Bible Study Harmonizing James and Paul

[JLB]

Tongues is not a gift that is given to everyone.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another diverse kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.​

Mark 16:16-18 does not mean every single believer receives every single gift of the Spirit and walks in them at all times. The gifts are given to whoever and whenever the Spirit chooses.

You should be ashamed of yourself for bringing into question whether or not I have the Holy Spirit simply because you are unable to successfully oppose my doctrine.

Everyone who receives the Holy Spirit, has evidence that is seen and heard.

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:4,33

again

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and theyreceived the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

again

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

again

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

Each instance when these believers received the Holy Spirit, people saw and heard the evidence.

The evidence is speaking in tongues that is seen or heard.

Believers who receive the Holy Spirit, speak in new tongues.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

This is for all believers.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit giftings, which is different than
receiving the Holy Spirit.

Two completely different things.

• Nine different gifts of the Spirit.

• Receiving the Holy Spirit Himself, with evidence that is seen or heard.

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Not everybody receives the gift of tongues:

"8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."

27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations,various kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

(1 Corinthians 12:8-11, 27-30 NASB italics in original, bold by me)

The answer to his rhetorical question of course is, 'no, all do not speak with tongues'. Only some do, as God as seen fit to gift them for that. Not being one that has the gift of tongues hardly means they don't have the Spirit. It means they have not been given that gift, but a different gift. Not all of us are the same part of the body (where would the body be?), but rather God has distributed the various functions of his body as he has willed that.

Amen to this.
I have never spoken in tongues - am I lost? Tongues were necessary at the beginning.
The apostles found they could speak to those present who did not know Hebrew or Greek. Acts 2:4-11
Every gift is still present today, but not everyone has every gift. It's a gift, not a necessity.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyone who receives the Holy Spirit, has evidence that is seen and heard.

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:4,33

again

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

again

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

again

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

Each instance when these believers received the Holy Spirit, people saw and heard the evidence.

The evidence is speaking in tongues that is seen or heard.

Believers who receive the Holy Spirit, speak in new tongues.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

This is for all believers.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit giftings, which is different than
receiving the Holy Spirit.

Two completely different things.

• Nine different gifts of the Spirit.

• Receiving the Holy Spirit Himself, with evidence that is seen or heard.

JLB

If it's two different things then why is speaking in other languages listed in 1 Corinthians 12 as a gift?
You mean to say that everyone you know who is born again speaks in tongues?
Or are you saying they're born again but not baptized into the spirit?
What if you'd like the second but it just never happens?
Do I not have the Holy Spirit indwelling?

Wondering

 

[jocor]

[QUOTE="Jethro Bodine]We cross posted.
I hate when that happens. [/QUOTE]
Yes, but you added the crucial passage below that I didn't.

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations,various kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

(1 Corinthians 12:8-11, 27-30 NASB italics in original, bold by me)

 

[JLB]

You mean to say that everyone you know who is born again speaks in tongues?
What if you'd like the second but it just never happens?
Do I not have the Holy Spirit indwelling?

Wondering

If it's two different things then why is speaking in other languages listed in 1 Corinthians 12 as a gift?

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit Himself, for the first time, with evidence that can be seen and/or heard.
2. Operating in the gifts of the Spirit you have received in a church setting.

One person Speaks in Tongues and another person who operates in the gift of Interpretation of Tongues, gives the interpretation, for the benefit of those present in a church setting.

Prophesy is the same thing, with only one person prophesying a message in a language everyone can understand.

Many times on mission trips, when there are believers present in a ministry setting, along with those who have come to hear the message and are still unbelievers, the Holy Spirit will begin to move in Tongues and Interpretation of Tongues, so that everyone in there own language can hear what the Lord is saying, even though the one speaking may not understand that language, but the unbelievers in the meeting will hear in their own language and be convinced that God is surely among the group.

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 1 Corinthians 14:22

Praying in the Spirit [Tongues] is for the individual to have there own prayer language, in which they speak to God, and are assisted by the Holy Spirit when praying for others.

It is also for the individual to edify themselves and build themselves up on there most holy faith.

I usually pray like this, in tongues for a while before I go into my prayer closet to worship God, as this calms my mind, and builds up my spirit, as this helps to focus my mind and heart on the Lord, whereby I am worshiping Him in the Spirit.


The longer I pray in the Spirit like this, the more quality my worship time and prayer time is with the Lord.

This is done in private, in my prayer closet.

Also, when my wife and I pray together, while I'm praying, she softly praying in tongues, then it will shift to her praying, with me softly praying in tongues.

We are more fruitful in our prayer time this way.


Let's move this discussion to PM.


JLB

 

[JLB]

[QUOTE="Jethro Bodine]We cross posted.
I hate when that happens.

Yes, but you added the crucial passage below that I didn't.

Do you know the difference between praying in the spirit, that is to say, praying in tongues, and speaking in tongues in a public setting with the following interpretation of tongues?

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 1 Corinthians 14:14-15

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, Jude 20


JLB

 

[jocor]

Everyone who receives the Holy Spirit, has evidence that is seen and heard.

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:4,33

again

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and theyreceived the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

again

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

again

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

Each instance when these believers received the Holy Spirit, people saw and heard the evidence.

The evidence is speaking in tongues that is seen or heard.

Believers who receive the Holy Spirit, speak in new tongues.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

This is for all believers.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit giftings, which is different than
receiving the Holy Spirit.

Two completely different things.

• Nine different gifts of the Spirit.

• Receiving the Holy Spirit Himself, with evidence that is seen or heard.

JLB

Out of the thousands of people that received the Holy Spirit throughout the Book of Acts, we only find three accounts of people speaking in tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit (a total of, at the most, 140 people). Here are four accounts where we are not told tongues accompanied those that were saved; Acts 2:41; 8:5-25; 16:31-34; 21:20.

If you insist that anyone receiving the Holy Spirit MUST speak in tongues as auditory evidence, then you MUST also believe that they MUST begin prophesying as well as per Acts 19:6 and have the visual evidence of cloven tongues as of fire sitting atop their heads as per Acts 2:4. Did you and all your tongue speaking buddies prophesy at the time they received the Holy Spirit and have visible cloven tongues as of fire atop your heads? If not, then your teaching is not sound.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit Himself, for the first time, with evidence that can be seen and/or heard.
2. Operating in the gifts of the Spirit you have received in a church setting.

Okay, if I understand you correctly, all born again people have #1, while only some born again people have #2. If this is true, I know no born again people....not even myself. I would have to think very hard about who I knew in past Full Gospel churches that were really born again. I can't think of any off hand who had this so-called public display of tongues, only lots of people who had what you call the private prayer language of tongues. But since none of them had the public display of tongues they were not born again.

 

[JLB]

Okay, if I understand you correctly, all born again people have #1, while only some born again people have #2. If this is true, I know no born again people....not even myself.

All born again people have received the Spirit of Christ, and are joined to the Lord, and are one spirit with Him.

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17
• Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

• Receiving the Spirit of Christ, comes as a result of believing.
• Receiving the Holy Spirit comes after a person believes, and has evidence that is seen and/or heard.

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Acts 19:2

• Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

• While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:44-46

• Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19
  

... when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given...


When the Holy Spirit is received, there is evidence that can be seen and/or heard.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Out of the thousands of people that received the Holy Spirit throughout the Book of Acts, we only find two accounts of people speaking in tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit (a total of, at the most, 132 people). Here are four accounts where we are not told tongues accompanied those that were saved; Acts 2:41; 8:5-25; 16:31-34; 21:20.

Acts 2:41;

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:40-42

This is referring to Baptism in water.

The Apostles doctrine included the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 19:1-6, Acts 8:14-18

8:5-25;

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
Acts 8:14-18

16:31-34;

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. Acts 16:31-34

This said their were Baptized. This is not a reference to Receiving the Holy Spirit.

Look at the language of my post's and you will see I use the phrase "receive the Holy Spirit".

You have mixed up, Baptism in water, or Baptized into Christ, with "receiving the Holy Spirit".
Which can also be called [Baptism with the Holy Spirit], however so as not to confuse this controversial teaching, I use the phrase that the scripture uses, which is "receiving the Holy Spirit".

21:20.

20 And when they heard it,they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; Acts 21:20

This scripture does not mention Baptism or receiving the Holy Spirit.

If you insist that anyone receiving the Holy Spirit MUST speak in tongues as auditory evidence,

The scriptures I posted show that there was evidence that is seen and/or heard. when a person received the Holy Spirit.


Are you saying that the Baptism in water is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is not a separate baptism?



JLB

 

[jocor]

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:40-42

This is referring to Baptism in water.

The Apostles doctrine included the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 19:1-6, Acts 8:14-18

I agree about the Apostle's doctrine. You are assuming that tongues was seen, but the text does not say that.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
Acts 8:14-18

Again, you are assuming what they "saw" was tongues. How do we know they didn't see cloven tongues as of fire on their heads?

You have mixed up, Baptism in water, or Baptized into Christ, with "receiving the Holy Spirit".
Which can also be called [Baptism with the Holy Spirit], however so as not to confuse this controversial teaching, I use the phrase that the scripture uses, which is "receiving the Holy Spirit".

I posted those verses because all those that were baptized eventually received the Holy Spirit. Yet, we are not told they spoke in tongues. You are assuming that.

Are you saying that the Baptism in water is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is not a separate baptism?

No.

You have not addressed 1 Cor 12:4-11, 30. This was written about 20-30 years after Pentecost.

Nor have you told me if you prophesied or had cloven tongues like fire on your head when you received the Holy Spirit. Be honest.

 

[JLB]

I agree about the Apostle's doctrine. You are assuming that tongues was seen, but the text does not say that.

The Apostles demonstrated their doctrine.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
Acts 8:14-18


Simon saw evidence the Holy Spirit was given.

When the Holy Spirit is received, there is evidence that is seen and/or heard.

Again, you are assuming what they "saw" was tongues. How do we know they didn't see cloven tongues as of fire on their heads?

Simon saw evidence the Holy Spirit was given.

When the Holy Spirit is received, there is evidence that is seen and/or heard.

I posted those verses because all those that were baptized eventually received the Holy Spirit. Yet, we are not told they spoke in tongues. You are assuming that.

Write out the scriptures you posted before, and let's examine where it says they received the Holy Spirit.

Nor have you told me if you prophesied or had cloven tongues like fire on your head when you received the Holy Spirit. Be honest.

I was 14 years old and had no idea what all was going on. I couldn't see the top of my head, but I spoke in tongues when the man of God laid hands upon me.

You have not addressed 1 Cor 12:4-11, 30. This was written about 20-30 years after Pentecost.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills...Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1 Corinthians 12;4-11,30


The nine gifts of the Spirit that are manifested through a believer, as the Spirit wills, specifically tongues and interpretation, is for a public meeting.

Operating in these "gifts" of the Spirit in a Church setting, as the Spirit wills, is different than receiving the Holy Spirit, for the first time, with the evidence that is seen or heard.

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15

Praying with a "prayer language" or praying in tongues is for all believers.

Tongues and interpretation is a manifestation of the Spirit for the benefit of all in a public meeting.

One is for your prayer time, the other is for public ministry.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Everyone who receives the Holy Spirit, has evidence that is seen and heard.

OK. You have derailed this thread long enough. Moving on.