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Good Works that insult the Cross.

So many people
so many people
You've been saying for years that so may people think they can depart the faith and still be justified by the faith they no longer have.
Who are these people?
I've never met one.
Have you?
Or did you read about it out of one of your best sellers?


Here is what the Holy Spirit warned us about, concerning the latter times:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


Here is an example of this happening: http://www.ex-christian.net/


http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72416-no-longer-a-beautiful-daughter-of-god/#.V3fYVLgrKUk

I'm only eighteen years old, but I promise the world I didn't just "fall away" in a stage of teenage rebellion. No, it was intellectual, because my heart still loves a nonexistent god and yearns to find its place in the church. Still, I fell away nonetheless.

I grew up in a tiny Presbyterian church, part of the PCA rather than the more liberal PCUSA. We breathed Calvinist doctrine and flaunted our theological knowledge everywhere we went. We didn't have any dress codes other than "don't cause men to stumble with those shorts," we didn't have any crazy odd family behaviors that were required of us. Instead, the abuse, manipulation and brainwashing was hidden. First, it was hidden in the basement of the church, where Sunday School was taught in a style very similar to that of The Good News Club. Full of shame, I remember clearly the horrific story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, told to me when I was three. I remember my mom consulting a nine-year-old's mother to ask permission to teach about the rape of Dinah in the Old Testament. Two stories upstairs, the adults spoke of authority and submission quite frequently, as well as predestination and other Calvinist teachings. Since we were on a hill, the middle story was our ground floor and sanctuary. I colored quietly during the sermons, as I was required to listen no matter my age. I remember hearing many strange things that come back to me in blurry droves. I often felt afraid at that church, and everyone creeped me out. At home, my parents frequently read the Bible--lunch, dinner, bedtime. My father loved using it to make us obey. I remember one time when my brother wouldn't listen to him, he pulled out Proverbs 30:17, and told my brother, "if you don't obey, the ravens will peck your eyes out." My brother wouldn't step outside for the next 24 hours for fear of birds swooping down and killing him. This was the environment in which we grew up in. There was love and nurture from our mother, but she did not protect us from our father, and she enabled him greatly. I was homeschooled, only taught Creationism. I was never in sex ed. I was only allowed to read certain books. My mom parented me like one would parent a young child, only when I grew up, she didn't loosen her grip; she tightened it.

When I was fifteen years old, my parents separated (my dad was emotionally and verbally abusive, though the word "abuse" wasn't used) and my mom, brother and I began attending a local foursquare church that also had a Reformed/Calvinist background, though not as apparent. Even more insidious.

This was when I began to recall dozens of repressed memories of my father sexually abusing me and physically abusing my brother. I confided in my mentor at the church, and she actually believed me (big surprise, due to church history!). It was wonderful. I was set up with the church counselor, and all was well for about a year. I grew a lot, and learned a lot, though I was merely becoming more and more brainwashed, believing that God was healing me.

But things started to get weird. My PTSD plateaued and my mother chomped down on the bit and became extremely oppressive and controlling. The counselor told me that the reason I wasn't healing was because I had sin issues: I needed to submit to my mother, despite the fact that she was making choices such as locking me in the house alone for a week and taking my phone, as a consequence for yelling and disagreeing with her doctrine because it triggered me. Instead of being nurtured and comforted, I was shut down and triggered so horribly that, one time, I ended up hitting my mom. She called the police and they arrested me, which was very traumatic.


It was then that my church counselor refused to continue working with me, due to my "rebellion." She didn't address me specifically; she texted my mom. I began seeing a professional therapist who specializes in EMDR. She has been my guide and mentor for over a year now. When I started working with her, I stopped going to church. She didn't tell me to submit to my mom, but to follow my own faith. At this point, I was very into the "only grace" religious doctrine, which my mom deemed cultish and she began sneaking onto my computer and monitoring my activities, banning me from going to church or Bible studies with my friend if I didn't go to her guilt-hammering church.

I had come to the conclusion that, in accordance with the teachings of my mom's church, my sexual abuse was my fault. “God has a plan for you,” “God meant this for good,” “your suffering will end; you are like Job!” “Call out to Jesus! He meant for this to shape you into the person you’re meant to be…”

I spun it around and around in my mind: in accordance with the church doctrine that God ordains and predestines each person’s life, if my abuse was meant to make me the “beautiful daughter of God” I was, then doesn’t that mean that God didn’t just allow but meant for me to be a victim of incest?

“No, of course not!” they would tell me as they drifted off into their typical method of circular reasoning.

This was the last straw of my relationship with that church, and the Church in general. I was not a victim of my father; I was a victim of God.

I left even my grace-focused religious doctrine when my fellowship group did not accept me as bisexual. I just all-out stopped going.

Now, I live in a new town, and I have only recently realized how truly damaged I am from my upbringing. I recently got an STI and instead of nurturing me, my mother told me that the antibiotics wouldn't work, and I got triggered and believed for two days that I was going to die and go to hell for my sin of premarital sex. I have come to the conclusion that though I was severely sexually abused by three different people, including my father, the majority of my pain and PTSD comes from the religious trauma that I have undergone. I am here now, because I need resources, and I feel very alone. I feel broken, and I don't know what it will take to fix me again. I try to read articles about atheism but I am hammered with internal biases and I can't seem to understand anything about evolution, since it was never taught to me. Though I am doing great in my new life as an adult, learning things I never knew and doing things I was never taught, I am still barely keeping my head above water.

I am no longer a "Beautiful Daughter of God." All my resources are gone; everyone in my life has left me. My mother is emotionally abusive and won't stop badgering me for leaving the church. She prays for the destruction of the only healthy romantic relationship I've ever had, and hates my partner. My friends shunned me months ago, and I am only just beginning to rebuild.

There is hope, of course, and that is why I'm here. I am stronger than I've ever been, and I have found that I can do so much alone, by my own strength. It isn't God. It isn't other people. I'm a survivor and a fighter, and now it is my time to gather resources and learn what it means to heal from the bonds of religion. I am finally free!

If you have any resources that have helped you or those you know, please send them along. And to those going through this as I do, hey, you know you're not alone! We can do this!




JLB
 
Here is what the Holy Spirit warned us about, concerning the latter times:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


Here is an example of this happening: http://www.ex-christian.net/







JLB
So you don't know any real people either.
I didn't think so.
 
So many people
so many people
You've been saying for years that so may people think they can depart the faith and still be justified by the faith they no longer have.
Who are these people?
I've never met one.
Have you?
Or did you read about it out of one of your best sellers?
You, along with so many others, remain completely silent when this false hyper-grace doctrine rises up that says believers can stop believing and they are still saved. And the only time you do chime in is to add the occasional 'amen' to the argument that you can not lose your salvation. And I'm supposed to believe you do believe ongoing faith is the condition for salvation?

It's interesting how few Christians are willing to honestly acknowledge the very clear passages that state the condition of an ongoing faith for being saved:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

And they won't make a peep when someone comes along and says you do not have to believe to the very end to be saved in the end.
 
[deleted post]
[reference to deleted post]

Come on, join hands with me and start challenging those who say you do not have to continue to believe in order to be saved.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
 
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So,man who repents, then denies the very existence of Jesus, becomes gay is still saved?

Out of the mouth cometh the abundance of the heart.If the heart is redeemed it will show.I'm not talking perfection or a struggle against a sin but a general and noticeable difference towards the sin in the world.
 
So you don't know any real people either.
I didn't think so.

So the girl in the testimony I posted, and all of the people on that site, are "not real"?


JLB
 
So many people
so many people
You've been saying for years that so may people think they can depart the faith and still be justified by the faith they no longer have.
Who are these people?
I've never met one.

Have you?
Or did you read about it out of one of your best sellers?

Indeed. I've pointed out the frailties of that claim many times. Have "believers" who departed the old orthodox faith club really departed the faith? No. They departed a religious sect and nothing more than that.

What is the difference between departing the faith and leaving a religious club? Departing a religious club is assuredly not departing the faith.

Paul wrote quite a long and extensive teaching on the difference between law and grace in Galatians where he identified "how" faith works/operates:

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

It would appear to me, quite obviously so, that to depart "faith" one would have to stop loving. I really doubt that can happen myself, let alone be proven by some other person.

Is it possible to love Jesus and leave a religious sect? I'd say it's been successfully done thousands of times by other religious sects that still love Jesus. And I'd also wager that a lot of believers are just not all that interested in belonging to religious clubs.
 
Stop trusting in faith to save you, and start Trusting in God who Saved you.
with out faith it is impossible to please God Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. our works follow salvation baptism is a act of faith a type work save by grace through faith . in fact every thing we do in Church is work related .salvation first works 2nd
 
At the baseline of every sect who claims believers can be lost is their stance on the effectiveness of the Work of Chris't cross.

Did Jesus "take away" sins from the accounting of believers or not?

IF some believers believe this not to be the case, then they will veer quite afar off.

What did the Apostles teach?

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins
, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Some will go on then to say/claim that unbelief is not covered. But, the real difficulty, scripturally, is that unbelief is also a sin.

John 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Scripture also shows us that the unbelief of believers will NOT result in eternal damnation, specifically with Moses being used as an example. Moses died without entering the promised land because of unbelief.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

This unbelief of both of these men resulted in their death prior to the entrance of Israel into the promised land.

Yet MOSES shows up on the Mt. of transfiguration with Jesus. Did the unbelief of Moses keep Moses from being saved? Assuredly NOT.

The identical position is shown here, again:

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And Paul again shows us that even these shall be saved, in Romans 11:25-32.

[edited]

In any case there are zero sinless believers and there are an equal amount, ZERO, of Perfect believers.
 
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At the baseline of every sect who claims believers can be lost is their stance on the effectiveness of the Work of Chris't cross.

Did Jesus "take away" sins from the accounting of believers or not?

IF some believers believe this not to be the case, then they will veer quite afar off.

What did the Apostles teach?

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins
, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Some will go on then to say/claim that unbelief is not covered. But, the real difficulty, scripturally, is that unbelief is also a sin.

John 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Scripture also shows us that the unbelief of believers will NOT result in eternal damnation, specifically with Moses being used as an example. Moses died without entering the promised land because of unbelief.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

This unbelief of both of these men resulted in their death prior to the entrance of Israel into the promised land.

Yet MOSES shows up on the Mt. of transfiguration with Jesus. Did the unbelief of Moses keep Moses from being saved? Assuredly NOT.

The identical position is shown here, again:

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And Paul again shows us that even these shall be saved, in Romans 11:25-32.

Be careful who you decide to commit to hell. You may be spending eternity with them and perhaps you'll regret your OWN unbelief?

In any case there are zero sinless believers and there are an equal amount, ZERO, of Perfect believers.
what does eternal security have to with works?
 
I remember a few years ago a lot of people on this forum kept challenging me about guns until I finally spoke up, and then got thrown off the forum because of it.
This is the same thing.
You are a mob trying to destroy the truth because you know it works against you.


Please explain what truth you are referring to, and how it's works against me.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


I know you believe the Holy Spirit when He says...in latter times some will depart from the faith.



JLB
 
Please explain what truth you are referring to, and how it's works against me.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


I know you believe the Holy Spirit when He says...in latter times some will depart from the faith.



JLB
I knew a guy once who campaigned for McGovern for president.
When the time came, he withdrew his support and didn't vote for him.
Come to find out, he was never a registered voter to begin with.
Who knew?
 
Can you point out the "symbolic" words in the following verse's?

40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:40-42



JLB
-
Are you suggesting that if we didnt feed Jesus a meal, because we didnt feed one of his servants, that we go to hell?
We'll ive not fed one......How about you?
So, that is the literal translation of the scripture you have posted.
Does this help you?
 
Kidron , perhaps you're busy constructing a response, maybe not. But I'll make this easy for you so you can respond to the challenge I'm leveling against you: According to you, the person who does not hold fast the word never believed to begin with, or they are still saved. You have made both arguments. But they contradict each other, so explain your duplicity.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)
-
Ive created no duplicity.

Ive said that if you believe in Vain, you have not been born again, yet.
And if Paul says the Gospel is what saves you and you are to stand on the Gospel as the means through Faith by which everyone can be saved, then i agree, as that is the truth.
Notice he is clearly teaching that if a person (or anyone in this group) hears in vain they are not saved, and if anyone will hear with faith they are SAVED by believing the Gospel, as long as they have not "heard in vain"..(didnt mix faith with their hearing).
Paul is very clear here......nothing foggy about it.
 
It's interesting to note that what the Bible actually says insults the cross is a trampling of the grace of the cross in a willful sinning.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB)


But you're arguing that it is having to have a continuing faith in the cross that insults it. :confused


In this Hebrew passage, you are being warned that to Reject Christ when you are convicted by the Holy Spirit, is the same as re-nailing Him to the Cross.
This is the status of the Christ Rejector, as it insults grace itself to resist the "tug" of the Holy Spirit.
So, its a terrible idea to hear the gospel, and reject it knowing its the truth, as Paul refers to this as "go on sinning willfully".
And Paul tells you that if you reject Christ, you will die in your sins and suffer the consequences after you die, as you have rejected the only way to be saved.
 
In this Hebrew passage, you are being warned that to Reject Christ when you are convicted by the Holy Spirit, is the same as re-nailing Him to the Cross.
This is the status of the Christ Rejector, as it insults grace itself to resist the "tug" of the Holy Spirit.
So, its a terrible idea to hear the gospel, and reject it knowing its the truth, as Paul refers to this as "go on sinning willfully".
And Paul tells you that if you reject Christ, you will die in your sins and suffer the consequences after you die, as you have rejected the only way to be saved.
Rejecting Christ and sinning willfully are two different concepts.
Hebrews 10:26 is speaking about someone who did NOT reject Christ, but accepted Him and believed, but kept on sinning anyway.

It's saying that it's possible to sin after being saved and thus lose salvation.
A very uncomfortable thought for some,
But not for those who wish to PERSEVERE in their faith until the end.

W
 
Here is what the Holy Spirit warned us about, concerning the latter times:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Here is an example of this happening: http://www.ex-christian.net/

JLB
-
Did you notice that some departed from the Faith, but Paul does not say they are lost, or on their way to hell?
That is interesting isnt it?
Did you ever study that?
So, you have to read into that scripture what you are implying that it is saying, to get your theology out of it.

Listen, JLB, Born Again believers depart from the faith all the time.
Often its because of some tragedy that they blame God for, such as not rescuing them from an extreme period of suffering , or that their child dies, perhaps.
The get bitter, they hate God, they blame God, and their way to deal with it is to hate God, and hold him accountable.
They have departed the faith, but God has not departed them, and the Blood of Jesus has not stopped keeping them redeemed.
The thing is, the blood of Jesus does not stop working on behalf of a born again Saint, simply because that Child of God turns out bad, or worse.
 
-
Are you suggesting that if we didnt feed Jesus a meal, because we didnt feed one of his servants, that we go to hell?
We'll ive not fed one......How about you?
So, that is the literal translation of the scripture you have posted.
Does this help you?


All you have to do is answer a simple question, as to why Jesus sentenced these goats to hell?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43

My answer to the question is:

For, in this verse, is how we would say "because".

Because show us the reason why, these were sentenced to hell.


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Because I was hungry and you gave Me no food.
Because I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink.
Because I was a stranger and you did not take Me in.
Because I was naked and you did not clothe Me.
Because I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.

As I read these words of Jesus Christ, I refuse to ignore them or explain them away, as if they were not real.

To me this teaches us the way we treat others, is how we are also treating Christ.

If we demonstrate love to others, by giving them something they need, then we are demonstrating love towards God Himself.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10

But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? 1 John 3:17





JLB
 
Rejecting Christ and sinning willfully are two different concepts.
Hebrews 10:26 is speaking about someone who did NOT reject Christ, but accepted Him and believed, but kept on sinning anyway.

It's saying that it's possible to sin after being saved and thus lose salvation.
A very uncomfortable thought for some,
But not for those who wish to PERSEVERE in their faith until the end.

W

No, your scripture posted does not say that someone has been born again, it says you received the knowledge of the Gospel, and kept on sinning....that is you kept on refusing to believe it.
> Christ Rejector<.
 
Rejecting Christ and sinning willfully are two different concepts.

W
-
Actually, when you are hearing Paul preach the Gospel while the Holy Spirit is enlightening you by conviction, is absolutely "sinning willfully"< as you are willfully rejecting Christ, and that is to "do despite to the Spirit of Grace, and to trodden under foot the Son of God and his Blood.,".
All of this is to willfully and knowingly reject Christ when you KNEW it was the Truth.
Hebrews has quite a lot to say about this type of willfully resisting the Holy Spirit when you are being convicted and know what you should do, but WONT.
 
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