Graven Images

[Catholic Crusader]

There are a lot of professing Christians on these forums who have images of Christ for their avatar. To you all, I think you need to hear that those images you have of Christ are perversions of His glory and a blatant transgression of the second commandment. We aren't to make images of God. Any idea in our minds of what Christ might look like is a total perversion because our fallen minds aren't capable of grasping the fulness of His glory in their unglorified state. Please remove them. I hate having to renounce them every time my eyes fall upon the perverted images that don't compare to the glory of Christ. So you need to remove them not only because they are a transgression of the second commandment, but they may be causing people on these forums to stumble, and therefore you need to remove them for that reason as well.

You are wrong. You should not twist the Scriptures as a tool to command other peoiple to obey your opinion of imagery. The Bible also tells us to do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Yet you have insulted me and my faith numerous times, with no regard that you may cause ME to stumble as a result.

If you do not want to see images, then use the site function which disables them for your personal viewing. But I think you are WAY out of line COMMANDING others to fall in line with your extremist position.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....WHAT about the example that was set by the apostles and their followers? This means NOTHING to you? Show me a 'rich apostle'.....

I have often noticed that people who share your opinion would never consider selling their own home, giving the money to the poor, and moving into an apartment.

I believe it is the LOVE of money for money's own sake that is bad, not the money itself.

 

[Imagican]

And as far a 'those like me' you are probably right. I have a modest home that is 'cheaper' to live in than paying for an apartment. What I will do with it if and when it's EVER 'paid off' I can't say.

While I will openly admit that the society that we live in has FORCED us to be reliant upon a 'certain amount' of cash or credit, that does NOT alter the FACT that we have been warned AGAINST a 'love of money'. And those that would choose a 'life of luxury' would CERTAINLY be REQUIRED to offer an amount of 'LOVE' of that which would make this possible.

I have YET to judge YOU or anyone else 'personally' in any regards other than 'understanding'. I know NOTHING about the lifestyles of you or others. That is irrelevant to this coversation. What I 'thought' we were discussing were 'graven images'.

I have NO objections to dicussions of personal behavior but that is certainly 'another subject'.

Graven images ARE 'any image made by the hand of man to reflect ANYTHING in heaven or on earth. 'Art' in basically EVERY aspect of it would be considered 'graven images' in this regard. Music is a 'separate category' of imagery, but it would fit nicely in the 'concept of' graven images.

I eat, I drive, and as you have previously pointed out, I have a computer. I have a television, a stereo, and the ability to play videos and dvds. I have a stove, a micowave, and a toaster. A coffee maker, a can opener, (electric), and an oven. I have an electric vacuum and carpet in most of the house. I have two cats and a bird, (you can see one of them to the right). I have tools, (some of them electric), and I have some furniture. Most of what I have has been 'given me' or 'left to me' by others.

I work and pay bills for this is what we MUST do in order to survive. I have little use for money OTHER than to pay the bills that I must in order to have a place to live and eat. I have NO insurance and I have NO 'savings' account. What I have I spend on essentials and in offerings to others. If you were here and needed a place to stay and food to eat you would be welcomed. So long as I am able to produce EXTRA, those that I encounter are more than welcome to share what I have.

Unlike the CC teachings, I am PERFECTLY ABLE to discern what to DO with God's wealth that is offered to ME. I need NO ONE live luxuriously off my earnings or property. I need NO ONE to 'spend my money FOR ME' or 'tell me HOW God wishes for me to spend it'. God is Plenty capable of offering me PERSONALLY information concerning those that I am ABLE to help or share with. He HAS sent MANY to me in the past and continues to do so in the present. He has NEVER inspired me to 'build a fancy temple' for Him nor has He inspired me to donate to OTHERS who wish to do so.

I am a 'carpenter' by trade. I work FOR MYSELF and do mostly remodels and repairs for those that CAN'T afford to hire expensive contractors, (mostly word of mouth through friends and family) I do NOT make a 'bunch' of money but enough to 'get by'. I also paint and do sheet rock repair, basic plumbing and electrical etc............ I work for the bare minimum that I am able in order to 'keep up' with what I MUST 'pay out'.

Yes, I could simply sell everything that I own and rely on OTHERS or God to provide. But I HAVE been TOLD by my God that I AM to work and support myself IF I AM ABLE. So that's what I do.

But that does NOT alter in the least what we have BEEN TOLD concerning those that ARE 'rich'. I didn't 'make up' the Word, I have simply read it and am able to comprehend it and understand what it MEANS. I NEED no excuses for my understanding just PLENTY of FORGIVENESS. It doesn't TAKE one that is PERFECT to have a PERFECT understanding and we will ALL grow as we go. I don't know if there's EVER been but ONE born perfect. therefore the REST of us are only able to 'work on it'.

But let me ask this of you: Is art NOT sensual in it's appeal? I mean WHAT IS IT about art that 'draws' individuals TO IT? If you don't understand this then it is perfectly understandable WHY you don't understand the words that I offer.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and we were ALSO told NOT to 'live for tomorrow' for NO ONE KNOWS what tomorrow WILL BRING. And in this respect, those that 'amass wealth' would have NO REASON to DO SO if not for the LOVE of it. For those that have 'faith' there is NO NEED to 'prepare for the future' EXCEPT so far as our Salvation is concerned. Neither YOU or I am ABLE to alter ONE SECOND of the future in ANY positive way except in LOVE of God and each other.

Am I comfortable? YES. Do I struggle like MOST other people on a day to day basis. OF COURSE. But I certainly have 'faith' in that MY God will NOT allow me to 'starve to death'. If it were HIS will I would do so willingly, but so far He has offered His grace in that this has NOT been required of me.

But I have NOT bought into this 'world view' of 'get what you can while you can'. I have NO desire to live 'big' off the labor of others. I find MORE contentment when sharing with others than with the idea of 'hording it' for another day. Will I DIE wealthy, hardly imaginable. For that is NOT 'one of my goals'. I struggle DAILY with the burden of learning to 'love my neighbors as myself' and this is ENOUGH for me. If I can accomplish this ONE feat in my life I feel that I have been a 'success'.

And PLEASE don't accuse me of a 'lack of love' for POINTING out that which others DO which is NOT Biblical or righteous. Has NOTHING to do with 'hate' and ONLY offered in LOVE. For I was ONCE as lost as MOST on this planet. Seeking ONLY that which pleased ME and MY senses. Came from a relatively wealthy family that would be MORE than willing to throw me money right this minute if I so chose to ASK. But at one point I came to the realization that God IS REAL and so too His Son. And that Their DESIRE for me is MUCH more important than my desires for myself. For that which is carnal can ONLY destroy ANY positive relationship with God through His Son. And IF POSSIBLE i would 'pass on' what I have learned the HARD WAY. In the HOPES that there may be ONLY ONE that is able to listen and comprehend and NOT have to live their lives the way I have lived MOST of mine.

Understanding is the KEY to being ABLE to offer LOVE. We ARE our brothers keepers and we are to DO whatever we are able to HELP our brothers and sisters in NOT letting them 'stumble'. MOST of 'Christianity today' is MORE concerned with 'not rocking the boat' than HELPING 'anyone' but themselves. That is NOT what we have been offered through example or through The Word. We ARE to 'fight the good fight' and do it wearing the WHOLE armour of God. Otherwise we are simply fooling ourselves into believing what the 'churches' perpetuate in the 'guise' of Christianity.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

I eat, I drive, and as you have previously pointed out, I have a computer. I have a television, a stereo, and the ability to play videos and dvds. I have a stove, a micowave, and a toaster. A coffee maker, a can opener, (electric), and an oven. I have an electric vacuum and carpet in most of the house. I have two cats and a bird, (you can see one of them to the right). I have tools, (some of them electric), and I have some furniture. Most of what I have has been 'given me' or 'left to me' by others.

MEC,

That cat looks possessed! How about I bring a priest over there?! :P

As per our conversations of the past, do you think God disapproves of art? Art, whether music or visual, is a prime means of lifting up the soul to God. The Psalms are full of them, because they are meant to be SUNG! God directed the Jews to build a lavish Temple FILLED with art. MEC, I think you need to step back and realize that EVERYTHING of God's creation can be turned towards evil. But that does not mean we are to lock ourselves into a barn with sparse walls and no music for fear of being turned to the ways of the devil. God placed us in the world - though we are not OF the world. We are pilgrims whose place is in heaven. But that doesn't mean God doesn't want us to use creation to further our walk. We just need discernment on proper use of God's great gifts of creation, including art that HE inspires within people.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

MEC, That cat looks possessed! How about I bring a priest over there?

 

[Free]

As per our conversations of the past, do you think God disapproves of art?

See this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30874&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

 

[Vic C.]

MEC,

That cat looks possessed! How about I bring a priest over there?! :P

Yeah, it does looked spooked. :o Hey, I know a Baptist elder to took part in an exorcism. Maybe he'd like to assist? 8-)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

See this thread:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30874&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

I looked and I saw this:

If your Catholic then you already know that their Cathedrals are dripping of graven images.

Dripping? A little over the top, no?

 

[Devekut]

Well CC,

Maybe the Sistine Chapel.

Regardless, I think we should move away from the Catholic issue and get an answer from our iconoclastists regarding this:

Do you imagine Jesus when you read the gospel stories, do you picture him teaching, being baptized and being crucified?

 

[Imagican]

The only way that this would be POSSIBLE is due to the 'false pictures' of Christ that have been 'fed' to the churches by those that DON'T understand the possible dangers of such. Or MAYBE they DO understand and 'do it' on PURPOSE. I couldn't honestly say.

But NO, I do NOT imagine an ACTUAL figure of Christ when I pray nor do I picture His Father, My God. I get the 'impression' of a 'loving Father' but NO ACTUAL 'picture' in my mind.

Do YOU? And IF SO, where does this LIKENESS 'come from'? Does it 'resemble' pictures that you've been exposed to?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

As per our conversations of the past, do you think God disapproves of art?

See this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30874&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

I believe that we have been WARNED against it, yes. If we 'look back' we DON'T find ANY evidence of the apostles encouraging ART. NOT ONE INSTANCE.

We can clearly SEE that the JEWS/Hebrews were commanded NOT to make any such objects EXCEPT those SPECIFICALLY commanded BY GOD. And these were VERY LIMITED.

But what we DO SEE is the story of the man creating images and selling them to BE WORSHIPED. And we can CLEARLY see the perspective that is offered in this STORY.

I cannot JUDGE 'art' so far as whether ANY is inspired BY GOD. But I am aware of the commandment NOT to MAKE 'graven images'. Since God make NO 'trivial' commandments or commandments WithouT purpose, it is simply a matter of discernment of WHY. Once you are 'able' to discern such, then it is CLEAR 'WHY' He forbid it.

Firstly it involves 'vanity'. Secondly the ONLY reason that a person would create any 'graven image' would be for 'admiration', either from oneself, or for others to admire. Thirdly, it is NOT something that would be considered 'work' in the past. It is NOTHING other than a decadent 'waste of time' so far as LOVE is concerned. It involves 'self Love' MORE than 'anything else'. And CERTAINLY an 'amount' of 'worship' for the SERIOUS 'artist'. If you would DENY this, then ASK any artist that is SERIOUS about his or her work and the word they will use is; DEVOTED.

If you 'look back' at 'where' our modern appreciation of 'art' came from, it's relatively EASY to see that it was NOT 'God inspired'. It was 'pagan' in MOST of it's aspects, and then a mere 'vanity of the rich and famous', (mostly royalty and nobility).

Now Free, I ask YOU: Do you 'believe' that God wishes for us to 'build' Him ELABORATE 'temples'? 'Special places' of worship? That majestic palaces built to honor Him actually DO SO?

And how about PICTURES of God. Do you believe they are PLEASING to Him? After being TOLD that HE IS SPIRIT, do you believe 'human personification' actually offers Him HONOR?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and the only 'thing' that you could possibly do to please this cat is................................FEED HIM. He weighs about 22 pounds and has a head as big as a softball, bigger maybe. This is what he looks like when he's 'HUNGRY'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

OH, and HOW amazing;

The Catholics, creaters of this 'trinity' and serious 'believers in art', have NUMEROUS famous pictures depicting Jesus and God. Funny, but they almost invariably offer DIFFERENT depictions of EACH. God is most often offered as an elderly, fatherly figure. And Christ as a 'younger' son type figure. And they even have pictures depicting angels and, perhaps, The Spirit?

Yet we are TOLD NOT to offer UNDUE attention to such entities as 'angels' and such.

But the 'strangest' part is that in MANY of these 'pictures' God and Christ are portrayed as BEING SEPARATE 'entities'. Hmmmmm. God the father as an elderly fatherly image, and Christ AS a 'younger' sonly type image. If Jesus IS God in the flesh, then WHY would the CC possess and display such images. Seems kind of 'contradictory' to me. Kind of like the Romans and their pictures of Apollo and Zeus and such. Real seriously similar don't you THINK?

And Mary often depicted MUCH as greek godesses; you know, like venus and such............. Curiouser and curiouser..................

MEC

 

[Imagican]

MEC, That cat looks possessed! How about I bring a priest over there?

Only if you'd be willing to FEED HIM to the cat.....................

MEC

 

[GraceBwithU]

OK Guys,
Let’s not get carried away with graven images.

Ex 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God,
KJV

Like all scriptures in the bible, if taken out of context they can be made to say anything we want.

If you only look at verse 4 here then it pretty much eliminates all artwork, sculpture, etc. not just the art that is to resemble our vision of God and Jesus. The commandment doesn’t stop with heaven above. But if you read all three commandments, (that I think are grouped together for a reason), you will see plainly that the main point of these three commandments is who we are commanded to WORSHIP. The worship of any image of God, any other image, or any other god is forbidden. All three of these commandments compliment the first one.
:wink:

 

[handy]

Exactly, Grace! :wink:

 

[Imagican]

Grace, handy,

Please explain to me the 'purpose' behind 'art'. If we ARE to 'create art', please show me it's 'Spiritual benefit'.

I have pointed out WHY it's 'unrigheous'. If you believe differenty, please offer some Biblical evidence to the contrary.

I have already offered that it involves 'vanity'. Self sensuality. And in a sense, worship of the 'creator' and worship by the admirer. If these accusations are 'truth', then why would you 'defend' such?

That mankind has LOST his ability to discern the 'truth' does NOT 'take away' from it.

Show me ONE shread of evidence that we ARE to create and admire 'art'. Yet I have already offered evidence that we are NOT to DO SO.

The commandment does not ONLY state that we are NOT to worship such creations, it forbids their EVEN BEING MADE. It is not I who take the words 'out of context'. I have simply attempted to place them IN CONTEXT. The commandment concerning 'graven images' is MORE than a 'simple statement'. It is a 'multifold' commandment offered to eliminate the possibility of damage.

Funny, but MOST of the Protestant denominations recognize the CC's abuse of idolotry. Yet seem to be able to draw lines that DO NOT EXIST. You would condemn the CC's use of idols in their 'churches'. Yet are UNABLE to 'see' that it's NOT JUST THEIR idols that were 'forbidden', it's ALL idols.

Totally bizaar that 'once' a 'religion' STARTS accepting something, their eyes become blind to the 'truth'. Rock n Roll in the church? Come on. And since it has become 'accepted', most are now UNABLE to discern the TRUTH.

No different with 'graven images'. The churches have deemed what they DON'T participate in to BE 'graven images' while TOTALLY ignoring their OWN use of such. A 'graven image' is a 'graven image'. But it seems that some think that 'some images' are OK, while others are NOT ok. Why is this. What's the difference?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Please explain to me the 'purpose' behind 'art'. If we ARE to 'create art', please show me it's 'Spiritual benefit'. I have pointed out WHY it's 'unrigheous'. If you believe differenty, please offer some Biblical evidence to the contrary.

You know, some things are just common sense. Why have a car? Why have a computer? Why have red, yellow and greem lights on a traffic signal? Where is the Biblical evidence they are necessary?

"Biblical evidence" is not necessary for every little thing in life. Some things just come from a heart of love & faith. Art, be it music, poetry, painting, sculpture, is an expression of the artist. There is no need to make it more complicated than that.

Speaking of poetry, I like this one:

Lovely Lady dressed in blue, Teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy, Tell me what to say!

Did you lift Him up, sometimes, Gently on your knee?
Did you sing to Him the way Mother does to me?

Did you hold His hand at night? Did you ever try
Telling stories of the world? O! And did He cry?

Do you really think He cares, If I tell Him things
Little things that happen? And Do the Angels' wings Make a noise?

And can He hear Me if I speak low?
Does He understand me now? Tell me - for you know.

Lovely Lady dressed in blue Teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy, And you know the way.

 

[Imagican]

Please explain to me the 'purpose' behind 'art'. If we ARE to 'create art', please show me it's 'Spiritual benefit'. I have pointed out WHY it's 'unrigheous'. If you believe differenty, please offer some Biblical evidence to the contrary.

You know, some things are just common sense. Why have a car? Why have a computer? Why have red, yellow and greem lights on a traffic signal? Where is the Biblical evidence they are necessary?

"Biblical evidence" is not necessary for every little thing in life. Some things just come from a heart of love & faith. Art, be it music, poetry, painting, sculpture, is an expression of the artist. There is no need to make it more complicated than that.

Speaking of poetry, I like this one:

Lovely Lady dressed in blue, Teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy, Tell me what to say!

Did you lift Him up, sometimes, Gently on your knee?
Did you sing to Him the way Mother does to me?

Did you hold His hand at night? Did you ever try
Telling stories of the world? O! And did He cry?

Do you really think He cares, If I tell Him things
Little things that happen? And Do the Angels' wings Make a noise?

And can He hear Me if I speak low?
Does He understand me now? Tell me - for you know.

Lovely Lady dressed in blue Teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy, And you know the way.

Do you 'truly believe' that art is ONLY the expression of 'an individual'? That there is NOTHING 'spritual' about 'music, painting, sculpture, etc......?

My friend, EVERYTHING is 'spirtual' one way or the other. There is NOTHING that we DO that is WITHOUT 'purpose'. That is WHY we are here. This physical body and what we call a 'mind' are MUCH more than a simple 'random occurance'. Each of us IS responsible for that which we DO or DON'T do. NOT a MOMENT of our lives if of NO consequence.

Satan would LOVE for us to BELIEVE that we are ABLE to simply LIVE without the necessity of responsibility for that which we ALLOW into our lives.

We HAVE the examples set before us. And NOT A ONE of those examples is given that deals with artist BEING that which we should 'follow'. NOT A ONE. We have NOT A SINGLE example of ONE of the apostles BEING an 'artist'. Not a SINGLE 'righteous' individual in the ENTIRE work of The Word 'as an artist'. Do you NOT 'see' the significance of it?

Work............Do you believe that ANY work is OK with God? Selling drugs? Selling pornography? Selling 'self'? Or how about pastors who refuse to do ANY work other than 'speaking to people'? Funny, but from what we KNOW, ALL the apostles were 'workers'. Paul we KNOW for a FACT was a worker.

Or how about astronauts? Would you 'think' that this is an 'honorable profession' as far as God is concerned?

We were WARNED NOT to LOVE this world. Not to 'take part' in it's intricacies. WHY? There IS a 'reason' for such warning. For WHEN we 'take part' in it, we BECOME a 'part of it'. And the WORLD BELONGS to SATAN.

For any that would deny this we HAVE The Word which STATES it. Satan could NOT have offered it's obedience to Christ had it NOT been within his power to deliver. What kind of tempter would tempt with that which he couldn't deliver? Not much of a 'temptation there' is it?

Our lives, (those that claim Christ as their Savior), is to BE devoted to God and His Son. You CANNOT serve TWO masters. If you even 'think' you can then you have deceived yourself into an 'unholy' alliance. And NEVER forget that there ARE MANY that serve Satan THINKING that HE IS GOD. That was the REASON behind his fall and that is WHAT he desires more than anything else; To BE worshiped AS God. And MANY have fallen prey to his deceptions and many disguises.

In order to PROTECT ourselves from HIS influence we MUST follow the examples we have been given. Otherwise we DO NOT EVEN HAVE the ability to discern the TRUTH. James Jones, David Koresh, there have been MANY examples of those those that were following Satan in the guise of God. And these are PRIIME examples of those that chose to follow MEN rather than God through His Son. And, my friend, these are ONLY TWO 'famous' examples. Do you NOT realize that there are MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY others that are NOT as 'obvious' as these two?

Satan is as subtle as he need be. For some he is blatant in his offerings. For others he realizes the necesity of subtlty and is influential in like manner. But his ONE PURPOSE IS to be worshiped BY MANKIND. And the ONLY way the masses would outright 'worship Satan' is IF they BELIEVED 'him' to BE God.

You mentioned pictures of 'angels'. Have you not read in The Word that we are NOT to be duped into an 'unholy' worship or acknowledgement of such? These offerings are EXACTLY 'how' Satan is able to REACH those that are UN-knoweledgable of his temptations. Once one 'starts' on the road of sensual pleasures, it's ONLY a matter of time BEFORE Satan BECOMES their God. That is EXACTLY why we are NOT to drink to drunkeness, not to become 'drug addicts', and NOT to dwell on illicit sex and such. For ONCE we 'begin' to follow this path, our walk becomes UNFRUITFUL in that our devotion is directed toward that which IS Carnal.

One CANNOT put on and wear the ENTIRE armour of God and partake of this worlds pleasures. IMPOSSIBLE. And we would NOT have been TOLD to 'put it on' were it NOT necessary for our PROTECTION. Yet so many simply 'skip' through life without the slightest acknowledgment of it's necessity. Thinking that THEY are able to resist ON THEIR OWN. That they can LIVE like the REST of the World and STILL please God. And Satan is 'eating it up'.

I have been ridiculed for 'believing' as JOHN the Baptist did. For accepting what has been offered by the apostles and Christ Himself. WhY? Why do you reacon these words were offered? And IF we truly accept Christ AS our Savior, shouldn't we HEED these words? Even if our lives become difficult by following their example isn't THAT what should separate Christians from the rest of the world? Giving UP that which is sensual and that which is pleasing to our CARNAL nature in favor of that which is righteous and holy? Hard to tell in the 'church' ridden world we live in today.
For even their pastors have chosen to partake in the pleasures of the 'carnal' nature rather than offer themselves an 'holy sacrifice' to God.

MEC