Guilt

[MayDay]

If the belief in hell primarily creates a mindset of fear, that we will be punished by unimaginable pain if we do not adhere to the stipulations of Jesus the Christ. The primary stipulation that we must believe in him exclusively, that any deviation from his particular world view will result in torture seems to act as a catalyst for internal justification of one's beliefs.

This primary fear of hell installs itself in the mind of every new believer, and once this premise is fully accepted the believer is instantly trapped with guilt. From here the believer must stay dependant on the conditions Jesus the Christ has specified, otherwise they risk total damnation.

We can say that the believer has to fully accept and surrender themselves to Jesus the Christ in order that they may avoid this ghastly place. No evidence is required to debunk this primary belief because the mind has already accepted the idea of hell, and the believer will reject all evidence that might threaten their safe passage out of burning for all eternity.

 

[WIP]

MayDay would prefer to *verify* the existence of Hell personally. We need to leave him to his devices.

I'm not ready to give up on him yet. There is hope and he is still asking legitimate questions. If we can help lead him to the answers, it would be wonderful indeed. It may not happen today but with the help of the Holy Spirit who knows?

MayDay, I don't mean to talk about you as if you aren't here. Just answering Nathan's post is all.

 

[WIP]

I will be going offline now and may not return until tomorrow.

 

[MayDay]

No, I believe there is a hell and I believe we are all destined for it unless we embrace the gift that God has laid on the table.

Sound quite like a jack in a box.

 

[MayDay]

MayDay would prefer to *verify* the existence of Hell personally. We need to leave him to his devices.

When I feel I'm sick I know I'm sick, because the feeling to vomit always comes first. However I can believe I'm sick and a have a wide variety of symptoms, but unless those symptoms manifest physically, it's just all in my head.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

You know I sort of see where MayDay is coming from. He's the type of person who has to see in order to believe and let's just see what Jesus has to say about that. John 20:29 Then Jesus told him: "Because you have seen me you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed."

 

[KevinK]

I agree. I think we were all there at one point.

 

[for_his_glory]

MayDay I notice you are not a Christian, or maybe you just don't call yourself one. I don't know, but if you are you would be seeking answers from the scriptures that already speak of heaven and hell being real places. The problem I see is that you are seeking with a carnal mind of logic, but not that of Spiritual truth. It's like these verses below.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by reading and listening to the teachings of Jesus within the Gospels, especially the Book of John that teaches us who Jesus is and what our relationship with Him is all about that keeps us from the final judgment of God being cast into the lake of fire. It's only those who reject Jesus that are damned already.

I like that you are asking questions and can only hope you are sincere in seeking truth, but yet it's up to you to seek Jesus while He can be found and have that fellowship with Him. We can help answer your questions, but it doesn't do any good if you are not going to pick up a Bible and ask God to help you understand it.

All true Christians that are Spiritually renewed/born again by the Spirit of God from above and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit have a witness and testimony of Christ who has revealed Himself to us in so many different ways that we just know He is real.

Seek Him, talk to Him for that is what prayer is all about, but also be quiet long enough for Him to speak to your heart. Many just don't give Jesus a chance to talk to them.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

I haven't noticed that there is a universal constant that we've globally discovered that proves we have some choice to make. This choice you speak of is exclusive to the theology of the Bible. However if we take a page from the matrix saga, there is also a choice that is hardwired into each human who's connected to the machine's dream world. This choice allows the human occupants of the dream world to reject the matrix on a subconscious level, but it is only a formality. No one actually chooses to reject the dream world due to the alternative. Except for neo, who's rejection of the matrix was entirely based on one condition. That he loved someone outside the matrix.

The fact that you are seeking answers proves that everyone does in fact have to make a choice. I'm guessing someone in your life has been witnessing to you or maybe you went to church or heard something recently that has you asking questions?
Its not a specific crossroad like in the movie you're talking about where its a "choose now or never" type situation. For some people it might be, for others, they can ignore Christ their whole life and not get saved until they only have 10 years or less left.

Since we're talking about hell or place of torment, please check out the story of Lazurus and the rich man in Luke 16: 19-31. There are two things I want you to notice
1) The rich man asks for relief (a drop of water) and for someone to go to his 5 brothers to tell them how to avoid ending up where he did. Notice he doesn't ask why he's there or suggest that its not fair and he didn't do anything wrong.
2) When he asks for someone to go to his brothers, the answer is that they have Moses and the prophets (aka the scriptures) to learn how to be saved and he protests, but the answer is still that if they don't believe what the scripture says even someone coming back from the dead isn't going to make them believe (foreshadowing Jesus, btw).
So its not about seeing and then believing because you can verify and confirm it.
Think for a second about all the things you believe but can't verify. Evolution? Climate Change? Is love a verifiable fact between two people?

Lastly, if you're going to debate Christianity and try to sound smart, please don't base your arguments on a silly series of movies starring the guy from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and those speeding bus movies

 

[MayDay]

The fact that you are seeking answers proves that everyone does in fact have to make a choice. I'm guessing someone in your life has been witnessing to you or maybe you went to church or heard something recently that has you asking questions?
Its not a specific crossroad like in the movie you're talking about where its a "choose now or never" type situation. For some people it might be, for others, they can ignore Christ their whole life and not get saved until they only have 10 years or less left.

Since we're talking about hell or place of torment, please check out the story of Lazurus and the rich man in Luke 16: 19-31. There are two things I want you to notice
1) The rich man asks for relief (a drop of water) and for someone to go to his 5 brothers to tell them how to avoid ending up where he did. Notice he doesn't ask why he's there or suggest that its not fair and he didn't do anything wrong.
2) When he asks for someone to go to his brothers, the answer is that they have Moses and the prophets (aka the scriptures) to learn how to be saved and he protests, but the answer is still that if they don't believe what the scripture says even someone coming back from the dead isn't going to make them believe (foreshadowing Jesus, btw).
So its not about seeing and then believing because you can verify and confirm it.
Think for a second about all the things you believe but can't verify. Evolution? Climate Change? Is love a verifiable fact between two people?

Lastly, if you're going to debate Christianity and try to sound smart, please don't base your arguments on a silly series of movies starring the guy from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and those speeding bus movies

You suppose a great deal of thing's about me because you are insulated with believing thing's, not knowing thing's. How are you ever going to know me or anyone in actuality if your judgements of them is based on what you believe.

You can't actually say that anything you've demonstrated about me or your world view about Angel's, demon's, God's and Demi God's is accurate.

If you believe that is.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

You suppose a great deal of thing's about me because you are insulated with believing thing's, not knowing thing's. How are you ever going to know me or anyone in actuality if your judgements of them is based on what you believe.

You can't actually say that anything you've demonstrated about me or your world view about Angel's, demon's, God's and Demi God's is accurate.

If you believe that is.

I know God is real. I also know that you need to go back and read what I said over again. I said I know for a fact you are seeking because, well, you're here. Then I admitted the next part was a "guess".
The rest is just stuff to make you think about what you think you know.
Of course I don't know your thoughts on evolution (for example), but it was just a suggestion of something that you might possibly feel very strongly about but can't definitively prove either way.
As someone else said - it takes Faith.

As for demons angels and demi-Gods . . I said nothing about any of those things.

 

[MayDay]

I know God is real. I also know that you need to go back and read what I said over again. I said I know for a fact you are seeking because, well, you're here. Then I admitted the next part was a "guess".
The rest is just stuff to make you think about what you think you know.
Of course I don't know your thoughts on evolution (for example), but it was just a suggestion of something that you might possibly feel very strongly about but can't definitively prove either way.
As someone else said - it takes Faith.

As for demons angels and demi-Gods . . I said nothing about any of those things.

Well Lisa, you are still seeking too.

 

[for_his_glory]

You suppose a great deal of thing's about me because you are insulated with believing thing's, not knowing thing's. How are you ever going to know me or anyone in actuality if your judgements of them is based on what you believe.

You can't actually say that anything you've demonstrated about me or your world view about Angel's, demon's, God's and Demi God's is accurate.

If you believe that is.

Maybe you should tell us things about yourself as to what you believe so we can get to know you better and why you do not believe in certain things. You are new here and none of us knows anything about you yet.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

Well Lisa, you are still seeking too.

How so?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is an absolute that we trust in as our faith is in Christ Jesus and what He has already taught us. The evidence is applying what He has taught to own own life that we see Him work in us and through us. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[MayDay]

How so?

Because you're on a Christian forum, something brought you here to share your faith.

 

[MayDay]

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is an absolute that we trust in as our faith is in Christ Jesus and what He has already taught us. The evidence is applying what He has taught to own own life that we see Him work in us and through us. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you believe you're lost you will be lost. I don't believe I'm lost, so I am not lost. I once believed I was lost, but many years later I realised it was just a belief and not a fact.

 

[Who Me]

Since all people start as non-believers then your climate of fear has been overthrown by a belief that your place in hell is squashed.

So long as you hold onto your particular beliefs, you will have nothing to fear. But as I mentioned, beliefs do not equal certainty. However I do realise that if a belief is strong enough, that belief will seem real.

You start with a false statement. Most people are believers in the supernatural with a 'heaven' and a 'hell'. Even atheists/agnostics believe in the supernatural, using tariot, horoscopes, blasphemy and other superstitions.

The carot and stick is used everywhere fromschool, work and in society in general.

Your second statement is equaly false.
It is not is one trusting in?

To believe that one is not going to hell is as pointless as believing that at the next election that one will be elected as president of the USA, anyone believing this is deluded.

To avoid hell one must believe in and be actively following Jesus.

 

[MayDay]

You start with a false statement. Most people are believers in the supernatural with a 'heaven' and a 'hell'. Even atheists/agnostics believe in the supernatural, using tariot, horoscopes, blasphemy and other superstitions.

The carot and stick is used everywhere fromschool, work and in society in general.

Your second statement is equaly false.
It is not is one trusting in?

To believe that one is not going to hell is as pointless as believing that at the next election that one will be elected as president of the USA, anyone believing this is deluded.

To avoid hell one must believe in and be actively following Jesus.

Are you even human? Do you have empathy for those that would be tortured for simply growing up in the wrong religion or being cut off from the gospel due to government.

What about this bible verse:

Jeremiah 19:5 5They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

This contradicts the very tenant that there is a hell (If burning children doesn't even enter your God's mind)

Okay, so you see that's a conflict of interests.

 

[Who Me]

Are you even human? Do you have empathy for those that would be tortured for simply growing up in the wrong religion or being cut off from the gospel due to government.

What about this bible verse:

Jeremiah 19:5 5They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

This contradicts the very tenant that there is a hell (If burning children doesn't even enter your God's mind)

Okay, so you see that's a conflict of interests.

You are advocating that people who are guilty should not suffer the consquence of their guilt.
How do you justify that apart from appealing to emotions?

As for Jerimiah try reading it again.
The prophet is warning the people, who are rejecting everything that God has told them about how to worship him with vile and destestable practices that God does not want done.

But then you consider that people doing these things to be 'innocent', not desirving Gods punishment.

 

[for_his_glory]

If you believe you're lost you will be lost. I don't believe I'm lost, so I am not lost. I once believed I was lost, but many years later I realised it was just a belief and not a fact.

The fact is that all have fallen short of the glory of God and need His grace that is freely given. Christians are not perfect as we will unintentionally sin at times, but we have a Savior, Jesus, whom we can come before Him and ask forgiveness and He will forgive us, Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we need to truly repent so we will be Forgiven.

It's a day by day process of crucifying this sinful flesh as we are to walk in the Holy Spirit that guides us and teaches us all things God wants us to learn. It's a process of faith that we trust and believe in Jesus who is our mediator before the Father and helps us with our infirmities. It's the fellowship we have and desire with God that helps us to overcome our sin nature that we remain pleasing unto Him.