Good Friday

[Webers_Home]

Good Friday (16)

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Objection : Only Jesus' soul resurrected, not his body.

That crazy objection assumes that the Lord's soul died on the cross. It didn't. The only part of Christ that died that day was his body. The Lord predicted that both he and the man who died alongside him would be in the paradise section of hades that very day (Luke 23:43, Acts 2:29-31) which tells me that while the Lord's body was a corpse, he himself was kicking back somewhere with a Piña Collada (so to speak).

A soul resurrection doesn't fit the criteria of the common New Testament demonstration. In every case where the Lord and/or the apostles raised people from the dead, with no exceptions, it was visible and it was bodily rather than ghostly. It would be thoroughly inconsistent, not to mention downright confusing, for the Lord's resurrection to be the one lone exception.

Objection : Peter said Jesus was raised to life as a spirit. "Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit." (1Pet 3:18)

I'm going to deliberately misquote a portion of that passage. Watch for the revision.

"He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life as a spirit."

Catch the error? No, the Lord wasn't raised to life as a spirit, nor was he raised to life in spirit. He was raised to life in the Spirit, which means the Lord didn't come back as a mortal man who might die again some day; but rather as an immortal man; a man who would never again die.

†. Rom 6:9 . . For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

Where are all the people that the Lord resurrected during his three-year ministry? Answer : they're all deceased because they weren't brought back in the Spirit, but rather, they were brought back in the man Adam; in whom all die because no one in the man Adam has immortality.

†. 1Cor 15:22 . . In Adam all die

The Lord's sheep will themselves undergo a resurrection in the Spirit.

†. Rom 8:11 . .And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His spirit, who lives in you.

While they're waiting to be resurrected in the Spirit, the Lord's people are supposed to be praying in the Spirit (Jude 1:20) and walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) and living in the Spirit. (Gal 5:25)

Anyway; the Lord clearly predicted the revival of his physical human body.

†. John 2:19-22 . .Jesus answered and said unto them : Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews : Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

The Lord testified that his revived body was constructed, not of spirit material, but of organic tissues— flesh and bones.

†. Luke 24:37-39 . .But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

FAQ : If the Lord revived as a spirit, then what happened to the corpse?

Now that is a pertinent question. You see, if his corpse didn't revive, then it should have still been inside the tomb on resurrection morning when the Lord's friends looked inside. And if the Lord's corpse didn't revive, then it should have eventually decayed, but according to Peter, it didn't. (Acts 2:25-27)

In addition; a couple of celestial beings informed the women that the body they were looking for wasn't in the tomb as they expected simply because it was no longer dead.

†. Luke 24:1-5 . . On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground; but the men said to them : Why do you look for the living among the dead?

If opponents of a physical resurrection are going to continue insisting that the Lord's body didn't revive, then they are going to have to produce a corpus delicti in order to make a sensible case for themselves or be thoroughly laughed out of court.

The WatchTower Society claims God cached the Lord's body somewhere on the earth because it wouldn't make sense to remove the sacrifice from off the Altar— the earth being the altar (a notion they got right out of thin air and a fertile imagination). But sacrifices don't have to stay dead, they only have to die; at least once; nor do sacrifices have to stay on the Altar. Portions of Old Testament sacrifices ended up on the Levites' plates as food for themselves and their families; which is their God-given heritage.

But it needs to be pointed out that Christ's crucifixion was not an Old Testament sacrifice— no; he's a priest of the order of Melchizedek, not of Aaron's (Ps 110:4, Heb 5:4-6, Heb 6:18-20, Heb 7:11) so he wouldn't be subject to the rules and regulations of Aaron's sacrificial system anyway even if they did have to stay on the Altar.

Continued > >
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[Mike]

Webers_Home,

I believe this thread is in the wrong forum. The Bible Study Forum is intended to be a mutual discussion on the Word; not a blog. There were responses being offered which you seemed to overlook. I'd like to ensure that you are not copy/pasting this thread, and that you are willing to engage with members who seek to discuss it. I'll need to move this if you are not looking for a discussion.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Webers_Home,

I believe this thread is in the wrong forum. The Bible Study Forum is intended to be a mutual discussion on the Word; not a blog. There were responses being offered which you seemed to overlook. I'd like to ensure that you are not copy/pasting this thread, and that you are willing to engage with members who seek to discuss it. I'll need to move this if you are not looking for a discussion.

Could it be that there has been no response because it is the truth? I don't see much here to debate or discuss about, as it all seems to be truthful. I am very thankful for this thread, as I have learned a lot.

 

[Webers_Home]

Could it be that there has been no response because it is the truth? I don't see much here to debate or discuss about, as it all seems to be truthful. I am very thankful for this thread, as I have learned a lot.

As you correctly assessed; I haven't been shooting from the lip. The posts you've been reading are the result of several years of study and research, and of debates and discussions with both Jews and Christians on internet forums and message boards. Everything posted so far has been put through the ringer for errors and mistakes many, many times over by some very hostile opponents and none yet has been able to successfully refute the data.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Theofilus]

Could it be that there has been no response because it is the truth? I don't see much here to debate or discuss about, as it all seems to be truthful. I am very thankful for this thread, as I have learned a lot.

Or it could be that people are just bored with it. Taking multiple pages of long posts to explain how to count to three is ridicuous.

 

[Mike]

I don't want to take away from this thread, or any of WH's, so we shouldn't spend a lot of time discussing this aspect of it here. This thread and others are good, but they are not in keeping with a Bible Study. I will be getting back to him with a forum better suited for them. Here in the Bible Study Forum, members discuss Bible study topics. They give and take in cooperation to come to an understanding of the topic at hand.

Thanks.

 

[Webers_Home]

Or it could be that people are just bored with it. Taking multiple pages of long posts to explain how to count to three is ridicuous.

The trick is; you have to count to three twice :

(1) Three Days

(2) Three Nights

If you already know where to locate those three days and three nights; then of course this topic is below you. However, not everyone on the internet is as well-informed as you are. You might consider cutting them a break.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Theofilus]

The trick is; you have to count to three twice :

(1) Three Days

(2) Three Nights

If you already know where to locate those three days and three nights; then of course this topic is below you. However, not everyone on the internet is as well-informed as you are. You might consider cutting them a break.

C.L.I.F.F.
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The thing is, that most of what you're saying has nothing to do with locating those three days and nights. I can be interesting to examin, for example, whether the women in one Gospel are the same as in another, but it isn't necessary to know to be able to count to three.

This is really simple. All you have to do is answer two questions:

1. Do we start counting from the time Jesus died, or from the time he was buried?
2. Do we count partial days as full days and, if so, how large a part of the day has to pass before we call it a day?

Once you answer those two questions, it becomes a simple matter of counting backwards three days and three nights from the time the women came to the tomb and found it empty. All the rest of what you're saying may be interesting, but you don't need it to be able to count to three. Here's the way I count it:

First of all, I agree with what you said about counting from the time Jesus was buried, rather than the time of his death. I believe that to be counted as a whole day, a significant part of the day would have to pass. A few minutes or an hour is not enough to count as a whole day. Since Jesus was in the grave for at most half an hour to an hour on the day of his crucifixion, and an even shorter time passed from sunrise until the women came, neither day can be counted as one of the days he was in the grave. So, counting backward from Sunday morning, when the women arrived, we get:

Saturday night
Saturday day
Friday night
Friday day
Thursday night
Thursday day.

Since, as I said earlier, it is not logical to count the day of the crucifixion as a whole day, that rules out a thursday crucifixion. Jesus must have been crucified on Wednesday, which gives the three days and nights as:

Wednesday night
Thursday day
Thursday night
Friday day
Friday night
Saturday day

The resurrection would then have been on Saturday, just before sunset. Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, and rose on the third day, just before it ended.

See, I did it in one post. No need to make it complicated. Now watch this:

If we count from the time Jesus died, then there were about 3-4 hours before sunset. (I say 3-4 because "the ninth hour" isn't an exact time, like 3 PM, but rather a whole hour - from about 2-3 pm). This would be a significant enough amount of time to call the crucifixion day a whole day, if we wanted to. Counting as above, this would lead to a thursday crucifixion and a resurrection on early Sunday morning, just before sunrise.

There you have both possibilities in one post. This is why people stopped commenting. Although they may differe on the outcome, everyone can see how simple the calculations are, and you are making this way too complicated.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

How does the Day of Preparation (when the Passover lambs were selected) and the 4 days of observation of the lambs (in the home) fit the time line for a Thursday burial?
Do we know that Jesus rode the donkey (triumphal entry) into Jerusalem on Preparation Day? If so, then he came as the selected One, and would spend the next four days before the religious leaders in Jerusalem for inspection. Would those four days rule out or justify a Thursday burial?

 

[Theofilus]

How does the Day of Preparation (when the Passover lambs were selected) and the 4 days of observation of the lambs (in the home) fit the time line for a Thursday burial?
Do we know that Jesus rode the donkey (triumphal entry) into Jerusalem on Preparation Day? If so, then he came as the selected One, and would spend the next four days before the religious leaders in Jerusalem for inspection. Would those four days rule out or justify a Thursday burial?

The day the lambs were selected, the tenth day of the first month, isn't called a Preparation. That was the day Jesus was crucified on, which was the 14th of the month, the day the lambs were sacrificed. If the crucifixion was on a Thursday, then the tenth would have been on the previous Sunday. If the crucifixion was on a Wednesday, then Jesus would have ridden into Jerusalem on a Saturday.

The Preparation mentioned as the day Jesus was crucified wasn't the weekly Preparation for the Sabbath (i.e. Friday), but rather the Preparation for the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was the 15th day of the first month, and was a Sabbath no matter what weekday it was.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

If the crucifixion was on a Thursday, then the tenth would have been on the previous Sunday. If the crucifixion was on a Wednesday, then Jesus would have ridden into Jerusalem on a Saturday.

So you are saying that Jesus was in fact crucified and buried on Thursday because he rode into Jerusalem on Sunday (what we call Palm Sunday)? And that He could not have been crucified and buried on Wednesday because He would have had to ride in on Saturday (a Sabbath)?

 

[Theofilus]

So you are saying that Jesus was in fact crucified and buried on Thursday because he rode into Jerusalem on Sunday (what we call Palm Sunday)? And that He could not have been crucified and buried on Wednesday because He would have had to ride in on Saturday (a Sabbath)?

No. I believe that he was crucified on a Wednesday, and rode into Jerusalem on a Saturday. I just mentioned both possiblities, because some people believe the crucifixion was on a Thrusday.

 

[Webers_Home]

Good Friday (17)

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FAQ : Why didn't the Lord return to Jerusalem and show everybody that he was back from death? That would have gone a long ways towards convincing the religious leaders that he was their long-awaited Messiah.

Answer : It was too late for that. They had their chance, and blew it.

†. John 12:35-40 . .Then Jesus told them :You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light. When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

. . . Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This fulfilled the word of Isaiah the prophet : Yhvh; who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of Yhvh been revealed? (Isa 53:1)

. . . For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor repent— and I would heal them. (Isa 6:8-10)

Returning to Jerusalem would have been only throwing good money after bad; for example :

†. Luke 16:27-31 . . He answered : Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied; They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them. No, father Abraham; he said; but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him; If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

Many of the Jewish religious leaders in the Israel of that day were somehow convinced that Christ was a cultist— an agent of the Devil (Mtt 12:24). Others thought him possessed (John 8:48, John 10:20). And even his own kin thought he was a man gone mad (Mrk 3:21). So then, his coming back from the dead would no doubt have been brushed aside as yet one more illusion calculated to lead the masses astray.

FYI : It happens all the time that people miss their opportunities and go past the point of no return.

†. Heb 3:15-19 . . While it is said : Today if ye will hear his voice, stiffen not your resolve as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke : however not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? And to whom swore He that they should not enter into His rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

†. Rev 22:10-11 . . And he said to me : Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.

Continued > >
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[Proverbs3/5]

No. I believe that he was crucified on a Wednesday, and rode into Jerusalem on a Saturday. I just mentioned both possiblities, because some people believe the crucifixion was on a Thrusday.

If Jesus rode in on Saturday (a Sabbath), then would not the Jews be working on a Sabbath by cutting and placing palm branches (Matt. 21:8) in the path of Jesus riding the donkey? Would not the Jews be at home or at the temple?

 

[Webers_Home]

I believe that to be counted as a whole day, a significant part of the day would have to pass. A few minutes or an hour is not enough to count as a whole day. Since Jesus was in the grave for at most half an hour to an hour on the day of his crucifixion, and an even shorter time passed from sunrise until the women came, neither day can be counted as one of the days he was in the grave.

Sunday morning has to be counted as the third day because the data confirms that the Lord revived on the first day of the week rather than the seventh.

†. Mark 16:9 . . Now when Jesus rose early on the first day of the week

FYI : Mrk 16:9-20 isn't in the two oldest manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus; but the passage is quoted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus in the second or third century. Since the original gospels no longer exist, it's impossible to know for proof positive whether Mrk 16:9 belongs in the New Testament or should be excluded.

Personally; I'm okay with Mrk 16:9-20 being in the New Testament. IMO just because a manuscript is older than some others doesn't necessarily make it any more reliable than ones that were produced after it. The label "the better manuscripts" that scholars tag on the oldest existing manuscripts is an arbitrary opinion rather than a provable reality.

FAQ : If we're supposed to count Sunday morning as a day in the tomb, then why not crucifixion afternoon too?

You know how it's said to hide something right out in plain sight and nobody will find it? Well, the solution to this dilemma is so well hidden right out in plain sight that everybody— and I mean everybody, even people with ThD degrees —at one time or another in their lives walk right past without seeing it.

Answer : the Lord's cross owned crucifixion day.

If you're a Star Wars fan, you're familiar with the advice C3PO gave R2D2 during a holographic chess game with Chewy; which went like this : Let the Wookie win one.

Well, this is one of those times to let the Wookie win one; viz : let the cross have crucifixion day all to itself— leave that day alone and don't start your countdown till after the sun sets upon Golgotha. Put another way : the Lord's cross owned crucifixion day, while the Lord's resurrection owned the grave, and neither shared either a day or a night with the other.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Theofilus]

If Jesus rode in on Saturday (a Sabbath), then would not the Jews be working on a Sabbath by cutting and placing palm branches (Matt. 21:8) in the path of Jesus riding the donkey?

According to the Pharisees they would have, but we know that Jesus differed with them as to the definition of work that was not allowed on the Sabbath. For example, The Pharisees claimed that it was work to heal someone on the Sabbath, and therefore was not permissible. Jesus did anyway. Not because he violated the Sabbath, but because the Pharisees got the definition wrong. It was obviously not "work" to break branches on the Sabbath. If it was, Jesus would have objected to it.

Would not the Jews be at home or at the temple?

Many would have been at home. Depending on the time of day, some could have been in they synagogue. I expect many of them would have dropped whatever they were doing to go out to see Jesus, though, when they heard he was coming.

 

[Theofilus]

Sunday morning has to be counted as the third day because the data confirms that the Lord revived on the first day of the week rather than the seventh.

Complete nonsense! However you interpret it, it is clear that the time from sunrise until the women came was shorter than the time from Jesus' burial until sunset, and much shorter than the time from his death until sunset. It is completely illogical to count Sunday and not the crucifixion day. Saying that Sunday counts, but not the crucifixion day, requires the same kind of "logic" that people use to support a Friday crucifixion. You count a tiny fraction of a day as a whole day. In fact, your way is even more illogical. At leas the Friday crucifixion scenario is consistant, in that it applies the same "logic" to both days.

 

[xounstaer]

yall mean BAD friday, right? right??2

 

[Webers_Home]

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Sunday morning has to be counted as the third day because the data confirms that the Lord revived on the first day of the week rather than the seventh.

†. Mark 16:9 . . Now when Jesus rose early on the first day of the week.

Complete nonsense!

Mark might be nonsense to you but it isn't to me since no one yet has been able to conclusively prove 16:9 is an error.

It is completely illogical to count Sunday and not the crucifixion day.

It is even more illogical to deny the accuracy of Mark 16:9. And I'll tell you right now that if you refuse to permit the Lord's cross to own crucifixion day all to itself; then I can easily guarantee that you'll never come up with the correct chronology.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Webers_Home]

yall mean BAD friday, right? right??

From a humanistic perspective, the Lord's crucifixion was a bad day; a very bad day indeed. But from the Christian perspective, it was an incredible piece of good fortune. Let me explain.

Webster's defines a proxy as : the agency, function, or office of a deputy who acts as a substitute for another.

In other words; a proxy is someone who stands in for you in your place; like a pinch hitter.

That's precisely how the crucifixion works. It was a proxy event. It's all the same as if I was nailed up on that cross myself receiving retribution for violating God's law. Christ is the whipping boy for every sin I will ever commit, even for the ones I haven't even done yet; including the psyche within me that incubates those sins: the whole and entire *me* that I am.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

†. Rom 6:6 . . Our old self was crucified with him

†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

There's more :

You're probably old enough to understand the concept of double jeopardy; but just in case there are curious young people looking in; I'll explain.

Webster's defines double jeopardy as: the putting of a person on trial for an offense for which they have previously been put on trial under a valid charge; viz : two adjudications for one offense. In simpler terms it just means you can't be hauled into court to be tried and punished for the same criminal incident more than once; and it makes no difference whether you were convicted or acquitted. (a hung jury or a mistrial is another story)

Now, with that concept in mind; just imagine if your entire life's work of sins, plus the psyche within you that incubates those sins— viz: the whole and entire *you* that you are —were to be hauled into court, tried, convicted, and thoroughly and satisfactorily punished. According to the principle of double jeopardy, the whole and entire *you* that you are, once tried, convicted, and thoroughly and satisfactorily punished once; can't be tried, convicted, and thoroughly and satisfactorily punished a second time.

And that's why I cannot possibly go to Hell; and it's why not even God Himself make me go there now. Christ became the whole and entire *me* that I am on Calvary; and fully, and thoroughly, and satisfactorily satisfied justice in my place so that I could have immunity from the wrath of God.

In a nutshell : if you were to designate the Lord as your scapegoat to face the judgment of God for you in your place; then you would escape it entirely unscathed.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

C.L.I.F.F.
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