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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The first sentence of my post is key -
"James taught the same principle of the law of faith, that Paul did, which is obedience."
Paul taught that one must confess Jesus as YHWH, the Lord, to be saved.
This act of faith, was directed to the children of Israel, as they had mostly rejected Him, and is also required of all.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:9-13
This is a quote from Joel 2, and is a reference to YHWH.
...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
This act of faith, which the scripture calls the obedience of faith, is the initial act that Paul says saves......with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
This is the work or act of repenting, which is turning to the Lord, by turning away from Satan, and confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.
Paul reiterates this truth throughout His writings:
...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
and again -
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
John also makes this claim -
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14
and again John quotes Jesus as saying -
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59
They understood that He is the Covenant Maker, and the time of the obedience of faith in Him had come, as He Himself would be the Mediator of the New Covenant.
The same Lord, YHWH is Lord over Jew and Gentile, that we would honor Him as God as we honor The Father as God.
as John says -
that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:23
4 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15
James taught the same principle of faith to the Jews as Paul taught to the Gentiles; Faith in Christ Jesus.
JLB
Confessing Jesus as YHWH, the Lord God of Israel, Romans 10:9-13, is the act of obedience, the obedience of faith, that Paul teaches is required for salvation, just like James teaches, that faith without the work of obedience is dead.
Same principle.
JLB
Kidron
Member
This that you wrote """"""" righteousness that comes through works""""" is the issue that proves you are not understanding Grace, similar to all that have a Righteous Works + The Cross idea of salvation..
The issue is, there is NO RIGHTEOUSNESS that comes by works.
Let me say that again......there is NO RIGHTEOUS THAT COMES THROUGH WORKS.....
If Righteous, which is SINLESSNESS, could be created by us doing righteous works, then Jesus didnt need to hang on a cross, jocor.
All Righteousness is based on being SINLESS or NOT......and this cant be achieved by "righteous works", ever.
So, when you talk about the righteousness that is related to Jesus and the Cross which ALONE saves a person, you never include a person's lifestyle as part of it, because when you do, you have shifted the means that God uses to save you, away from Christ.
You have then taken credit for salvation, instead of giving all the credit to Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on a Cross.
And this is what you have committed in your post just like all that cant let go of the Jewish epistle of James that is dealing with the idea of good works in the sense of what a saved person should do after they are saved......AFTER they are SAVED.
AFTER.
AFTER.
You have written a ton of scriptures that talk about Faith alone, and being Justified based on faith, but then you decided to include the error that everyone commits who is combing works as playing ANY PART in being Saved, when you said....."righteousness that comes through works""", and THAT is the problem, that is the error..... as you have just committed the false doctrine of teaching that ANY WORKS will create Righteousness.
They wont, they cant, and that is why we can never try to teach the idea that righteousness can be achieve or maintained by our behavior, by our "righteous works".
The fact is, there is nothing a person can do, ither before they are saved or after they are saved that can create for them any type of righteousness.
So, where you are misunderstanding it, is regarding the fact that a person can do works that are righteous works, but have nothing do with making someone righteous because they do them.
See, a righteous work, is not a righteous person......its just a person doing a righteous work.
A Buddhist can live a life thats full of righteous works, regarding trying to be good, trying to live a lifestyle of perfect "love thy neighbor as thyself", and they will die and go to hell because all their righteous works will NOT pay for their sins.
If you can comprehend that SINLESSNESS is RIGHTEOUSNESS....then this will help you escape the false idea that "righteous works" is righteousness.
Its the same with any person who reads the "works" that JAMES talks about, then they go and do them their whole life, yet, they are not saved, and so all their righteous "James" works are INVALID and USELESS, because they are not righteous >SINLESS< in the eyes of GOD, as this only comes from being GIVEN the righteousness that God and only God can GIVE., and that is based solely and entirely on Christ's blood atonement being applied to a BELIEVER.
Romans 5:17 "the gift of righteousness"
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J
jocor
Guest
Deu 6:24 And YHWH commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear YHWH our Elohim, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before YHWH our Elohim, as He hath commanded us.
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before YHWH our Elohim, as He hath commanded us.
Abel, Noah, Lot, Zacharias and Elisabeth, to name a few, were called “righteous” before Yahweh, but they were not sinless.
Where have I included a person’s lifestyle as necessary for salvation?
I said nothing about salvation. Righteousness and salvation are two different things. I did not say, “salvation that comes through works.”
I DO comprehend that and believe that. I do NOT comprehend or believe that “Righteousness is sinlessness”. People were declared righteous in Scripture, but they were not sinless.
The only righteousness that can save a person is the righteousness imputed by Yahweh through faith.
Kidron
Member
The righteous of God that is given to a believer, based on God accepting their FAITH", = is Righteousness.
So, they are the same in the NEW Testament, regarding being born again.
Therefore, according to the New Testament, Salvation is Righteousness that is given to a believer, and in THIS, the believer has BECOME sinless <> "righteousness". <> Salvation = same thing.
J
jocor
Guest
Correct.
A person can become a born again believer and receive Yahweh's imputed righteousness, but they may not be saved in the end. A person can choose to renounce Yeshua as their Savior in which case they no longer have his sacrifice or his righteousness clothing them. That is why righteousness and salvation are two different things.
smaller
Member
Paul is clear about the intentions of the law, here:
Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
We also know from Paul that the law was meant to "expose" sin. And since the scripture has concluded "all" are in fact 'under sin' there will be no flesh justified. Gal. 3:22
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Paul describes what is untenable friction, without a remedy, and a reality for "all" here:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
There is no remedy for the flesh under any auspices. They are naturally contrary, the flesh and the Spirit.
We can't make our flesh anything other than what it factually is, which is contrary to the Spirit.
Those who claim their flesh is not contrary and is instead "legal and obedient" don't have a clue what they are claiming, as their claim is, in effect, that they have no contrariness.
That will never be the case. We might "rule and reign" over our flesh and the indwelling sin that it factually has, but let's see "the flesh" for what it is, contrary to the Spirit.
It will never be obedient, and can't be.
Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
We also know from Paul that the law was meant to "expose" sin. And since the scripture has concluded "all" are in fact 'under sin' there will be no flesh justified. Gal. 3:22
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Paul describes what is untenable friction, without a remedy, and a reality for "all" here:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
There is no remedy for the flesh under any auspices. They are naturally contrary, the flesh and the Spirit.
We can't make our flesh anything other than what it factually is, which is contrary to the Spirit.
Those who claim their flesh is not contrary and is instead "legal and obedient" don't have a clue what they are claiming, as their claim is, in effect, that they have no contrariness.
That will never be the case. We might "rule and reign" over our flesh and the indwelling sin that it factually has, but let's see "the flesh" for what it is, contrary to the Spirit.
It will never be obedient, and can't be.
RevSRE
Supporter
This is a fascinating thread. AND I agree with the general Idea. BUT, you are discussing TWO subjects.
PAUL was teaching HOW we are saved not by any thing we can do even the Law. We are saved by Grace by Faith.
JAMES is teaching that SAVED we must LIVE IT and show our works and obedience.
Paul is discussing getting saved.
James is discussing LIVING a Christian life.
AND THEY AGREE!
PAUL was teaching HOW we are saved not by any thing we can do even the Law. We are saved by Grace by Faith.
JAMES is teaching that SAVED we must LIVE IT and show our works and obedience.
Paul is discussing getting saved.
James is discussing LIVING a Christian life.
AND THEY AGREE!
J
jocor
Guest
I agree. That is basically the gist of what I said in my conclusion in post #3:
In conclusion, the Apostle Paul taught justification/righteousness must initially be imputed to a person from Yahweh through/by faith. That faith should then produce the fruit of good works which is a righteousness in the sight of man spoken of by the Apostle James. The righteousness imputed by Yahweh as a gift is the only righteousness unto eternal life.
The first step towards salvation is receiving Yeshua as Savior. Then Yahweh will impute righteousness to us as a gift by faith. After that, we produce the fruit of that righteousness which is our good works.
James shows us the principle of how faith operates or functions.
Whether faith for salvation or anything else.
Faith must have a corresponding act, or action, or work, of obedience, otherwise your faith is dead, and can not produce the intended result, whether salvation or healing or anything.
Just like a body, without the spirit is dead, and does not function it produce anything.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2;21-25
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Just got here.
Of course you and Croc7801 are correct.
It does bring up the question "what is works?"
I'd say that after we're saved and love the Lord, NOTHING is works because we're happy to do what we can and what He gives us strength to do. It could be doing your job well, or giving clothing to the poor, or being a good wife and mother (the most important job IMO!!).
Before we're saved, everything seems like work.
Of course, we could "work" all we want to, it won't save. I do think, though, that works could BRING to salvation. IOW, a person who does good works is more likely to be the type who might "hear" the word of God (with the heart) and come to a saving belief. Not in the sense that the work itself will save.
Only faith through grace saves. Ephesians 2:8
Wondering
RevSRE
Supporter
As I see this "works" is a reference to "I CAN DO IT MYSELF, I can come to salvation by MY good works." It i snot I think talking about actually "WORKING" as we think making a living, or doing a work project. Salvation IS A GIFT.
The idea “saved By Grace through faith” is one of the most precious gifts we can receive. Ro.3:29 Being justified by faith by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus starts a life that we give to Him. Salvation is a gift, we did not plan it, we did not earn it, and we cannot do anything to deserve it. It is a free gift.
However, It is a starting point not the destination.
When you are born a citizen, it is not by your choice or work. You are a citizen by the position and preparation of others. Citizenship has responsibilities. There are things a citizen must do. There are things a citizen may not do. In order to be a citizen one must live by the legal and social moirés of citizenship. There are things that must be done.
This is also true of being saved. Christian living has responsibilities. There are actions we must take. We are to live in the spirit. We are to be an example, We MUST witness to the lost and lead the world to Jesus, and many more things we must do. There are things we cannot do. There are things we should not want to do any longer if we live close to God in grace. This is what we call Christian Living, separate dedicated to God. There are new Christians that just met the Savior and there are older saints that have lived for Him for many years. Each person will hear these ideas a little different depending on where you are in your Christian journey.
- There are the works of the law of Moses.
- The works that earn wages.
- The works of righteousness. Righteous works inspired by the Spirit
- The work of faith. [ work here = the effort obedience requires] The obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV
When a person hear's the Gospel preached by a person sent by the Lord, and respond with the corresponding act of obedience, then they are "saved" by faith, having now the hope of salvation.
The Gospel: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
One of the greatest things our present day culture in America has lost, and desperately needs is to understand is the Gospel, and what it means.
The Gospel is God's call to humanity to come out of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son.
The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to come out of hiding...
So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” Genesis 3:10
Repent is the command of the Gospel, that is to be obeyed from the heart.
Not repent of your sins.
Repent means to turn to God, to the kingdom of God, and it's King.
If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord, to Jesus Christ as Lord.
The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
Peter did not say "repent of your sins".
A person can not "stop sinning" without the born again new Nature empowered by the Holy Spirit.
The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.
- This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.
15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18
Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14
It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.
- The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you have served.
- The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to "come out of hiding" in darkness, and to come into the light, the kingdom of light.
JLB
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J
jocor
Guest
In keeping with the OP, "works" refers to good deeds that are the fruit of faith or bad deeds that stem from a lack of faith (works of the flesh). Those good works which we are ordained to walk in include things like feeding the hungry or clothing the poor and works of the law like not committing adultery, or idolatry, or Sabbath breaking, or murder, etc. Paul and James agree on this.
That may be true of Gentiles, but it may not be true of Jews. That was the problem Paul was dealing with because many Jews believed works saved them.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
JohnDB
Member
OK.
I'm not going to sound all theological here...
I have met both types of individuals.
I have met people who claim Christ but have no fruits of the claim whatsoever except a said desire to yet again get into the habit of attending church services.
And while in church I have met individuals who can quote verbatim almost their favorite pet theology and then tell of the latest news on the new books out there of Christian life. But when it comes time to show up to do anything about working with others on a faith based project they are MIA.
Again...both are in the same condition of Spiritual poverty.
I'm not going to sound all theological here...
I have met both types of individuals.
I have met people who claim Christ but have no fruits of the claim whatsoever except a said desire to yet again get into the habit of attending church services.
And while in church I have met individuals who can quote verbatim almost their favorite pet theology and then tell of the latest news on the new books out there of Christian life. But when it comes time to show up to do anything about working with others on a faith based project they are MIA.
Again...both are in the same condition of Spiritual poverty.
Paul says -
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Galatians 5:2
The law mandated physical circumcision before anything else. So without becoming physically circumcised, keeping the Sabbath, or or any of the other commandments contained in ordinances were useless.
IOW, there wasn't an option for physical circumcision, or circumcision of the heart, in the law of Moses.
The 10 commandments did not begin with Moses, as they were from the beginning, and will always be commandments of God's Kingdom.
Lucifer broke the First and Fifth Commandment before man was created.
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15
The law died with the body of Christ, being nailed to the cross, that we now serve the law of Christ, He who is risen from the dead.
Romans 7:4
JLB