Gods' Wrath

[jaybo]

That is basically what I have been trying to say. No mere human person could have bore what Jesus went through. It was more than just the physical pain of being crucified. I still believe the Bible implies that Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross.

Christian Standard Bible
Isaiah 53:6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for the iniquity of us all.

Contemporary English Version
6 All of us were like sheep
that had wandered off.
We had each gone our own way,
but the Lord gave him
the punishment we deserved.

What did we deserve? The wrath of God.

I agree with this 110%. That is the very basis of Christianity. Everyone is guilty of sin and deserve punishment. Because Jesus received the punishment for all sin, all sin is forgiven. All anyone has to do is believe that their sin was paid for on the cross and they are saved. It's not complicated!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That is basically what I have been trying to say. No mere human person could have bore what Jesus went through. It was more than just the physical pain of being crucified. I still believe the Bible implies that Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross.

Christian Standard Bible
Isaiah 53:6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for the iniquity of us all.

Contemporary English Version
6 All of us were like sheep
that had wandered off.
We had each gone our own way,
but the Lord gave him
the punishment we deserved.

What did we deserve? The wrath of God.

He's saying Christ didn't deserve to be judged by the law nor was he fairly.
I've said before, Gods' only begotten Son was punished only in a way all of Gods' sons are, for the purpose of correction. I've also shown how Jesus himself needed no correction, but submitted himself to it only as an example to us as we are formed into the image of our Father.

 

[Whatever]

I've said before, Gods' only begotten Son was punished only in a way all of Gods' sons are, for the purpose of correction. I've also shown how Jesus himself needed no correction, but submitted himself to it only as an example to us as we are formed into the image of our Father.

And that is not what the Bible teaches. See no sense in going on.

 

[Whatever]

Because Jesus received the punishment for all sin, all sin is forgiven. All anyone has to do is believe that their sin was paid for on the cross and they are saved. It's not complicated!

But this creates a problem, at least in my mind. What about those cannibals in the Amazon Jungle who never heard about Jesus and the cross? Do they go to heaven when they die? They can't be judged for rejecting a gospel they never heard about.

You get rid of this problem with Limited Atonement.

 

[Whatever]

Moral Influence theory of atonement

The Moral influence theory of the atonement is a doctrine in Christian theology related to the meaning and effect of the death of Jesus Christ. In this view, the purpose and result of Christ's death was to influence mankind toward moral improvement. This theory denies that Christ died to satisfy any principle of divine justice, but teaches instead that His death was designed to greatly impress mankind with a sense of God's love, resulting in softening their hearts and leading them to repentance. Thus, the Atonement is not directed towards God with the purpose of maintaining His justice, but towards man with the purpose of persuading him to right action.

Formulated by Peter Abelard (1079-1142) partially in reaction against Anselm’s Satisfaction theory, this view was held by the 16th century Socinians. Versions of it can be found later in Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834) and Horace Bushnell (1802-1876). It was largely taught in liberal Christian circles.

 

[eddif]

But this creates a problem, at least in my mind. What about those cannibals in the Amazon Jungle who never heard about Jesus and the cross? Do they go to heaven when they die? They can't be judged for rejecting a gospel they never heard about.

You get rid of this problem with Limited Atonement.

Romans 1:18 kjv
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

IMHO:
The cannibals see creation. That is enough for them to cry out for understanding. At that point a missionary / witness will come to them or they will find a witness.

Creation speaks.

I am sure a carnal mind can say yes, but what if?

I am probably the maverick that says Jesus on the cross is a day of the wrath of God. All the forgiveness of sins of mankind were poured out on Jesus. You can modify it slightly, but not totally. When the dark came, the earthquake happened, the veil
Is torn, and Jesus died: that is wrath poured out. Jesus had prayer that caused swear as drops if blood, to allow Him to do the will of the Father.

As a side note the thief on the cross probably took the offered drugs and did not physically suffer as much as Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Moral Influence theory of atonement

.....This theory denies that Christ died to satisfy any principle of divine justice, .....

This is where both you and the "moral influence theory" go off track, because
Divine justice forbids shedding innocent blood. Therefore justice, not mercy, will be served on the unrepentant,

So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” Mt.21:39-41

It's truly amazing how Jews back then understood the concept of justice, but couldn't understand Christs' mercy.
It's equally amazing how Christians mistake Gods' mercy for his justice.

 

[eddif]

This is where both you and the "moral influence theory" go off track, because
Divine justice forbids shedding innocent blood. Therefore justice, not mercy, will be served on the unrepentant,

So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” Mt.21:39-41

It's truly amazing how Jews back then understood the concept of justice, but couldn't understand Christs' mercy.
It's equally amazing how Christians mistake Gods' mercy for his justice.

Oh well. Seminary professors seem to miss the wrath of God poured on Jesus - being the grace that saves sinners who confess their sins and depend on the work of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 kjv
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Being a redneck, I do not actually know all the fancy seminary words. Words that probably come from Greek words in some cases. I have found out just switch seminaries and you may find one that supports your belief. Amazing how a denominal Greek course agrees with their thoughts.

The word became flesh
The man Jesus became a quickening spirit
If we open the door he can be in us.

Ceation’s hidden man of the heart gets the credit for our change to a heart of flesh.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh well. Seminary professors seem to miss the wrath of God poured on Jesus - being the grace that saves sinners who confess their sins and depend on the work of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 kjv
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Being a redneck, I do not actually know all the fancy seminary words. Words that probably come from Greek words in some cases. I have found out just switch seminaries and you may find one that supports your belief. Amazing how a denominal Greek course agrees with their thoughts.

The word became flesh
The man Jesus became a quickening spirit
If we open the door he can be in us.

Ceation’s hidden man of the heart gets the credit for our change to a heart of flesh.

eddif

God didn’t pour out his wrath on Jesus. No bible verse says he did. Wrath was not what he felt.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Oh well. Seminary professors seem to miss the wrath of God poured on Jesus - being the grace that saves sinners who confess their sins and depend on the work of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

Actually, theologians seem to miss the wrath of men poured on Jesus - and Jesus not frying them to ashes - being the grace that saves sinners who confess their sins - against him, the shameful way he was mistreated - and depend on the work of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins - which is to say, he will forgive anyone who is truly sorry for sinning against him.

Hebrews 9:22 kjv
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Being a redneck, I do not actually know all the fancy seminary words. Words that probably come from Greek words in some cases. I have found out just switch seminaries and you may find one that supports your belief. Amazing how a denominal Greek course agrees with their thoughts.

The word became flesh
The man Jesus became a quickening spirit
If we open the door he can be in us.

Ceation’s hidden man of the heart gets the credit for our change to a heart of flesh.

eddif

Yes, from his own view, the shedding of blood proves he gave his life for the gospel, which is that God will forgive anyone repentant for sin against him and his Son.

 

[eddif]

Yes, from his own view, the shedding of blood proves he gave his life for the gospel, which is that God will forgive anyone repentant for sin against him and his Son.

Can we look at repentance?
John the Baptist taught / had a baptism of repentance.
Repentance is conviction of our sin.
Repentance is the way to salvation, but it is not salvation. Repentance leaves us wondering what must I do to be saved. John the Baptist said believe in the one who comes after me. I spent 12 years in John’s baptism. Not saved but repenting over and over.

There is one name under heaven we can be saved by. Salvation is by believing in Jesus.

To share the salvation message with others we need the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul asked what baptism are you baptized into. The answer was John’s baptism.

Do I need to supply scriptures?

eddif

 

[Whatever]

Divine justice forbids shedding innocent blood.

Except unless God Himself in the person of His Son volunteers to take the place of guilty persons and sheds His blood in their place.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, . . .

I would think only a brainwashed person could not see what it is saying.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Can we look at repentance?
John the Baptist taught / had a baptism of repentance.
Repentance is conviction of our sin.

Yes. Thus my point. What was done to Jesus was sinful.

Repentance is the way to salvation, but it is not salvation. Repentance leaves us wondering what must I do to be saved. John the Baptist said believe in the one who comes after me. I spent 12 years in John’s baptism. Not saved but repenting over and over.

There is one name under heaven we can be saved by. Salvation is by believing in Jesus.

To share the salvation message with others we need the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul asked what baptism are you baptized into. The answer was John’s baptism.

Do I need to supply scriptures?

No. I know the passages you're referring to very well.
I spent a lot of time repenting over and over too, until I understood how my sin is no different than the sin of crucifying Jesus.

 

[Whatever]

The cannibals see creation. That is enough for them to cry out for understanding. At that point a missionary / witness will come to them or they will find a witness.

Really?
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

You really think that a thousand years ago, a missionary showed up deep in the impenetrable Amazon jungle to preach to somebody there? Same thing with the Aborigines in Australia. The only way that would have happened would be that the Lord just supernaturally put somebody there.

 

[eddif]

Really?
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

You really think that a thousand years ago, a missionary showed up deep in the impenetrable Amazon jungle to preach to somebody there? Same thing with the Aborigines in Australia. The only way that would have happened would be that the Lord just supernaturally put somebody there.

LOL
Acts 16:9 kjv
9. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

I don’t think he was requesting a tent maker.

eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Except unless God Himself in the person of His Son volunteers to take the place of guilty persons and sheds His blood in their place.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, . . .

I would think only a brainwashed person could not see what it is saying.

Yes, I was brainwashed for a long time. Being made sin for us is the same as saying,

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13

He means our Lord appeared cursed for committing a sin wirthy of death. Please see Deu.21:22-23. That's the passage Paul is citing he expected his audience to understand that according to the law, a man who has done nothing worthy of death should not be thought of as cursed in a true sense.

 

[eddif]

Yes, I was brainwashed for a long time. Being made sin for us is the same as saying,

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13

He means our Lord appeared cursed for committing a sin wirthy of death. Please see Deu.21:22-23. That's the passage Paul is citing he expected his audience to understand that according to the law, a man who has done nothing worthy of death should not be thought of as cursed in a true sense.

Ok this is not death.
Job 2:3 kjv
3. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Satan had acquired permission to afflict Job’s flesh (which he did), but God looked at the situation as if He (God) had done harm to Job without cause (wrongly).
Good people sometimes suffer.

eddif

 

[Whatever]

He means our Lord appeared cursed for committing a sin wirthy of death. Please see Deu.21:22-23. That's the passage Paul is citing he expected his audience to understand that according to the law, a man who has done nothing worthy of death should not be thought of as cursed in a true sense.

Like I said, there is no reason to go on. You see stuff that is not there in the text.

Deuteronomy 21:22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Hanging as a method of execution is not mentioned in the Old Testament. The practice in view here is the exposure of the corpse of a criminal or an enemy (1 Sam. 31:10–13). Such gruesome exposure, symbolizing divine curse (v. 23), was not to be continued more than a day. This verse motivated the Pharisees’ request to have the body of Jesus taken off the cross before nightfall (John 19:31). The point of Gal. 3:13 is that Christ, though innocent, died a criminal’s death, taking the curse that we deserved (cf. Acts 5:30).

 

[Whatever]

9. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

I don’t think he was requesting a tent maker.

Yes, a vision. If a vision would have appeared to Paul of an Australian Aborigine saying "help us" how would have Paul even known how to get there?

You are mistaking a vision from God as an actual person making the request.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Ok this is not death.
Job 2:3 kjv
3. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Yes, satans' reason to move God "against" Job was for sinful purposes. God on the other hand meant it for Jobs' welfare.
And there is enough scripture to prove that when Job finally sees our God, he's seeing Christ as he suffered.

Satan had acquired permission to afflict Job’s flesh (which he did), but God looked at the situation as if He (God) had done harm to Job without cause (wrongly).

No. The text says the devil wanted God to destroy Job for no just cause. Instead, Job became stronger participating in the sufferings of Christ.

Good people sometimes suffer.

eddif

Very true. God suffers day and night and for a merciful reason.