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Has the church replaced Israel?

Yes, I have been met with illogical resistance so many times because I often present the idea that the Mosaic is, though not binding to the Saved Man, is the perfect model or picture of God, the standard the Saved Man should strive to attain. The first and ridicules reply is almost, without failure, we are not bound by the Mosaic Law. And of course that retort is true but it has nothing to do with what I said. It's just like the law against murder, some things make sense.
The Law is not the perfect model and picture of God. It was a temporary guardian in place to keep Israel on the path to the Messiah, and many of it's statutes were temporary and given for cultural reasons. For instance, the law about certificates of divorce, Jesus himself said it was given because of the hardness of their hearts. Who knows how many other commands were given in the Law for such reasons.

I'm not against the Law, but I don't see the reason for appealing to it as a perfect representation of what we need to do. Jesus is how we know love, not the law, and it is through him that we achieve the righteous requirement of the Law, which is to love genuinely.

Your other comments about "illogical" and "ridiculous*" replies to your remarks is unnecessary, and not representative of the love that God calls us to for the brothers.
 
The biggest problem with this is the mentality that Israel is not a distinct entity and God has moved on to bigger and better things. It is not so and we NEED to see Israel as Gods chosen people. He is Just waiting on the full number of the church(anyone,Jew and gentile) to come in and then deal with His special people. The USA depends on Gods blessings for how we view Israel. And the deception is that Israel is no longer special to God and we no longer need to defend Her.
Well, I think the Scriptures do indeed indicate that Israel no longer has special status. When you use language like "God has moved on to bigger and better things" you are subtly implying that God does not an unfolding plan with various stages. But it's clear that He does; presumably you agree that Jesus established a new covenant. So clearly God does indeed "move on", as it were.

And I would politely challenge your take that the USA (or any other nation) should give preferential treatment to Israel. Getting the theology correct matters, and I think it's an error to think that Israel retains special status; This error then translates into political policies that favour Israel.

The covenant with Abraham was UNCONDITIONAL and will be fulfilled and it is everlasting.
I will get back to you on this - I suspect that there may translation issues here. There are at least some cases where Bible translators have taken the Hebrew term denoting "an age" and rendered this as forever.

I believe the Scriptures to be inspired, but that translation can, and I suggest clearly does, sometime result in errors. More later, I hope.
 
Wow God's love.
Rod and staff.
The staff crook pulls us close and shows compassion.

The rod strikes discipline. In the NT church discipline is slow and uses fear with the goal of restoration.

eddif
 
Galatians 6 is indeed relevant as it establishes a precedence for Paul using the term "Israel" to denote a set of persons that is not exclusively Jewish in compositon.
Except that transposed usage makes no sense in the context. Usage is how we determine with what sense a word is used. Hence, the argument is not relevant unless one can exegetically argue that this is how Paul uses the term in Romans 9-11. I can argue definitively that it is not the case.

For Paul to affirm that God has not rejected his people does not force us to conclude that He still has a distinctive role for them.
Actually it does, and he goes even further than arguing for the elect remnant at the present time, but also a future salvation that comes at the fullness of the Gentiles. Have you read Romans 11 all the way through and really studied it? The answers are rather explicitly stated.

Shortly after writing this, Paul gives us the olive tree model where he describes how God will incorporate both Jew and Gentile into a single entity - the church. Paul's position is, I suggest, there is indeed a place for Jews in the church; it is not that ethnic Israel retains special status.
Where does he indicate that the Olive Tree is the Church? The Olive Tree is simply the Covenant People of God, built on the Covenant Promises of God. To this, the Jewish people are the natural branches, and we Gentiles are grafted in as wild olive shoots.

I believe that Paul invokes his ethnicity simply to say that Jews have not been written off by God. But that's not equivalent to an affirmation that they retain special status.
That's not all he says though, hence this isn't a proper interpretation.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Romans 11:11-12 (ESV)

The "they" is Israel, and they did not stumble in order that they might fall, but rather that through their trespass (the rejection of the Messiah) salvation has now come to the Gentiles. He even adds that this was done in order to make Israel jealous! We can see that this is ethnic Israel because it is distinguished against the Gentiles. Or else, how would the salvation of the Gentiles make the Church Jealous? (makes no sense to import the Galatians 6 sense)

If you'd like I can create a thread on Romans 11 and provide a full exposition that demonstrates my position.
 
Christians do not derive their idea of love from the Law, they derive it from Jesus.

By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 1 John 3:16 (ESV)

Indeed, we had to die to the Law and be joined to another, the resurrected Jesus Christ, in order for us to bear fruit for God. (See Romans 7)


The commandments are summed up in the single commandment to love one's neighbor, and love fulfills the Law since it does no wrong to the person. I don't see the point in looking back at the shadow as a reference point, when we have the Messiah right here to follow.


In the Mosiac Law, there is no forgiveness for murder. In the New Covenant of grace, there is forgiveness for all sins except for the sin against the Holy Spirit. Truly it is contrary to love, and is the outward expression of a hateful heart. However, I don't see how appealing to the Law here is all that helpful when we are to walk by the Spirit and not according to the letter.

I think it's helpful to know what the Law of Moses actually says and what actually happened in the OT, in discussions such as this.
How can one discuss it with someone who knows what is says if they themselves don't?
This is a simple example of what I mean......
Someone says, "Ah, just throw a saddle on that colt and buck him out." If I don't have knowledge about training a young horse how would I refute that statement? Even if I didn't like the idea, without knowledge I cannot make a viable case for why I don't agree.
 
Christians do not derive their idea of love from the Law, they derive it from Jesus.

I don't think I said that I NEEDED to derive my idea of love from the Law of Moses.
But I do NEED to derive my idea of love from the Law written on my heart by the Holy Spirit and from any writings that are made clear in the NT. Both from what Jesus said and from the apostles.

In the Mosiac Law, there is no forgiveness for murder.

Which clearly says to me that if one is a murder they Need a Savior.
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory (righteousness) of God."

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy
2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned (made righteous in Christ), except he strive lawfully.
2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

In the New Covenant of grace, there is forgiveness for all sins except for the sin against the Holy Spirit. Truly it is contrary to love, and is the outward expression of a hateful heart. However, I don't see how appealing to the Law here is all that helpful when we are to walk by the Spirit and not according to the letter.

No appealing to the law can justify or Sanctify, only the blood of Christ can do that.
 
Wow God's love.
Rod and staff.
The staff crook pulls us close and shows compassion.

The rod strikes discipline. In the NT church discipline is slow and uses fear with the goal of restoration.

eddif

Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
I picture the shepard reaching out and hooking the wayward lamb around the neck, keeping it from running right off a cliff.
 
I think it's helpful to know what the Law of Moses actually says and what actually happened in the OT, in discussions such as this.
How can one discuss it with someone who knows what is says if they themselves don't?
This is a simple example of what I mean......
Someone says, "Ah, just throw a saddle on that colt and buck him out." If I don't have knowledge about training a young horse how would I refute that statement? Even if I didn't like the idea, without knowledge I cannot make a viable case for why I don't agree.
Do you think it's important to train a young Christian on the details of the Mosaic Law? Should they know what foods were forbidden, or what types of cloths they could use?

I would say it is of secondary usage.
 
Do you think it's important to train a young Christian on the details of the Mosaic Law? Should they know what foods were forbidden, or what types of cloths they could use?

I would say it is of secondary usage.

I think it's not for freshman and sophomores. Until one gets a really firm footing in the covenant of grace, leave the deeper things of the law alone. Except maybe understanding a picture of the how the sacrifice for atonement was administered.
The offender laying his/her hand on the sacrificial lamb and the transferring of their sin to the lamb. The lamb being slain in the offenders place. This being a picture of the cross, the Lamb slain for us. I think it also instills the view of always looking at the law as a shadow of the good things to come.
 
I think it's not for freshman and sophomores. Until one gets a really firm footing in the covenant of grace, leave the deeper things of the law alone. Except maybe understanding a picture of the how the sacrifice for atonement was administered.
The offender laying his/her hand on the sacrificial lamb and the transferring of their sin to the lamb. The lamb being slain in the offenders place. This being a picture of the cross, the Lamb slain for us. I think it also instills the view of always looking at the law as a shadow of the good things to come.
I can agree to this, a wise view.
 
Do you think it's important to train a young Christian on the details of the Mosaic Law? Should they know what foods were forbidden, or what types of cloths they could use?

I would say it is of secondary usage.
I was told by god to read genesis first by god. I still see more of jesus in the torah and then I do at times in the new testament.but I like to dig. Deborah13 has a point. most modern churches teach a woobly top heavy new testament bible.
 
I was told by god to read genesis first by god. I still see more of jesus in the torah and then I do at times in the new testament.but I like to dig. Deborah13 has a point. most modern churches teach a woobly top heavy new testament bible.

Curious, why did you pick 'nun' if you don't mind me asking? At least that looks like 'nun' to me.
 
Curious, why did you pick 'nun' if you don't mind me asking? At least that looks like 'nun' to me.
ah, I smile when a fellow believers recognize the Hebrew letters. NUN is the Arabic letter for persecution of Christians. its marked in Arabic in bldgs. etc isis uses it. so I posted this avatar both on fb and here to show support for the rcc and orthodox facing death and dhimmitude.
 
ah, I smile when a fellow believers recognize the Hebrew letters. NUN is the Arabic letter for persecution of Christians. its marked in Arabic in bldgs. etc isis uses it. so I posted this avatar both on fb and here to show support for the rcc and orthodox facing death and dhimmitude.

Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks, Jason.
 
The biggest problem with this is the mentality that Israel is not a distinct entity and God has moved on to bigger and better things. It is not so and we NEED to see Israel as Gods chosen people. He is Just waiting on the full number of the church(anyone,Jew and gentile) to come in and then deal with His special people. The USA depends on Gods blessings for how we view Israel. And the deception is that Israel is no longer special to God and we no longer need to defend Her.

The covenant with Abraham was UNCONDITIONAL and will be fulfilled and it is everlasting.

Confined to the Jews~~
(Gen. 17:1-14)

Was everlasting~~
(1) “I will make from you a great nation” (National Posterity: Gen. 17:20; Spiritual Posterity: Gal. 3:6, 7, 29. (2) “I will bless you” (Temporal: Gen. 13:14-18; 15:18-21; 24:34-35; Spiritual: Gen. 15:6). (3) “And Make Your Name Great” (4) “And You Shall Be A Blessing” (Gal. 3:14). (5) “I Will Bless Them That Bless You” (6) “And Curse Them That Curse You” (7) “In You All the Families of the Earth Will Be Blessed” (Dt. 28:8-14; Is. 60:3-5, 11, 16). This covenant with Abraham was reaffirmed and confirmed after Abraham’s faith was tested (Gen. 22:15-18).

Israel did not fill her destiny the same as we would have not filled it. That is why we have Christ. But God is not going to toss Israel to the side the same way as most people have. And the same way most of the Church has in this day and age. It is soft and subtle, Most are sympathetic and evangelize to the Jew, but don't realize that God Sees The Jews and Israel as His distinct and special people.
I like what you say here.
Thank you.
 
ah, I smile when a fellow believers recognize the Hebrew letters. NUN is the Arabic letter for persecution of Christians. its marked in Arabic in bldgs. etc isis uses it. so I posted this avatar both on fb and here to show support for the rcc and orthodox facing death and dhimmitude.
Great teaching.
 
There is a difference between requirement and observance. One can choose to observe many aspects of the old covenant out of remembrance or affiliation without falling into the belief that those actions justify one before God. Grace allows for that. Old ritual requirements are made new, through Jesus, into optional observances.:twocents
Agreed.
 
Israel did not fill her destiny the same as we would have not filled it. That is why we have Christ. But God is not going to toss Israel to the side the same way as most people have. And the same way most of the Church has in this day and age. It is soft and subtle, Most are sympathetic and evangelize to the Jew, but don't realize that God Sees The Jews and Israel as His distinct and special people.

What was Israel destiny that you are referring to?
 
uhm being a Hebrew, when I read the bible, and how He dealt with my nation. I don't see it any different. he after the cross choise to deal with all nations, not just isreal.
 
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