Has the church replaced Israel?

[Deborah13]

Most of the replies on this thread are replacement theology from what I read. Just masked and explained away in ambiguity.

How would you describe the church, the Body of Christ?
Who are the members of that church?
Who are the oldest members of that church?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm not hearing that Bill.
It sounds like people are answering me without really be sure of themselves.
Also, I know people on this forum who believe in it that have not responded to this thread.
I was hoping they would.

Not so, I and others were very direct in our answer to where you still are asking the same question. Now, you are far to advanced in your walk with the Christ for an old fool, like myself, to be instructing you in the study of the scriptures but I am about just that right now. You have first stated that some, you know believe what I and others have explained is not true, have not answered, that admission should have been avoided because even if you have deluded yourself, that remark demonstrates a desire for bickering in the brotherhood... that is forbidden of the brethren.

Now, that lesson I dislike posting in response to you; The scriptures were recorded by 40 plus or minus prophets or secretaries of God's own using but every one of the men is inspired/dictated to by the One God making every word of the scriptures, from "In the beginning..." through the very last "Amen" of Revelation 22 of one context making the reading of any one scripture, collection of scripture or any selection of scriptures impossible to ever fully understand without the light of all other scripture shinning on it.

To the Lost Man, the man, woman or child without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the scriptures are a mystery. This is critical to remember because there are so many "pretenders" among the saved today and they discount so much of the Word of God as not being the Holy Word of God when it is. This is said because some, claiming the name of the Christ for their own present the falsehood that there are contradictions in the scriptures making alternate translations of some scriptures possible. Scripture, first and foremost is self interpreting for the indwelt/saved of God and we must give up the silly idea we, the created, can or must interpret the Creator's Word.

Israel was promised God's blessing for a thousand generations at a time when a generation was about a 40 year span but for this let's use the much shorter modern day generation of 25 years. The history of man is about 6,000 year right now when the promise, using the shorter number is 25,000 years of continuous blessing. As closely as one can figure the Israeli believer has another 19,000 to 34.000 years of never ending blessing coming their way. This either sets aside the very idea of replacement or it makes God a liar and God has no part with sin and lies are sins.

[Mods; I have withheld this until now because i am aware there is division in the Body of Christ over this issue and I pray this loosing of the firestorm dies right here because I am not at all sure this is a salvic matter but I am certain this subject must be allowed to die before it causes a rift where there has been none.]

 

[th1b.taylor]

How would you describe the church, the Body of Christ?
Who are the members of that church?
Who are the oldest members of that church?

Agreed but this looks a lot like the beginning of the possible rift I pray not to begin.

 

[eddif]

The tree was not stripped of every Jewish branch and only Gentile branches existed after the grafting. I am a gentile but everything I know of Jesus Christ comes from Jewish NT authors. I do the Law from my heart (supernatural change by the new birth). An ox is a bishop, and it gets complex in explaining how shadows become realities.

Jew and Gentile are one new man. The circumcision party still tries to exclude the Gentile, and the replacement theology folks try to exclude the Jews. The tree has both branches. Maybe there are branches around that need to be grafted back in / on. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I tend to see true Israel in the first part of Acts. Peter struggles with accepting the Gentiles, but the greater one in him wins. The greater one in an Jew and Gentile should win today. The middle wall of division is broken down by Jesus (insert your own name for the Messiah).

I realize we think differently, but there is no wall between us (it may be hard to shinny from branch to branch, but that is our job). Weak, strong, male, female, Jew, Gentile are all one ( if we are on the same tree). If we argue about being of Paul or Apollos are we not divided.

I really enjoy the site. I have several bruises but some may feel I deserve them. The New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven. The tree of life is planted on either side of the river flowing from the throne of God.

eddif

 

[th1b.taylor]

The tree was not stripped of every Jewish branch and only Gentile branches existed after the grafting. I am a gentile but everything I know of Jesus Christ comes from Jewish NT authors. I do the Law from my heart (supernatural change by the new birth). An ox is a bishop, and it gets complex in explaining how shadows become realities.

Jew and Gentile are one new man. The circumcision party still tries to exclude the Gentile, and the replacement theology folks try to exclude the Jews. The tree has both branches. Maybe there are branches around that need to be grafted back in / on. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I tend to see true Israel in the first part of Acts. Peter struggles with accepting the Gentiles, but the greater one in him wins. The greater one in an Jew and Gentile should win today. The middle wall of division is broken down by Jesus (insert your own name for the Messiah).

I realize we think differently, but there is no wall between us (it may be hard to shinny from branch to branch, but that is our job). Weak, strong, male, female, Jew, Gentile are all one ( if we are on the same tree). If we argue about being of Paul or Apollos are we not divided.

I really enjoy the site. I have several bruises but some may feel I deserve them. The New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven. The tree of life is planted on either side of the river flowing from the throne of God.

eddif

Good post Eddif. I love the Messianic Jew and have, once, celebrated the passover as administered by one of their Rabbis/Pastors. It is a beautiful observance of our Master. Since '95 I have had occasion to deal with a few traditional Jewish Believers and they hate the term Gentile and seem to be of the opinion we need the physical Circumcision and to live the Law instead of viewing it as the model for a holy life. Between these of our faith and the hard core Fundamental Jewish Believer, there exists a war that must cease to please the father and His Son.

I believe many of us carry a few bruises if we seek to truly serve because it is, I have found, impossible to be devoted without stepping on someone's toes. May God bless you and yours as He is blessing me and mine.

 

[Deborah13]

The tree was not stripped of every Jewish branch and only Gentile branches existed after the grafting. I am a gentile but everything I know of Jesus Christ comes from Jewish NT authors. I do the Law from my heart (supernatural change by the new birth). An ox is a bishop, and it gets complex in explaining how shadows become realities.

Jew and Gentile are one new man. The circumcision party still tries to exclude the Gentile, and the replacement theology folks try to exclude the Jews. The tree has both branches. Maybe there are branches around that need to be grafted back in / on. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I tend to see true Israel in the first part of Acts. Peter struggles with accepting the Gentiles, but the greater one in him wins. The greater one in an Jew and Gentile should win today. The middle wall of division is broken down by Jesus (insert your own name for the Messiah).

I realize we think differently, but there is no wall between us (it may be hard to shinny from branch to branch, but that is our job). Weak, strong, male, female, Jew, Gentile are all one ( if we are on the same tree). If we argue about being of Paul or Apollos are we not divided.

I really enjoy the site. I have several bruises but some may feel I deserve them. The New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven. The tree of life is planted on either side of the river flowing from the throne of God.

eddif

:amen

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Good post Eddif. I love the Messianic Jew and have, once, celebrated the passover as administered by one of their Rabbis/Pastors. It is a beautiful observance of our Master. Since '95 I have had occasion to deal with a few traditional Jewish Believers and they hate the term Gentile and seem to be of the opinion we need the physical Circumcision and to live the Law instead of viewing it as the model for a holy life. Between these of our faith and the hard core Fundamental Jewish Believer, there exists a war that must cease to please the father and His Son.

I believe many of us carry a few bruises if we seek to truly serve because it is, I have found, impossible to be devoted without stepping on someone's toes. May God bless you and yours as He is blessing me and mine.

To require circumcision and observance of the Dietary and Ritualistic Laws is heresy. There can be no peace over such issues as those who observe such are cut off from Christ.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 (ESV)

 

[th1b.taylor]

To require circumcision and observance of the Dietary and Ritualistic Laws is heresy. There can be no peace over such issues as those who observe such are cut off from Christ.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 (ESV)

I'm not sure why you have made this post with a quote of one of my posts because I have never believed otherwise. My post was pointing out that they are stuck in granny gear and as such, need to shift gears.+

In the old Dodge 3/4 Ton Power Trucks of WW II through Vietnam usage could move mountains in granny gear but to get to the mountain one needed to use fourth gear or the rain would melt the mountain into the seas before the 3/4 Ton ever got there. Hoping you see my point through the metaphor.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm not sure why you have made this post with a quote of one of my posts because I have never believed otherwise. My post was pointing out that they are stuck in granny gear and as such, need to shift gears.+

In the old Dodge 3/4 Ton Power Trucks of WW II through Vietnam usage could move mountains in granny gear but to get to the mountain one needed to use fourth gear or the rain would melt the mountain into the seas before the 3/4 Ton ever got there. Hoping you see my point through the metaphor.

It was in response to this statement:

Between these of our faith and the hard core Fundamental Jewish Believer, there exists a war that must cease to please the father and His Son.

I said that there cannot be peace in view of heresy. Not that I am advocating violence, but there cannot be a restoration of relations so that we worship in communion with these Fundamental Jewish Believers who attempt to thrust the Law on Christians, Jew and Gentile alike.

Such teaching is heresy that causes one to be severed from Christ, and such false teachers need to be rebuked with gentleness and sincerity, but rebuked nonetheless.

 

[eddif]

To require circumcision and observance of the Dietary and Ritualistic Laws is heresy. There can be no peace over such issues as those who observe such are cut off from Christ.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 (ESV)

The Gentile keeps all the law IMHO.
Now this is going to take some doing.

Circumcision of OT is a shadow of the NT heart circumcision. You must be born again.

Dietary laws of OT times are a shadow of our diet today. The teachers you receive the Word from: must part the hoof and chew the cud. LOL.
Today's teachers should use their hoofs to gently roll the corn to remove the seed coat. After the grain is winnowed the individual is led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. The teachers should not have a solid hoof that just mashes the word into a pulp. Neither should paws just pass over the word and do nothing but defile it.
Today's teachers should chew the cud. A quick trip through one stomach will not digest hard to understand scriptures. Scripture must be meditated on over and over, and run through several stomachs before opinions are given. Sometimes I do better than others.

Ritualistic Laws are but a shadow of Christ and his work. Colossians 2:16-17
Christ is the body that casts a shadow back in time. You should be able to see Jesus in all Laws and ordinances.

Gentiles have made traditions that violate the Word of God. Let us not walk without the knowledge that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

The Law does not justify, but the Law can be used lawfully.

This is wearing out my teeth. LOL

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

The Gentile keeps all the law IMHO.
Now this is going to take some doing.

Circumcision of OT is a shadow of the NT heart circumcision. You must be born again.

Dietary laws of OT times are a shadow of our diet today. The teachers you receive the Word from: must part the hoof and chew the cud. LOL.
Today's teachers should use their hoofs to gently roll the corn to remove the seed coat. After the grain is winnowed the individual is led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. The teachers should not have a solid hoof that just mashes the word into a pulp. Neither should paws just pass over the word and do nothing but defile it.
Today's teachers should chew the cud. A quick trip through one stomach will not digest hard to understand scriptures. Scripture must be meditated on over and over, and run through several stomachs before opinions are given. Sometimes I do better than others.

Ritualistic Laws are but a shadow of Christ and his work. Colossians 2:16-17
Christ is the body that casts a shadow back in time. You should be able to see Jesus in all Laws and ordinances.

Gentiles have made traditions that violate the Word of God. Let us not walk without the knowledge that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

The Law does not justify, but the Law can be used lawfully.

This is wearing out my teeth. LOL

eddif

Again, Excellent post.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It was in response to this statement:


I said that there cannot be peace in view of heresy. Not that I am advocating violence, but there cannot be a restoration of relations so that we worship in communion with these Fundamental Jewish Believers who attempt to thrust the Law on Christians, Jew and Gentile alike.

Such teaching is heresy that causes one to be severed from Christ, and such false teachers need to be rebuked with gentleness and sincerity, but rebuked nonetheless.

But, in all honesty, you seem to have read into my post, what is, just, not there. If we and they continue pushing to the point of strife, the chances of effective witnessing will grow dimmer and dimmer. Believe me when I tell you that the further I was into my three tours in 'Nam, the greater my hate for the VC and the NVA. To a lessor level the same is true if we continue to fight with instead of discuss with our Jewish neighbors.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The Gentile keeps all the law IMHO.
Now this is going to take some doing.

The Gentiles don't keep the Law, but they fulfill what the law intended to produce. Namely love for one's neighbor and God.

Circumcision of OT is a shadow of the NT heart circumcision. You must be born again.

Yes, and to require circumcision to be a part of the Covenant Community is heresy. I agree with your statement.

Dietary laws of OT times are a shadow of our diet today. The teachers you receive the Word from: must part the hoof and chew the cud. LOL.
Today's teachers should use their hoofs to gently roll the corn to remove the seed coat. After the grain is winnowed the individual is led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. The teachers should not have a solid hoof that just mashes the word into a pulp. Neither should paws just pass over the word and do nothing but defile it.
Today's teachers should chew the cud. A quick trip through one stomach will not digest hard to understand scriptures. Scripture must be meditated on over and over, and run through several stomachs before opinions are given. Sometimes I do better than others.

I don't really see that analogy in Scripture, but even still I find it useful. Thanks for sharing.

Ritualistic Laws are but a shadow of Christ and his work. Colossians 2:16-17
Christ is the body that casts a shadow back in time. You should be able to see Jesus in all Laws and ordinances.

Yes they are fulfilled by Jesus, and we do not serve in the old way of the letter, but the new way of the Spirit. You will agree I hope?

Gentiles have made traditions that violate the Word of God. Let us not walk without the knowledge that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Jews and Gentiles alike can be guilty of heresy. The teachings spread by the group called the "circumcision" were particularly troubling for the first Christians and thus have the strongest words spoken against them in the NT.

The Law does not justify, but the Law can be used lawfully.

How do you suppose a Christian uses the Law in light of the New Covenant?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But, in all honesty, you seem to have read into my post, what is, just, not there. If we and they continue pushing to the point of strife, the chances of effective witnessing will grow dimmer and dimmer. Believe me when I tell you that the further I was into my three tours in 'Nam, the greater my hate for the VC and the NVA. To a lessor level the same is true if we continue to fight with instead of discuss with our Jewish neighbors.

I will be the last person to speak a word against the Jewish people here, I have nothing but love for them. Jewish people who believe in the Messiah are more than welcome to be joined in fellowship as brothers in the Lord. However, where there is heresy, it must be met with stiff opposition. Not with dogmatic hatred, but in a gentle rebuke.. the truth spoken in love.

We cannot dilute the truth for the sake of peace, and we cannot stand for the truth without also having grace.

 

[Sinthesis]

There is a difference between requirement and observance. One can choose to observe many aspects of the old covenant out of remembrance or affiliation without falling into the belief that those actions justify one before God. Grace allows for that. Old ritual requirements are made new, through Jesus, into optional observances.

 

[Deborah13]

The Gentiles don't keep the Law, but they fulfill what the law intended to produce. Namely love for one's neighbor and God.


Yes, and to require circumcision to be a part of the Covenant Community is heresy. I agree with your statement.


I don't really see that analogy in Scripture, but even still I find it useful. Thanks for sharing.


Yes they are fulfilled by Jesus, and we do not serve in the old way of the letter, but the new way of the Spirit. You will agree I hope?


Jews and Gentiles alike can be guilty of heresy. The teachings spread by the group called the "circumcision" were particularly troubling for the first Christians and thus have the strongest words spoken against them in the NT.


How do you suppose a Christian uses the Law in light of the New Covenant?

For me when I look at all God's Law, even the Law of Moses, I see that God gave all Law to teach one thing, 'what love looks like.' Don't do this because it not an expression of love. Do, do this because it is an expression of love.'
Moses Law is an expression of the Messiah's love, in shadows, that we literally walk out when we walk in the Spirit of grace.
When the law says, the murder shall be put to death. That says to me that murder is not an expression of love and it is in fact so terrible there is no way to make amends for it. God must give one abundant mercy, grace, and love to the murder who repents.
I think this is using the law, lawfully.

Well said, Sinthesis, post # 55

 

[th1b.taylor]

For me when I look at all God's Law, even the Law of Moses, I see that God gave all Law to teach one thing, 'what love looks like.' Don't do this because it not an expression of love. Do, do this because it is an expression of love.'
Moses Law is an expression of the Messiah's love, in shadows, that we literally walk out when we walk in the Spirit of grace.
When the law says, the murder shall be put to death. That says to me that murder is not an expression of love and it is in fact so terrible there is no way to make amends for it. God must give one abundant mercy, grace, and love to the murder who repents.
I think this is using the law, lawfully.

Well said, Sinthesis, post # 55

Yes, I have been met with illogical resistance so many times because I often present the idea that the Mosaic is, though not binding to the Saved Man, is the perfect model or picture of God, the standard the Saved Man should strive to attain. The first and ridicules reply is almost, without failure, we are not bound by the Mosaic Law. And of course that retort is true but it has nothing to do with what I said. It's just like the law against murder, some things make sense.

 

[Drew]

I don't find it helpful to run off to Galatians 6, when we are talking about Romans 11. Where Paul is answering a specific question regarding the people of Israel.. the Jews.

Galatians 6 is indeed relevant as it establishes a precedence for Paul using the term "Israel" to denote a set of persons that is not exclusively Jewish in compositon.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1 (ESV)

For Paul to affirm that God has not rejected his people does not force us to conclude that He still has a distinctive role for them. Shortly after writing this, Paul gives us the olive tree model where he describes how God will incorporate both Jew and Gentile into a single entity - the church. Paul's position is, I suggest, there is indeed a place for Jews in the church; it is not that ethnic Israel retains special status.

Notice how Paul's reasoning isn't, "no God hasn't rejected him people, because they're totally represented in a different way now." No, rather he appeals to the fact that he is himself an Israelite ethnically.

I believe that Paul invokes his ethnicity simply to say that Jews have not been written off by God. But that's not equivalent to an affirmation that they retain special status.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

For me when I look at all God's Law, even the Law of Moses, I see that God gave all Law to teach one thing, 'what love looks like.' Don't do this because it not an expression of love. Do, do this because it is an expression of love.'

Christians do not derive their idea of love from the Law, they derive it from Jesus.

By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 1 John 3:16 (ESV)

Indeed, we had to die to the Law and be joined to another, the resurrected Jesus Christ, in order for us to bear fruit for God. (See Romans 7)

Moses Law is an expression of the Messiah's love, in shadows, that we literally walk out when we walk in the Spirit of grace.

The commandments are summed up in the single commandment to love one's neighbor, and love fulfills the Law since it does no wrong to the person. I don't see the point in looking back at the shadow as a reference point, when we have the Messiah right here to follow.

When the law says, the murder shall be put to death. That says to me that murder is not an expression of love and it is in fact so terrible there is no way to make amends for it. God must give one abundant mercy, grace, and love to the murder who repents.
I think this is using the law, lawfully.

In the Mosiac Law, there is no forgiveness for murder. In the New Covenant of grace, there is forgiveness for all sins except for the sin against the Holy Spirit. Truly it is contrary to love, and is the outward expression of a hateful heart. However, I don't see how appealing to the Law here is all that helpful when we are to walk by the Spirit and not according to the letter.

 

[eddif]

There is a difference between requirement and observance. One can choose to observe many aspects of the old covenant out of remembrance or affiliation without falling into the belief that those actions justify one before God. Grace allows for that. Old ritual requirements are made new, through Jesus, into optional observances.

When one allows payment of a good Bishop in the NT church; he is not muzzling the ox. When you pay the Bishop you do the very thing the Law says, but from the heart (new heart).
I Corinthians 9:7-10

eddif