.
for I do always those things that please him. Jn.8:29
journeymanisnothing
Member
For all who believe.....because they repented, understand?
Jesus poured his life out, so that sinners would repent of the wrong done to him (and his Father. God was pleased by his Sons'sacrifice, because Jesus had the power to kill sinners. Talk about longsuffering!
The unsaved won't repent of wanting God dead.....understand?
Sinners poured all their wrath out on Jesus, sinning against him and although God was pleased by the mercy his Son showed, the Father wasn't pleased by how Jesus was being mistreated,
He will miserably destroy those wicked men Mt.21:41
He's saying we're justified in our beliefs, in how we conduct our lives now, because of the blood (the life) of Christ.
Read the chapter. Paul is talking about how the Thessalonians received the gospel, despite the persecution they saw Paul and other disciples going through. Paul commends the Thessalonians for enduring persecution themselves.
He taught how believers would suffer as our Lord did. He reminds us that no persecution even to death could defeat Christ and he is returning for us.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Dorothy Mae
Member
I guess I prefer to understand His feelings as He actually described them…”well pleased” was what He said.
So you are saying then if I am hearing you correctly that God punished His only begotten Son Christ Jesus because we are sinners!!!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Do these verses seem like God punished Jesus for our sins, or that because of His love Jesus sacrificed His own life that we can now be forgiven and have eternal life with Him.
Same thing to me. The Father and the Son covenanted together to save sinners. The Father promised to give people to Jesus provided He come and be their sacrificial lamb.
John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
John 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
John 17: 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
John 4:34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
John 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
Sounds like love to me.
1 john 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Out of love God the Father sent His Son into the world as an atoning sacrifice, and Jesus out of love came and did it.
This is how the Amplified Bible puts it:
1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [that is, the atoning sacrifice, and the satisfying offering] for our sins [fulfilling God’s requirement for justice against sin and placating His wrath].
Living Bible
1 John 4:10 In this act we see what real love is: it is not our love for God but his love for us when he sent his Son to satisfy God’s anger against our sins.
Walpole
Member
Your version of God is quite distorted. It renders God out to be nothing more than a pagan volcano god, raging with pent up anger, hatred, rage, and wrath, only to be appeased by throwing the virgin damsel in distress into the volcano. Jesus plays the part of the damsel in distress and therefore becomes God's personal whipping boy.
A God who is so pent up with wrath that he must unleash it upon an innocent person is wicked.
A God who is so pent up with wrath that he must unleash it upon an innocent person is wicked.
Do you see then that there is a difference between God punishing Jesus for our sins, as you said, and Jesus giving His own life for our sin. I feel that it only pleased God that Jesus would go through what He did for the love Jesus has for everyone.
Then I will move past this and wish you a good day sir.
But again you fail to understand the whole point of why Jesus came.
2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
The words "to be" are added to the text. It literally reads "He made Him who knew no sin sin on our behalf.
He actually became sin, not a sinner, but sin itself.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of (struck down by) God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. (He himself was sinless)
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
Who was the Lord going to crush?
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us . . .
God made Jesus sin (He became the persona of sin) and He became a curse. It was the Man Jesus whom God poured out his wrath on.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
You have to remember that Jesus had two natures. The Diving Word and the flesh and blood body born of a woman. The Divine Word did not suffer or feel pain.
I like the Amplified Bible on this
Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since [these His] children share in flesh and blood [the physical nature of mankind], He Himself in a similar manner also shared in the same [physical nature, but without sin], so that through [experiencing] death He might make powerless (ineffective, impotent) him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—