Graven Images

[JayR]

Christian brothers don't advocate the creation and defense of idols. I'm not so sure you are my brother.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Christian brothers don't advocate the creation and defense of idols. I'm not so sure you are my brother.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Notice how God never commands, make a statue of me skillfully worked, so that you can be reminded of me. He doesn't say that because He doesn't command people to break His commandments and making images of God is idolatry.

Good point...I'm still not sure that artwork of Jesus or God is wrong, but the scripture quoted does not defend the position that it is not.

 

[Devekut]

I do not see how those opposed to holy icons can not see that God gave us permission to create them implicity by the Incarnation.

God became man in Jesus, and walked on the earth for sinners to see. The Father was seen in the Son, and the Son was a simple, poor man with vagabond tendencies. Hardly the glory that we expected or will one day see.

Let us wonder now, it is wrong to imagine Jesus when we read scripture? Is it mental idolatry to picture his face?

 

[Archetype]

I do not see how those opposed to holy icons can not see that God gave us permission to create them implicity by the Incarnation.

God became man in Jesus, and walked on the earth for sinners to see. The Father was seen in the Son, and the Son was a simple, poor man with vagabond tendencies. Hardly the glory that we expected or will one day see.

Let us wonder now, it is wrong to imagine Jesus when we read scripture? Is it mental idolatry to picture his face?

I'd be careful about saying that. The lord was a carpenter with his father, joseph. His travels were his ministry, he wasn't some thug wandering around carelessly. so please choose your words a bit more carefully. i'd say he was a traveling minister sent by the holy father.

As for seeing god. read matthew 5: 8. I don't believe this refers to the optical image of God are eyes and brains can interpret. It covers that and far more. What does it mean to "see" god?

And why do people paint jesus, with a beard, olive skin, skinny and long hair? did not paul state:

Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? (1 Corinthians 11: 14-15, NIV)

so why would jesus have long hair? Has anyone been a carpenter? I have worked as a drywall installer, roofer and such. my body was muscularly built and athletic not frail.

So I have come to the conclsuion that any image of the lord whatsoever is just another vehicle to profane his name. It doesnt matter if christ was black, white or of some other complexion. What matters is that we love him above all else and keep his commandments.

but people are more concerned of how he appears to them in "their image." Thus is idolatry in its purest form.

 

[Devekut]

I think you're perspective is deeply skewed.

The fact that, in any culture we travel to, Jesus reflects their ethnicity (ie. caucasian Jesus, African Jesus, Asian Jesus, Mexican Jesus.) Has nothing to do with idolatry, but with the universality of Christ.

Christian icons are beautiful representations of the life of Christ and powerful tools for connecting with his person. They assist in helping us enter into the gospel drama. Have you ever sat and contemplated the Crucifixion before an icon? Let yourself soak in the grief, suffering and pain of that event? Focusing on the images of the crying angels, the pain of the Lord, the grief of his mother?

Icons help recreate in us the spirit of the event that they depict. No one mistakes the icons as being historic replicas or perfectly representing the Lord.

It's not so much about representing Christ as he actually was then (although being in history, that dimension is unavoidable), but visually representing him to us as he is to us now and always. Notice the icons of the Western Renaissance, they always depict Christ in that time period. Preaching in, say, a late medieval town. Christ was very contemporary to them.


For we can and should always carry with us the sorrow of the Lord as he prays alone in Gethsemane, we can always carry his pain on the Cross, we can always carry with us the splendor and victory of his Resurrection.

Man is a visual and aesthetic being. God know this, and to make himself more intimate with us, he sent himself amongst us, fashioned in human flesh and form.

Iconography continues to honor the Incarnation as an intimate act of God entering both human history and human form.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....Thus is idolatry in its purest form.

CCC 2112 - The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them." God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.

CCC 2113 - Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

CCC 2114 - Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

SOURCE:
The Catechism Of The Catholic Church:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3 ... 1.htm#2111

This is the best explanation of idolatry I have ever found. To think that an artistic expression of faith is idolatry, or to think that the great gift that God has placed into the hands of artists like Michaelangelo or Raphael was used to defile God, to me is an unwarranted attack against artists who were sincerely trying to give Glory to our Divine Creator by using the gifts God had given them.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

 

[Imagican]

Can't believe you guys STILL don't 'get it'.

Here, let's try a 'different approach';

Let's say, (just hypothetical of course), but let's suppose Satan inspired me to create a 'painting' of HIM and call it Jesus. It was a BEAUTIFUL PAINTING. One of the BEST on the planet. But it was 'anti-Christ' inspired. YOU see it. It IS BEAUTIFUL. I TELL you that it IS Jesus. You BELIEVE that I was 'divinely inspired' to create such a WONDEROUS WORK OF ART. You ask if you can make copies and sell them. I am MORE than anxious for you to do so. So, the next thing you know, it's on websites, billboards, in bibles, posters in your childrens room, it's EVERYWHERE, (as it should be being that it's SUCH a WONDERFUL PICTURE). But the 'intent' in the 'creaters' HEART was PURE evil. And not just an 'ignorant evil', it was DELIBERATE, designed to 'influence' ALL that were willing to expose themselves to it.

Now, THIS is WHY God discouraged the making of graven images. They CAN BE and ARE very deceptive. They appeal to the 'sensual' or 'carnal NATURE' of mankind and God KNEW this. To PROTECT us from the inherrent DANGER, He forbid those that LOVE Him from 'creating' that which CAN and DOES cause HARM.

Music is NO DIFFERENT. We would fair BETTER with NO music AT ALL for the simple FACT that MOST are UNABLE to discern that which is RIGHTEOUS from that which is EVIL. Better to LOOSE an EAR than to LOOSE one's SOUL.

NOT a SINGLE person out there can DETERMINE what is in the heart of the CREATOR of 'art'. Satan is ABLE to deliver that which is PLEASING to the 'spirit'. He KNOWS EXACTLY how to 'influence' those that EXPOSE themselves to his devices. Now, WHO among us is righteous enough to discern the TRUE nature of 'art'? So far, all I have encountered are those that DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND the POSSIBILITY of what I'm speaking of.

MOST of the art that was 'created' by the 'greats' was COMMISSIONED. Often times the BUYER was the 'motivation' behind the works. JUST because the 'CC' deemed it OK to admire and admonish these 'pictures' does NOT alter the FACT that they ARE 'graven images'. WHY do you 'THINK' that they have the POWER that they DO? WHAT makes them SO FAMOUS? WHAT Is their 'appeal'? WHY would ANYONE pay MILLIONS of DOLLARS for a 'piece of ART'? Don't you 'get it'? It's OF THIS WORLD and is NOT 'righteous' in it's influence, but WORLDLY. CARNAL and it APPEALS to that which IS CARNAL. just another means used by Satan to 'influence' those that allow him to.

I have offered a PLAUSIBLE example above. There is NO WAY that one can DENY that it's PLAUSABLE. And I offer the REASON that we were WARNED NOT to DO IT. We are NOT wise ENOUGH to be able to discern the TRUTH behind the PURPOSE. Some would call it simply 'creativity'. Satan LOVES for us to 'open up' to our 'creative selves'. "Lies" are NOTHING BUT 'creativity'. The 'creating of that which is NOT REAL or TRUTH'.

ANYTIME someone does something and when asked WHERE the 'inspiration' comes from, offer; 'I don't KNOW, it just CAME to me'. BEWARE. Most famous music is 'claimed' to have come by the 'same means'; "I don't know, it just CAME to me". Don't you SEE how DANGEROUS this is?

Satan's tools are MANY and he is WELL VERSED in HOW to use them efficiently against the masses. And one of his most effective tools is COMPLACENCY. 'It doesn't matter'. 'Satan's not real'. 'who Cares?' 'It's OK'.'So what?' This is EXACTLY 'how' he is able to 'influence' those that are NOT wearing the WHOLE armour of God. All you need do is 'slip' for a 'second' and he is there with what the 'carnal' desires. He is the MASTER of 'lies' and KNOWS how to 'do it' without even 'seeming' to. MOST Of what he offeres is 'truth' with just a 'sprinkling of deceit'. That's ALL it takes for one to become 'duped' into an unatural worship of 'objects', idols, icons, words, angels, false gods, people, things, etc...........

And folks, don't EVER forget this: For those that CHOOSE to follow 'lies' offered by Satan or his demons, God Himself will offer STRONG delusion so that you will BELIEVE the lies. Bigfoot, ghosts, monsters, fairies, WHATEVER 'falsehoods' that you CHOOSE to 'believe', you WILL be offered that which YOU will discern as PROOF of it's existence. You want to 'believe' in ghosts; YOU"LL KNOW that they are REAL for you will receive the PROOF that you desire. To you they WILL be REAL.

Here's a pretty good example of what I am refering to here:

Whitney Houston had a number one song; 'Saving all my love for you'. I have been at the grochery store and seen seventy year old ladies singing along to this song. BEAUTIFUL voice and BEAUTIFUL SONG, RIGHT? Do you have ANY idea WHAT she's singing about? This is EXACTLY how Satan is able to influence those that are NOT able to 'defend themselves'. She's singing about 'HER MARRIED LOVER'. Such a 'simply beautiful song'. But look at the inherent DANGER that it 'presents'. It's a song about ADULTERY yet EVERYBODY 'ate it up' like it was 'OK'. THIS is HOW Satan is able to 'destroy' the morals and 'righteousness' of those that ALLOW him to. And MOST that will read this will STILL offer that it's OK. SEE? THAT is JUST HOW 'deceptive' the devil truly is. So much so that MOST don't even 'get it'.

Now, HOW do you suppose SO MANY that 'claim' to BE 'Spirit filled' are UNABLE to discern what is offered here? What's stopping them from 'understanding'? WHAT is our PURPOSE folks? What are we SUPPOSE to expend our time and energy TOWARDS? Does it MATTER how we 'walk' our 'walk' or does it NOT? Were we MEANT to spend our time on PLEASURE, Sensuality, SELF? Or is there 'somehting' DEEPER that we are meant to 'aspire to'? Is it OK to 'partake' of what the world offers so far as sensuality, pleasure, decadence? Can't you SEE that these things are JUST THINGS, designed with ONE PURPOSE, to WASTE one's TIME and energy on that which is CARNAL. That which is SELF-SERVING, that which DOESN'T EDIFY ANYTHING BUT SELF.

I guess if you don't get it you probably WON'T. But ONE DAY you WILL. I just HOPE that you 'do' BEFORE it's TOO LATE. Lukewarm folks, you KNOW what Christ stated about one's 'Spiritual state' being thus? Makes Him SICK to His stomach. and HOW do you suppose one becomes 'lukewarm'? Allowing themselves to BE a 'part of this world'. Loving that which is 'created' MORE than the 'Creator'. Loving the 'creature' MORE than the 'Creator'. Loving this LIFE MORE than God or your neighbors. For you CANNOT love this world and God TOO. You either love ONE or the other. THAT, my friends, is what is meant by 'lukewarm'. ATTEMPTING to LOVE this world WHILE stating that you 'belong' to Christ.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Can't believe you guys STILL don't 'get it'.

Ditto to you, my brother.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....If you are doing something that a brother believes is sin, and yet you continue to do that thing in his presence, then you are enticing him to sin, and are a tempter yourself...

Well, I believe that the heresies you profess, and the attacks against priests that you hurl, is a sin. So follow thy own advice.

 

[JayR]

You're not my brother. I didn't attack any priest, I stated a fact.

 

[Devekut]

This is not even a Catholic issue really...

This is a question of excessive and puritanical Christianity arguing against the use of the visual in our worship of the One God.

There are many Protestants that use imagery in their worship as well.

Imagican.

I'm sorry, but your analysis is completely bogus. If an image is truly an orthodox representation of Christ, it can not be "satanic". Images embody ideas and perspectives. If the image and perspective given is Godly, then it is not Satan behind the work. Images do not contain "invisible evil essences" that, when mass produced, mass produce Satan's desires. That's completely irrational. By that logic, the architect beyond your church building could have been "inspired by satan" and you could be worshipping the devil every sunday.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You're not my brother......

Does that mean you don't think I'm a Christian? Does that mean you don't think Catholics are Christians? Mother Theresa? Francis of Assisi? You think we are not Christians?

This is our fundamental belief:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

-
--Now: Are you going to tell me I'm not a Christian?

 

[JayR]

I believe the majority of the catholic church is lost. God is bigger than the heresies you teach, and He saves some, but catholicism is a works based religion. Based on the heresies you have been teaching here, I don't feel comfortable aligning myself with you and calling you a brother.

 

[JayR]

Professions of faith mean nothing if you don't know God. Many will say to Him on that Day, Lord, Lord... and then He will profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Idolatry is iniquity, and the catholic church is filled with it, and it is so decieved it can't even realize it.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I believe the majority of the catholic church is lost. God is bigger than the heresies you teach, and He saves some, but catholicism is a works based religion. Based on the heresies you have been teaching here, I don't feel comfortable aligning myself with you and calling you a brother.

I feel sorry for you. I truly do. All artwork is disgusting to you. You're scared to call Christians your brothers and sisters. You can't even find in your heart to say kind words to me even though I tried to befriend you. And this, you think, is how the Holy Spirit works in your life? I shall pray for you.

 

[JayR]

Thanks, I'll pray for you too.

When did I say all artwork is disgusting to me? Hmm. Never said that. Idols are disgusting to me, and that's because they are disgusting to God.

When did I say I was scared to call Christians my brothers and sisters? Hmm. Never said that either. I don't call heretics brothers and sisters, that's for sure.

I'm not to bid Godspeed to those who teach and advocate the transgression of the doctrine of Christ.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

This is not even a Catholic issue really...

This is a question of excessive and puritanical Christianity arguing against the use of the visual in our worship of the One God.

There are many Protestants that use imagery in their worship as well.

Imagican.

I'm sorry, but your analysis is completely bogus. If an image is truly an orthodox representation of Christ, it can not be "satanic". Images embody ideas and perspectives. If the image and perspective given is Godly, then it is not Satan behind the work. Images do not contain "invisible evil essences" that, when mass produced, mass produce Satan's desires. That's completely irrational. By that logic, the architect beyond your church building could have been "inspired by satan" and you could be worshipping the devil every sunday.

I wish I could have put it that way. :D

 

[biblecatholic]

Thanks, I'll pray for you too.

When did I say all artwork is disgusting to me? Hmm. Never said that. Idols are disgusting to me, and that's because they are disgusting to God.

When did I say I was scared to call Christians my brothers and sisters? Hmm. Never said that either. I don't call heretics brothers and sisters, that's for sure.

I'm not to bid Godspeed to those who teach and advocate the transgression of the doctrine of Christ.

now I think would be a good time to take a breath and look at the plank in your eye...........................ok now that you see....yeah I know it's pretty big......but still look at it...take it to prayer, the Lord will show you how to remove it.

 

[A-Christian]

biblecatholic, why can I see everyone's avatar but your's? It shows a blank rectangle with a "x" in it.