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Has the church replaced Israel?

Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
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People talk about this.
I can't find any Scripture to support it.
Is there any out there that you know of?
 
Not really "replaced," no. But God did send His son to Israel. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles. And it is God's plan, since they rejected Him who was sent, to now go to us (the Gentiles) to provoke Israel to jealousy. It also has the added benefit of showing God's goodness to one and all. Truly He is no respecter of persons. We (the wild olive branch) were grafted into the cultured. But that does not mean that we replace. No.

In fact, we are cautioned to not think too highly of ourselves, to not have a haughty spirit.

Paul speaks at length about this in Romans chapters 9-11. But that's not the only place. The story of Ruth works as a picture of the Church and Israel too. I think that in part, what Paul was writing about was written to counter the Gentile arrogance that became Replacement Theology.
 
There are many aspects to Israel, so it is simplistic to say the Church replaced Israel without explaining what it means. Those Christians that assert this are usually focused on claiming the benefits rather than assuming the responsibilities of representing God on earth.
 
People talk about this.
I can't find any Scripture to support it.
Is there any out there that you know of?
We have been grafted into the Olive Branch and share in the roots. God didn't plant a whole new tree, and he is able to graft back in those who are natural branches along with us the wild branches.
 
We have been grafted into the Olive Branch and share in the roots. God didn't plant a whole new tree, and he is able to graft back in those who are natural branches along with us the wild branches.
But there's a thing called replacement theology.
They say the promises to Israel now belong to the church.
What about that?
I don't see how that is true.
 
But there's a thing called replacement theology.
They say the promises to Israel now belong to the church.
What about that?
I don't see how that is true.
We share in the original Promises given to Israel through Abraham, as we are his children by faith. God has united all his people in the Messiah. The Messiah was the end purpose of the Law, and the end purpose of Israel.

To bring about the restoration of creation and deal with the problem of sin. Israel hasn't been replaced, but rather summed up in the Messiah and we therefore share in that original root as a "wild olive branch."

I think Paul's Olive Tree analogy in Romans 11 best represents the theology. It isn't replacement theology, it's grafting IN theology.

Certainly there are nuances, and it is a huge subject, but so many of the errors in Church History come from replacement theology.
 
We share in the original Promises given to Israel through Abraham, as we are his children by faith. God has united all his people in the Messiah. The Messiah was the end purpose of the Law, and the end purpose of Israel.

To bring about the restoration of creation and deal with the problem of sin. Israel hasn't been replaced, but rather summed up in the Messiah and we therefore share in that original root as a "wild olive branch."

I think Paul's Olive Tree analogy in Romans 11 best represents the theology. It isn't replacement theology, it's grafting IN theology.

Certainly there are nuances, and it is a huge subject, but so many of the errors in Church History come from replacement theology.
Thank you.
Maybe you can answer some more.
God made promises to the Israelites.
Many of these promises don't fit the Gentiles.
It seems that God still has to deal with the Jews that is separate from the Gentiles.
Did the Jews coming back to their land in 1948 fulfill a prophesy?
If it did, it was separate from the Gentiles.
Replacement theology wouldn't fit.
It seems there is a great revival of Jews in the Book of Revelation that is separate from the Gentiles.
I don't know the verses but I remember there being promises made to the Jews that could not be to the Gentiles.
Am I right about these things or am I way off base?
 
We have been grafted into the Olive Branch and share in the roots. God didn't plant a whole new tree, and he is able to graft back in those who are natural branches along with us the wild branches.
We share in the original Promises given to Israel through Abraham, as we are his children by faith. God has united all his people in the Messiah. The Messiah was the end purpose of the Law, and the end purpose of Israel.

To bring about the restoration of creation and deal with the problem of sin. Israel hasn't been replaced, but rather summed up in the Messiah and we therefore share in that original root as a "wild olive branch."

I think Paul's Olive Tree analogy in Romans 11 best represents the theology. It isn't replacement theology, it's grafting IN theology.

Certainly there are nuances, and it is a huge subject, but so many of the errors in Church History come from replacement theology.

:goodpost
 
Thank you.
Maybe you can answer some more.
God made promises to the Israelites.
Many of these promises don't fit the Gentiles.
There are specific historical promises, and ones that pertain directly to the Jews.

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:26b-27 (ESV)

Here is a direct promise to the Jewish people.

It is referenced in response to this text.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, Romans 11:25-26a (ESV)

I think there is a specific promise though referenced most of the time, which is the promised inheritance. Which is not the right to the land of Israel, but the whole Earth. As God's plan was to use Israel and Abraham's decedent (Jesus the Messiah) to bless the whole world, and in so doing make a New Heaven and New Earth. God wants to reconcile and restore all creation. Us participating in that promised inheritance is all a part of that, and it is something that is central to NT Theology.

Did the Jews coming back to their land in 1948 fulfill a prophesy?
If it did, it was separate from the Gentiles.
Replacement theology wouldn't fit.
I'm not too sure, I don't major on prophecy, simply because so many people make such huge claims that usually don't amount to much. I think at the very least it is setting the stage for the fulfillment of additional prophecy.

It seems there is a great revival of Jews in the Book of Revelation that is separate from the Gentiles.
Indeed, the whole of the NT is consistent with this message.

I don't know the verses but I remember there being promises made to the Jews that could not be to the Gentiles.
Am I right about these things or am I way off base?
Totally on point brother. :)
 
I would have to say the answer to the OP is both yes and no. I would say yes in the physical aspect that the church buildings and cathedrals have replaced the temple worship in a form, and have also inherited the idolatry that came with it. But in the truer sense of the church, I would have to say no; for the true church is the body of Christ. Since the time of the exodus, the true church was offered to the children of Israel, but they chose to follow Moses instead.

Jeremiah 31 is chapter that prophesied of the new covenant that God promised to the children of Israel. It is the covenant prophesied of in Daniel 9:27. It is the covenant that Christ confirmed and sealed in his blood on the cross. But I wanted to point out something interesting just to give it some consideration.

Jeremiah 31:27-30
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah
with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them,
to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down,
and to destroy, and to afflict;
so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.

I has always seemed apparent to me in some way that under the old covenant the nation was bound to the covenant as a whole. It was always the Nation of Israel that was punished for the transgressions of the people. If I remember correctly, I believe the nation was punished for David's transgression in numbering the people. The destruction of the temple and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the final judgement upon a people, and a covenant nation. Here Jeremiah seems to call out a distinction in the new covenant, in that now instead of a nation, each person shall die for his own iniquity.
 
I would have to say the answer to the OP is both yes and no. I would say yes in the physical aspect that the church buildings and cathedrals have replaced the temple worship in a form, and have also inherited the idolatry that came with it. But in the truer sense of the church, I would have to say no; for the true church is the body of Christ. Since the time of the exodus, the true church was offered to the children of Israel, but they chose to follow Moses instead.

Jeremiah 31 is chapter that prophesied of the new covenant that God promised to the children of Israel. It is the covenant prophesied of in Daniel 9:27. It is the covenant that Christ confirmed and sealed in his blood on the cross. But I wanted to point out something interesting just to give it some consideration.

Jeremiah 31:27-30
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah
with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them,
to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down,
and to destroy, and to afflict;
so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.

I has always seemed apparent to me in some way that under the old covenant the nation was bound to the covenant as a whole. It was always the Nation of Israel that was punished for the transgressions of the people. If I remember correctly, I believe the nation was punished for David's transgression in numbering the people. The destruction of the temple and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the final judgement upon a people, and a covenant nation. Here Jeremiah seems to call out a distinction in the new covenant, in that now instead of a nation, each person shall die for his own iniquity.

I agree, I don't see a separate nation of Israel as an Israel that is based on heredity by blood. That was the covenant God said they broke as a nation.
I also agree that they were judged as a nation in for the final time in the destruction of AD70.
But I do see many, many more Jews receiving the Messiah on an individual bases. We see this happening now and growing.
 
As with all things one must take into account every aspect of the topic at hand. like the old debate about where we go in death (which seldom takes into account that we are a threefold being). Part (the soul) ceases to exist as it is a buffer between the two realities of the spiritual and the physical. The body sleeps (lifeless unconscious and decays), the spirit goes to heaven with Jesus or to sheol for unbelievers...

THIS topic must also include all the aspects of Israel. Physical Israel, the elect / chosen people of this life. Spirit Israel the elect / chosen people of heaven.

Romans 9:1-6 (NASB95)
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Clearly the distinction is between spiritual and physical.

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The Church does not replace anyone. It is grafted into the spiritual Israel and in fact is Spirit Israel though most will not believe it.
 
The vehicle the Church and the vehicle Spirit Israel are one and the same and were God's intended outcome first for the physical Jew to convert to and then the physical Gentile to convert to.

Ephesians 2:11-21 (NASB95)
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

The greatest hindrance for this understanding are Jewish pride and Gen tile prejudice.
 
Thank you.
Maybe you can answer some more.
God made promises to the Israelites.
Many of these promises don't fit the Gentiles.
It seems that God still has to deal with the Jews that is separate from the Gentiles.
Did the Jews coming back to their land in 1948 fulfill a prophesy?
If it did, it was separate from the Gentiles.
Replacement theology wouldn't fit.
It seems there is a great revival of Jews in the Book of Revelation that is separate from the Gentiles.
I don't know the verses but I remember there being promises made to the Jews that could not be to the Gentiles.
Am I right about these things or am I way off base?
First a congratulations to Sparrowhawk on the return and an offering of prayer for that broken sternum, keep that pillow very close.

Now, yes a prophecy was fulfilled. Remember Jesus cursing the fig tree when it had no fruit for Him to pick and to eat. He was asked following why and how would the people know when things, prophesied were about to happen. Jesus assured them that when the Fig Tree (Israel in this writer' s and many other' s opinions) it would be the season for these things to happen. On May 14, 1948 the Fig Tree, Israel, bloomed or was reborn in a single day.

This replacement theology that is gaining popularity is heresy and avoided by me and my house.
 
I would have to say the answer to the OP is both yes and no. I would say yes in the physical aspect that the church buildings and cathedrals have replaced the temple worship in a form, and have also inherited the idolatry that came with it. But in the truer sense of the church, I would have to say no; for the true church is the body of Christ. Since the time of the exodus, the true church was offered to the children of Israel, but they chose to follow Moses instead.

I'm not there at all ER.The temple of God is not present in the Churches Buildings except there be, at least, one Saved Person there. Empty the building and the Temple of god is not there. i.e. when Jesus told them that if they tore this (Him) temple down He woulld rebuild it in three days. there is more there than the prophecy of His resurrection. He, as the human follower of God the Father, is the Temple. In the same manor, we, the followers of Jesus, who followed the Father, are the living Temples of God.
 
As with all things one must take into account every aspect of the topic at hand. like the old debate about where we go in death (which seldom takes into account that we are a threefold being). Part (the soul) ceases to exist as it is a buffer between the two realities of the spiritual and the physical. The body sleeps (lifeless unconscious and decays), the spirit goes to heaven with Jesus or to sheol for unbelievers...

THIS topic must also include all the aspects of Israel. Physical Israel, the elect / chosen people of this life. Spirit Israel the elect / chosen people of heaven.

Romans 9:1-6 (NASB95)
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Clearly the distinction is between spiritual and physical.

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The Church does not replace anyone. It is grafted into the spiritual Israel and in fact is Spirit Israel though most will not believe it.

The One New Man :)
 
People talk about this.
I can't find any Scripture to support it.
Is there any out there that you know of?
You will not find any scripture to support the claim that the Church has replaced Israel. The Church and Israel are two very distinct entities.

The Church~~Heavenly claim

Israel~~Earthly claim

The new heavens and the new earth are set up for the church and Israel respectively.


(1) Israel will be a nation forever. (2) Israel will possess a significant portion of land forever. (3) Israel will have a King ruler over her forever. (4) Israel will have a throne from which Christ will rule forever. (5) Israel will have a kingdom forever.
God will make a New Covenant with them in the future. As a result of this New Covenant, there will be abiding blessings.
 
You will not find any scripture to support the claim that the Church has replaced Israel. The Church and Israel are two very distinct entities.

The Church~~Heavenly claim

Israel~~Earthly claim

The new heavens and the new earth are set up for the church and Israel respectively.


(1) Israel will be a nation forever. (2) Israel will possess a significant portion of land forever. (3) Israel will have a King ruler over her forever. (4) Israel will have a throne from which Christ will rule forever. (5) Israel will have a kingdom forever.
God will make a New Covenant with them in the future. As a result of this New Covenant, there will be abiding blessings.

Where did you get this list 1-5 from or maybe it's your own but I'd like to see the scriptural bases for each one if you can provide them or a link. Thanks glory.
 
I'm not there at all ER.The temple of God is not present in the Churches Buildings except there be, at least, one Saved Person there. Empty the building and the Temple of god is not there. i.e. when Jesus told them that if they tore this (Him) temple down He woulld rebuild it in three days. there is more there than the prophecy of His resurrection. He, as the human follower of God the Father, is the Temple. In the same manor, we, the followers of Jesus, who followed the Father, are the living Temples of God.

Bill, I think you read something into my post that was never there. I know fully well that the temple of God resides in our hearts. I did not say that the church has become the temple. What I said is the the church has taken after the former in a fashion, most notably in that the church has adopted the same idolatry that plagued the temple.

I agree, a church building is nothing but an empty building; But why then do the people treat them as if they are holy ground, or that they are sanctified? Why are they filled with pictures and statues so that you might idolize the figure? Why do other certain people seek out a church specifically for vandalism? Is it not because they have been conditioned to see it as God's sanctuary, and their act of vandalism is an act of defiance in the face of God.

If we are the temple of God, then the Spirit of Christ dwells with us. So if the Spirit of Christ be with you, why do you look for another?
 
Bill, I think you read something into my post that was never there. I know fully well that the temple of God resides in our hearts. I did not say that the church has become the temple. What I said is the the church has taken after the former in a fashion, most notably in that the church has adopted the same idolatry that plagued the temple.

I agree, a church building is nothing but an empty building; But why then do the people treat them as if they are holy ground, or that they are sanctified? Why are they filled with pictures and statues so that you might idolize the figure? Why do other certain people seek out a church specifically for vandalism? Is it not because they have been conditioned to see it as God's sanctuary, and their act of vandalism is an act of defiance in the face of God.

If we are the temple of God, then the Spirit of Christ dwells with us. So if the Spirit of Christ be with you, why do you look for another?
My bad then, sorry.
 
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