Going to a prostitute

[Pizzaguy]

Shalom,

Let's say a person accepts Christ, but because of his sexual weakness he goes to a prostitute every now and then. Is he not saved, then? Will the acceptance of Christ work like magic and rid a person of sins, or will sin remain even after you're saved? The person in my example, a victim of sexual sin, what is his status? Is he going to lose his salvation because he's continuing in sin?

Elysian

Any guy here who has never visited a prostitute will tell you that he is not saved.
Any guy here who struggles with sexual sin will tell you something like, "If the guy is trying and really struggling, then God will forgive."

But if you read the responses in this thread, you already know what I just told you!

We all continue to sin. The sign of a changed heart is a changed life. Has this persons' heart and life changed? THAT is the question. I don't visit prostitutes, but since I have been single 46 of 51 years, you KNOW that sex has been an issue with me. So, am I saved? Only God and I know, and I will not speak for him.

But as I recount all of the times in my life that He has reached out to me, including May 22, 1994 - the night of my terrible sexual slip up, where He reached out to me when I was convinced that I'd lost my salvation forever - I lay here in bed KNOWING that I am saved. I need no Pastor or internet chat board to assure me of my salvation, God did that already. I do not wish to recount that event right now - but I know in my heart He was as forgiving that night as he was in 1977 when I first called on Him for salvation in the basement of a house in Jonesville, Michigan.

Christ went to the cross for all of your sins, and He did it way before you sinned, He then watched you sin until you called on Him - and he responded. Another sin or two is not going to "turn His love off". His love is perfect. It is not mechanical, it does not follow a formula, and certainly not a human formula.

But scripture makes it clear: there is no license to sin.

The fact that this bothers you tells you all you need to know.
A PM is on the way.

 

[Elysian]

Thanks, everyone. Given me a lot to think about.

 

[Mike]

Felix, are you saying we stop sinning when we are saved? It all ends when we truly accept Christ? Had Paul not done this when he penned Romans 7 and spoke if his struggle with sin. As Jason said, most of us admit that we can relate to Paul in his inner-conflict with particular sins.

But the key is, we struggle, we repent, ask for forgiveness, and try to overcome our temptations. If a person does not feel this conflict and is not convicted of his own disobedience, that might be another story. Paul asks (rhetorically) if we purposefully continue to sin so that Grace may abound, and his answer is "No!".

Someone who does this needs to examine his heart, but I could never tell him he isn't saved; just that it is critical that he goes to God in honest prayer about it. I don't know the depths of God's Wisdom and Mercy.

 

[jasoncran]

(Matt 7:18-22) "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor [can] a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

The struggle which you mention is the 'birth pains' for the 'new creation' to be 'born of God' or ('born of Spirit' as Christ mentioned) who cannot sin. As long as there is struggle with past sins, the person is NOT born again and NOT a new creation in Christ. This must not be confused with temptations. Only people who are born of Spirit can enter 'Kingdom of Heaven'.

Scripture instructs a high standard and strict requirements for entering into His Kingdom which is often overlooked by churches and not taught with importance esp, the requirement for being holy.

As per, Jesus's Own Words in Matt 7:18-22, only a good tree can produce good fruits. For those who have bad fruits and calling themselves as good trees and justifying themselves using the grace of God and worshiping Christ as Lord, Lord, as per Jesus's own words in Matt 7:23, He will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'.

I often wonder why people don't accept the strictest requirement of holiness for salvation and to entering His Kingdom even if it comes from Jesus Christ Himself who is going to judge the world. I could only compare them to the people mentioned in 2 Peter 2.

did i deny holiness? NO, only christ canmake us holy. go ahead and try to be holy.

here in americas past and the founding faith(a particulaiar demonation) were called puritans

these guys would kill sinners if they commited certians sins in their courts of law and have evidence

ie death for adultery, homosexuality, murder and all that

fines for the rest. yet these were also some of the most holy saints and also did teach grace as i see it. but they too also killed innocent indians. perscuted other christians who they felt were heretics, thus why rhode island, connecticut and one other were founded.

they also were involved in the salem witch trials. they would kill your daughters if they were married to more then one man and also a man who did the same.

i have learned that i aint so holy and so pure as i thought years ago.im often sadly just as bad as some sinners., that is all im saying.

grace has given the desire to want to change but no the power to change unless god does it. i wont stop sinning in this area. i hate when i do it but its frustrating.

legalist cant seem to get that at all. its about grace and mercy not being good enough. if i could change without gods help who then would get the glory? ME
but GOD doesnt work that way. He wants the GLORY.

 

[felix]

did i deny holiness? NO, only christ canmake us holy. go ahead and try to be holy.

here in americas past and the founding faith(a particulaiar demonation) were called puritans

these guys would kill sinners if they commited certians sins in their courts of law and have evidence

ie death for adultery, homosexuality, murder and all that

fines for the rest. yet these were also some of the most holy saints and also did teach grace as i see it. but they too also killed innocent indians. perscuted other christians who they felt were heretics, thus why rhode island, connecticut and one other were founded.

they also were involved in the salem witch trials. they would kill your daughters if they were married to more then one man and also a man who did the same.

i have learned that i aint so holy and so pure as i thought years ago.im often sadly just as bad as some sinners., that is all im saying.

grace has given the desire to want to change but no the power to change unless god does it. i wont stop sinning in this area. i hate when i do it but its frustrating.

legalist cant seem to get that at all. its about grace and mercy not being good enough. if i could change without gods help who then would get the glory? ME
but GOD doesnt work that way. He wants the GLORY.

The holiness that I mentioned was of God to be in us, not of puritans or anyone who called themselves or their approach as pure.

• (Eph 1:4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
• (Eph 5:27) that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
• (1Pet 1:15) but as He who called you [is] holy, you also be holy in all [your] conduct,
• (1Pet 1:16) because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."
• (Rev 22:11) "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

If only Christ can make us holy based on what you said, then, why is Scripture asking us to be holy?

 

[felix]

Felix, are you saying we stop sinning when we are saved? It all ends when we truly accept Christ? Had Paul not done this when he penned Romans 7 and spoke if his struggle with sin. As Jason said, most of us admit that we can relate to Paul in his inner-conflict with particular sins.

But the key is, we struggle, we repent, ask for forgiveness, and try to overcome our temptations. If a person does not feel this conflict and is not convicted of his own disobedience, that might be another story. Paul asks (rhetorically) if we purposefully continue to sin so that Grace may abound, and his answer is "No!".

Someone who does this needs to examine his heart, but I could never tell him he isn't saved; just that it is critical that he goes to God in honest prayer about it. I don't know the depths of God's Wisdom and Mercy.

When it comes to Salvation or about saved, it's a different story. I had doubts if a person has done all good throughout his entire life and said a small lie just before his death, where would he go? We know sin leads to death but what about his service to God all through his life? I ask God the same question to understand what is the requirement for receiving salvation in a more detailed manner. He answered me that every person who has the Holy Spirit is already saved. When a person dies in this world, because of the Holy Spirit within him, death does not overcome and he is transformed from death to everlasting life just as Christ overcame death and had victory over it.

Next, the question would obviously be, how can someone know that he has Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us that one of the important role of Holy Spirit is conviction of sin. This is the part where the struggle come to overcome our past sins. It is important to understand not all struggle is from the Holy Spirit. Even pagans have their own rules for holiness and they are also convicted for their wrong doings in their religions. But the conviction of Holy Spirit always leads to good fruits because God's seed is within him. This does not mean a person who has the Holy Spirit cannot sin nor if he sins cannot be saved, but with a person who has Holy Spirit, you can always see him becoming Christ like and see all the fruits of the Spirit in him. The problem here is many could claim to be having holy spirit and claim to be a new creation but in reality, they are not because the conviction is of their own based on a 'Christian religion' (just as people in other religions) rather than Holy Spirit and try to justify their sins and do it again and again involve themselves in sexual immorality and yet ask forgiveness which is a clear insult to the spirit of grace for which God says about a worse punishment. But a man truly with Holy Spirit will hate sin to it's core and will be unable to even think of sinning.

One of the things I learnt while struggling with sin is:
Don't Try, Trust God.

The difference is, if we try, we will anyway sin because, we are flesh and is sinful nature. But if we trust God, we immediately think of God, His glory and we cannot sin before Him in His presence and while praying. This way I was able to avoid many struggles that I had to face.

When temptation comes, I immediately say this simple prayer in my heart and I found it to be more successful in fighting temptations.
Lord, I am not trying to fight against sin, but trust You that you will keep me from sin.
I cannot imagine myself doing a sin while praying and will continue in prayer until the temptation is gone. Neither does any Christian can.

 

[jasoncran]

The holiness that I mentioned was of God to be in us, not of puritans or anyone who called themselves or their approach as pure.

• (Eph 1:4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
• (Eph 5:27) that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
• (1Pet 1:15) but as He who called you [is] holy, you also be holy in all [your] conduct,
• (1Pet 1:16) because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."
• (Rev 22:11) "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

If only Christ can make us holy based on what you said, then, why is Scripture asking us to be holy?

its because we have to allow christ to cleanse us. sometime for some reason it takes time. sin is disease and if a doctor in the case of cancer via chemotherapy hits too much areas the patient will die
case in point theres a verse where it says i will not remove all the enemies of you in on years lest the land consume you and the beasts over run.

sanitification is evidence of a change heart, you have it backwards.

no man is so holy that he wont sin. like i said ever tell a lie more then once?

if yes then you are just as damned as this man who has an issue with prostitution. this doesnt mean we can ignore or sin all we want, just that we cant on our OWN BE HOLY.

SO HOW DOES one be holy? repent and accept what the cross does and when you sin ask god to forgive you and GIVE YOU STRENGHT NOT TO SIN THAT SIN AGAIN.

let me ask you this can you become so holy and pure that you need not repent as you are perfect?

 

[Sparkey]

Shalom,

Let's say a person accepts Christ, but because of his sexual weakness he goes to a prostitute every now and then. Is he not saved, then? Will the acceptance of Christ work like magic and rid a person of sins, or will sin remain even after you're saved? The person in my example, a victim of sexual sin, what is his status? Is he going to lose his salvation because he's continuing in sin?

Elysian

Saved from what, exactly? Saved from sin? Released from the bondage of sin? Or "saved" in the sense that it's okay for him to continue in sin? We don't have enough information to be able to judge but in the hypothetical situation where somebody pretends that he/she is saved so that they can put on a filthy rag (a lie) to cover their shame...

What was the question again?

 

[felix]

its because we have to allow christ to cleanse us. sometime for some reason it takes time. sin is disease and if a doctor in the case of cancer via chemotherapy hits too much areas the patient will die
case in point theres a verse where it says i will not remove all the enemies of you in on years lest the land consume you and the beasts over run.

sanitification is evidence of a change heart, you have it backwards.

Why do you think the doctor is going to hit too much areas for the patient to die? I don't think that's a right comparison. May be the patient who is a sinner didn't follow the medications by our great Physician, Jesus Christ correctly. Just because the patient goes to a doctor does not mean he is going to get healed. It simply means, there is only hope of getting healed. The process of getting healed will only occur if the patient followed the prescriptions correctly. In the same way, being a Christian means we have access to Christ who is ready to forgive and heal our sins. Only if we follow His commandments, we are going to be saved.

no man is so holy that he wont sin. like i said ever tell a lie more then once?

You shouldn't be comparing anyone and questioning the work of God and the Scriptures.

(1John 3:9) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Do you believe 1 John 3:9 is inspired by God? It is indeed a tough teaching - already told by His disciples 2000 yrs back.

if yes then you are just as damned as this man who has an issue with prostitution. this doesnt mean we can ignore or sin all we want, just that we cant on our OWN BE HOLY.

You again doubt God's command to be holy.
(1Pet 1:16) because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

(Luke 13:24) "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Will God make you enter? Nope.
Does all who seek to enter, will enter it? Nope.

How then do you think, God is going to somehow push you into that narrow gate and God is going to honor your sincere interest in entering the narrow gate?

SO HOW DOES one be holy? repent and accept what the cross does and when you sin ask god to forgive you and GIVE YOU STRENGHT NOT TO SIN THAT SIN AGAIN.

Holiness is not something,
repent -> accept -> sin -> crucify Christ -> repent cycle.

It is a passion to hate sin to it's core. You will even go to the extent of what is said in Matt 19:12 to hate sin and the sinful nature of your own self. As Sparrowhawke pointed out, how can you consider yourself to be saved when you just wearing rugs and not wearing the wedding garment as in Matt 22:11?

let me ask you this can you become so holy and pure that you need not repent as you are perfect?

Yes! If I become so holy and pure, I need not repent. What should I repent for?

(Luke 15:7) "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

99 did not require any repentance - told by Jesus Himself.

 

[felix]

Saved from what, exactly? Saved from sin? Released from the bondage of sin? Or "saved" in the sense that it's okay for him to continue in sin? We don't have enough information to be able to judge but in the hypothetical situation where somebody pretends that he/she is saved so that they can put on a filthy rag (a lie) to cover their shame...

What was the question again?

Well said!