Has the church replaced Israel?

[Drew]

People talk about this.
I can't find any Scripture to support it.
Is there any out there that you know of?

How about Romans 11 - there is a lengthy allegory of the olive tree composed of both Jewish and Gentile branches. Paul seems to think in terms of a single family (the olive tree). I believe there is Biblical support for the notion that the special status of the nation of Israel came to an end through the climactic work of Jesus on the cross, not least that text in Galatians to the effect that there is "neither Jew nor Greek" among those in Christ. How is this not a clear implication that the special status o the Jew has ended?

 

[Drew]

You will not find any scripture to support the claim that the Church has replaced Israel. The Church and Israel are two very distinct entities.

The Church~~Heavenly claim

Israel~~Earthly claim

The new heavens and the new earth are set up for the church and Israel respectively.


(1) Israel will be a nation forever. (2) Israel will possess a significant portion of land forever. (3) Israel will have a King ruler over her forever. (4) Israel will have a throne from which Christ will rule forever. (5) Israel will have a kingdom forever.
God will make a New Covenant with them in the future. As a result of this New Covenant, there will be abiding blessings.

I have never heard anyone express this position before. It seems as though you see a "new earth" as the dedicated abode for Israel, to the exclusion of the rest of us Gentiles. I really doubt such a view can be Biblically supported. At the end of Revelation, we see heaven and earth fusing into one.

I will lay my cards on the table as succinctly as I can: I believe the basic Biblical narrative can be described thus:

1. Adam falls and sin and death enter the world;
2. God appoints a special people - Israel - to fix the problem of sin and death (thus we have Jesus saying "salvation is of the Jews");
3. Israel does not fulfill her destiny to solve the problem;
4. Jesus enters history and, acting as Israel's proxy, solves the problem for her on the cross;
5. With the problem solved, Israel as a distinct entity is no longer needed.

There are many details that need to be filled in, but that is how I see things.

 

[Free]

How about Romans 11 - there is a lengthy allegory of the olive tree composed of both Jewish and Gentile branches. Paul seems to think in terms of a single family (the olive tree). I believe there is Biblical support for the notion that the special status of the nation of Israel came to an end through the climactic work of Jesus on the cross, not least that text in Galatians to the effect that there is "neither Jew nor Greek" among those in Christ. How is this not a clear implication that the special status o the Jew has ended?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

How about Romans 11 - there is a lengthy allegory of the olive tree composed of both Jewish and Gentile branches. Paul seems to think in terms of a single family (the olive tree). I believe there is Biblical support for the notion that the special status of the nation of Israel came to an end through the climactic work of Jesus on the cross, not least that text in Galatians to the effect that there is "neither Jew nor Greek" among those in Christ. How is this not a clear implication that the special status o the Jew has ended?

Did you forget to read the whole passage in Romans 11?

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:23-24 (ESV)

And then right afterwards.

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, Romans 11:26a (ESV)

God has a specific plan for the Jewish people, and that didn't end with the coming of the Messiah.

 

[Deborah13]

I have never heard anyone express this position before. It seems as though you see a "new earth" as the dedicated abode for Israel, to the exclusion of the rest of us Gentiles. I really doubt such a view can be Biblically supported. At the end of Revelation, we see heaven and earth fusing into one.

I will lay my cards on the table as succinctly as I can: I believe the basic Biblical narrative can be described thus:

1. Adam falls and sin and death enter the world;
2. God appoints a special people - Israel - to fix the problem of sin and death (thus we have Jesus saying "salvation is of the Jews");
3. Israel does not fulfill her destiny to solve the problem;
4. Jesus enters history and, acting as Israel's proxy, solves the problem for her on the cross;
5. With the problem solved, Israel as a distinct entity is no longer needed.

There are many details that need to be filled in, but that is how I see things.

Did you forget to read the whole passage in Romans 11?

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:23-24 (ESV)

And then right afterwards.

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, Romans 11:26a (ESV)

God has a specific plan for the Jewish people, and that didn't end with the coming of the Messiah.

I too believe God has wonderful things in store for the Jewish people but Not as corporate Israel.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I too believe God has wonderful things in store for the Jewish people but Not as corporate Israel.

But can you say we are now Israel?
That is what replacement theology is saying.
Don't play around with words, say "we are now Israel".
I can't say it.

 

[Drew]

Here is a direct promise to the Jewish people.

It is referenced in response to this text.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, Romans 11:25-26a (ESV)

Some theologians, NT Wright for example, believe that the term "Israel" as used in this particular text is a reference to the Jew+Gentile church, not to the nation of Israel. Now I can anticipate the objection "Why would Paul use the word 'Israel' to denote anything other than the nation of Israel - wouldn't that be almost intentionally confusing"? Fair enough, good point.

For now, I will simply refer you to the thing in Galatians 6 where Paul uses the phrase "Israel of God" to rather clearly refer to the Jew + Gentile church.

 

[Drew]

Did you forget to read the whole passage in Romans 11?

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:23-24 (ESV)

Are you reading this as suggesting there are two trees? I cannot see how that works given what Paul has just written:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith

There seems to be only one tree, with both Jewish branches and Gentile branches.

So when Paul writes about Jewish branches being grafted back into their own tree, he is simply saying that the one tree was initially a "Jewish-only" tree, with the Gentiles now being grafted in to that one tree. The important point being that there is still only one tree. I think its most accurate to say something like this: God has ingathered the Gentiles, along with believing Jews into a single tree - the church. But this means there is really no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile in the grand purposes of God. And that means no special status for anybody.

I concede this is a complex issue, but I think the balance of the Biblical evidence supports the end of the special status of Israel at the cross. Not least, as I have previously argued in admittedly sketchy form, that Israel served a particular role in the grand plan of redemption. And that role was fulfilled at the cross; Israel, therefore, has finished her task and therefore no longer enjoys any special status.

And then right afterwards.

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, Romans 11:26a (ESV)

God has a specific plan for the Jewish people, and that didn't end with the coming of the Messiah.

I am very aware of this verse; as already implied, there is at least a plausible argument that Paul, as he does in Galatians 6, can use the term "Israel" to denote the Jew + Gentile church. Perhaps I will attempt to make the relevant argument in a forthcoming post.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Some theologians, NT Wright for example, believe that the term "Israel" as used in this particular text is a reference to the Jew+Gentile church, not to the nation of Israel. Now I can anticipate the objection "Why would Paul use the word 'Israel' to denote anything other than the nation of Israel - wouldn't that be almost intentionally confusing"? Fair enough, good point.

For now, I will simply refer you to the thing in Galatians 6 where Paul uses the phrase "Israel of God" to rather clearly refer to the Jew + Gentile church.

I don't find it helpful to run off to Galatians 6, when we are talking about Romans 11. Where Paul is answering a specific question regarding the people of Israel.. the Jews.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1 (ESV)

Notice how Paul's reasoning isn't, "no God hasn't rejected him people, because they're totally represented in a different way now." No, rather he appeals to the fact that he is himself an Israelite ethnically.

 

[jasonc]

oh lord. what will this future "isreal" be like? ancient isreal had gentiles in her. Urijah the Hittite, rachab the harlot, and others whom believe and become Hebrew by their faith in the God of isreal.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Are you reading this as suggesting there are two trees? I cannot see how that works given what Paul has just written:

Two trees? No.

There is one tree, which represents God's covenant people and the root is the covenant blessings. We Gentiles are grafted into that tree as a wild olive branch, and the natural branches (the Israelites) were broken off. He then goes on to say that these natural branches will be grafted back into their own tree.

There seems to be only one tree, with both Jewish branches and Gentile branches.

Yes, natural branches and wild branches.

The natural branches are Jews. The wild are Gentiles.

So when Paul writes about Jewish branches being grafted back into their own tree, he is simply saying that the one tree was initially a "Jewish-only" tree, with the Gentiles now being grafted in to that one tree. The important point being that there is still only one tree. I think its most accurate to say something like this: God has ingathered the Gentiles, along with believing Jews into a single tree - the church. But this means there is really no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile in the grand purposes of God. And that means no special status for anybody.

This would be false.

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:24 (ESV)

Notice his logic here, that if we Gentiles have been cut off from an unnatural tree and then grafted in, how much more will the natural branches be grafted into their own tree. He is arguing for the future inclusion of the Jewish people, not for the fact that there is a Remnant currently, but rather a future salvation when the fullness of the Gentiles comes.

I concede this is a complex issue, but I think the balance of the Biblical evidence supports the end of the special status of Israel at the cross. Not least, as I have previously argued in admittedly sketchy form, that Israel served a particular role in the grand plan of redemption. And that role was fulfilled at the cross; Israel, therefore, has finished her task and therefore no longer enjoys any special status.

The only problem with that is Romans 9-11. Where he states quite explicitly that they still have a particular role not only currently, but God turned to the Gentiles in order to bring them to jealousy.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may no receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32 (ESV)

 

[th1b.taylor]

But can you say we are now Israel?
That is what replacement theology is saying.
Don't play around with words, say "we are now Israel".
I can't say it.

AW,
You appear to be stuck in first gear. Several of us have explained thatb the teaching is heresy and not scriptural. So what is the scripture address for your quote so we can go and examine the context.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

AW,
You appear to be stuck in first gear. Several of us have explained thatb the teaching is heresy and not scriptural. So what is the scripture address for your quote so we can go and examine the context.

I'm not hearing that Bill.
It sounds like people are answering me without really be sure of themselves.
Also, I know people on this forum who believe in it that have not responded to this thread.
I was hoping they would.

 

[Deborah13]

But can you say we are now Israel?
That is what replacement theology is saying.
Don't play around with words, say "we are now Israel".
I can't say it.

No, replacement theology, which I think stinks, says that a Gentile church takes the place of Israel as the chosen people of God. The truth is, there isn't any such thing as a Gentile church! I see that whole theology as anti-Semitic.

There is one church, it is the Body of Christ, the ONE new man, not two. Jew and Gentile worshiping the one Messiah.

Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Psa 125:4 Do good, O Jehovah, to the good, And to the upright in their hearts.
Psa 125:5 As to those turning to their crooked ways, Jehovah causeth them to go with workers of iniquity. Peace on Israel!
Gal 6:15 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;
Gal 6:16 and as many as by this rule do walk--peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!

God says Israel are those who are upright in their hearts. Paul says one must be circumcised in the heart.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Messiah, the true Olive Tree.
Isa 11:1 And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.

I personally agree with many Christian and Greek scholars that if Paul is referring to the unsaved nation of Israel or worse separating the believers than he is making a statement that is contrary to everything he tried to clear up in the divisions in the Body of Christ. The word translated from the Greek as 'and' which is 'kai' could just as easily be translated as 'and so, even, etc.'. G2532 http://www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html

http://www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not hearing that Bill.
It sounds like people are answering me without really be sure of themselves.
Also, I know people on this forum who believe in it that have not responded to this thread.
I was hoping they would.

I don't know one person one this site that believes in "Replacement Theology". I'm not saying you are wrong but I just don't know of one.

 

[jasonc]

replacement theology would have to force isreal of the tanach to replaced with the word church. hmm not going there.

 

[Sparkey]

The One New Man

That, Deborah, is very well said.
Thank you.

 

[Sparkey]

But can you say we are now Israel?
That is what replacement theology is saying.
Don't play around with words, say "we are now Israel".
I can't say it.

Sweet allenwynne,

I can't speak for "us" but what I can say is that I have prevailed with God. In that manner I am isra-el --- >> I am also a "grabber" and rather sneaky in my love-trust. So I can say, in that manner, I am Yakov (Jacob). I have also experienced (in part) the very things that are spoken of in the bible regarding Sampson, regarding David the shepherd, David the king and david the PRIEST. But the one thing that I can not say is, "I am Jesus." He is altogether wonderful and beyond all compare. There is none like Him and all shall praise Him.

This shall not surprise us. The prophets inquired diligently what manner or to what end the Holy Spirit was dealing with them and it was show to them that what was happening was for our benefit. There's a scripture that says that, I'm not making it up.

Glory to God!

 

[gr8grace3]

I have never heard anyone express this position before. It seems as though you see a "new earth" as the dedicated abode for Israel, to the exclusion of the rest of us Gentiles. I really doubt such a view can be Biblically supported. At the end of Revelation, we see heaven and earth fusing into one.

I will lay my cards on the table as succinctly as I can: I believe the basic Biblical narrative can be described thus:

1. Adam falls and sin and death enter the world;
2. God appoints a special people - Israel - to fix the problem of sin and death (thus we have Jesus saying "salvation is of the Jews");
3. Israel does not fulfill her destiny to solve the problem;
4. Jesus enters history and, acting as Israel's proxy, solves the problem for her on the cross;
5. With the problem solved, Israel as a distinct entity is no longer needed.

There are many details that need to be filled in, but that is how I see things.

The biggest problem with this is the mentality that Israel is not a distinct entity and God has moved on to bigger and better things. It is not so and we NEED to see Israel as Gods chosen people. He is Just waiting on the full number of the church(anyone,Jew and gentile) to come in and then deal with His special people. The USA depends on Gods blessings for how we view Israel. And the deception is that Israel is no longer special to God and we no longer need to defend Her.

The covenant with Abraham was UNCONDITIONAL and will be fulfilled and it is everlasting.

Confined to the Jews~~
(Gen. 17:1-14)

Was everlasting~~
(1) “I will make from you a great nation” (National Posterity: Gen. 17:20; Spiritual Posterity: Gal. 3:6, 7, 29. (2) “I will bless you” (Temporal: Gen. 13:14-18; 15:18-21; 24:34-35; Spiritual: Gen. 15:6). (3) “And Make Your Name Great” (4) “And You Shall Be A Blessing” (Gal. 3:14). (5) “I Will Bless Them That Bless You” (6) “And Curse Them That Curse You” (7) “In You All the Families of the Earth Will Be Blessed” (Dt. 28:8-14; Is. 60:3-5, 11, 16). This covenant with Abraham was reaffirmed and confirmed after Abraham’s faith was tested (Gen. 22:15-18).

Israel did not fill her destiny the same as we would have not filled it. That is why we have Christ. But God is not going to toss Israel to the side the same way as most people have. And the same way most of the Church has in this day and age. It is soft and subtle, Most are sympathetic and evangelize to the Jew, but don't realize that God Sees The Jews and Israel as His distinct and special people.

 

[gr8grace3]

Most of the replies on this thread are replacement theology from what I read. Just masked and explained away in ambiguity.