Bible Study HELL DOES NOT EXIST

[Randy]

Jesus was referring to that valley because they burned refuse there.

He likened it to hell.

Yes, that's clear to me as well.

 

[GodsGrace]

In post 153 you said,



How many souls are on board? But he means, of course, persons. How is that not calling a soul a person? You said, when he asked how many souls, he means persons. Now, how can you say you didn't say a person is a soul?

Apparently He did because they too, "ARE" souls. Do they have a soul? They are a soul. Do they have a spirt? Yes, they too, have the breath/spirit of life.

My bad to bring up an example.
What I meant is that the controller means persons,,,,,there are NOT souls floating around on board.

You posted:
"They too have the breath/spirit of life."

Is the spirit of life the same as the spirit we receive when we become children of God?

 

[Butch5]

My bad to bring up an example.
What I meant is that the controller means persons,,,,,there are NOT souls floating around on board.

Right. Which is what I said. A soul is the whole person.

You posted:
"They too have the breath/spirit of life."

Is the spirit of life the same as the spirit we receive when we become children of God?

Yes, for a different purpose.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. Which is what I said. A soul is the whole person.

You say a soul is a whole person.

How is that possible?

Does a person have body?

Does a soul have a body or does a body have a soul?

In Genesis 2:7 did God create a soul first, or did He create a man first and then give him a soul?

It seems to me that this is the same problem I face with you when you insist the the Trinity is
1 in 3 persons
instead of
3 persons in 1 God.

You don't grasp the difference and you're doing the same with the soul.

A soul MUST have a person attached to it...it is not free-floating as I've been stating.
A person has a soul.
A soul is not a person.

Yes, for a different purpose.

 

[Butch5]

You say a soul is a whole person.

How is that possible?

Does a person have body?

Does a soul have a body or does a body have a soul?

In Genesis 2:7 did God create a soul first, or did He create a man first and then give him a soul?

It seems to me that this is the same problem I face with you when you insist the the Trinity is
1 in 3 persons
instead of
3 persons in 1 God.

You don't grasp the difference and you're doing the same with the soul.

A soul MUST have a person attached to it...it is not free-floating as I've been stating.
A person has a soul.
A soul is not a person.

God turned the man into a living soul by putting His breath/spirit into him.

You say a soul is a whole person.

How is that possible?

Does a person have body?

Does a soul have a body or does a body have a soul?

In Genesis 2:7 did God create a soul first, or did He create a man first and then give him a soul?

It seems to me that this is the same problem I face with you when you insist the the Trinity is
1 in 3 persons
instead of
3 persons in 1 God.

You don't grasp the difference and you're doing the same with the soul.

A soul MUST have a person attached to it...it is not free-floating as I've been stating.
A person has a soul.
A soul is not a person.

A soul has a body. I don't know why you are having such trouble with this. God created the man. Then God breathed into the man. The man BECAME a living soul. The man wasn't a soul, but then he became one.

 

[GodsGrace]

God turned the man into a living soul by putting His breath/spirit into him.

A soul has a body. I don't know why you are having such trouble with this. God created the man. Then God breathed into the man. The man BECAME a living soul. The man ⁸dl1wasn't a soul, but then he became one.

OK Butch,
We're going to agree to disagree.

Bit look at your reply in post 163...

You said the spirit of life God gave to Adam is the same as the spirit we receive when born again but for a different purpose.

So...

1. You are saying that when we become born again we end up with two spirits.

2. Even the unsaved have the Spirit of God in them.

Both are incorrect.

 

[Butch5]

OK Butch,
We're going to agree to disagree.

Bit look at your reply in post 163...

You said the spirit of life God gave to Adam is the same as the spirit we receive when born again but for a different purpose.

So...

1. You are saying that when we become born again we end up with two spirits.

2. Even the unsaved have the Spirit of God in them.

Both are incorrect.

What part of, ' man became a living soul' do you disagree with?

No, it's not wrong. You may not like the idea. It may not fit your theology, but it's not wrong. And, not there aren't two spirits.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.(Job 34:14-15 KJV)

God's breath/spirit is in all flesh.

 

[Doug Brents]

What part of, ' man became a living soul' do you disagree with?

No, it's not wrong. You may not like the idea. It may not fit your theology, but it's not wrong. And, not there aren't two spirits.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.(Job 34:14-15 KJV)

God's breath/spirit is in all flesh.

The fact that "man became a living soul" means that man's soul is separate from God's Spirit. Man has a soul that is born from God's Spirit, but as a child is separate from, but born of, his parents, so man's spirit is born of, but is separate from, God's.

This soul in in all men, but the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) which enters man as a consequence of being saved is not the same as man's soul (what you are calling the "breath of God"). The Spirit of God comes to dwell with our soul, to give guidance to our soul, and to lead our soul toward Heaven. This Spirit is only given to those who are "in Christ". It is not the same spirit that is in all men, and it is not the same spirit that is in the World.

Yes, all FLESH shall perish, but the soul will be immortal as we see in 1 Cor 15:50-54. Read that passage. Read it closely. It exposes the error in what you are saying.

 

[Butch5]

The fact that "man became a living soul" means that man's soul is separate from God's Spirit. Man has a soul that is born from God's Spirit, but as a child is separate from, but born of, his parents, so man's spirit is born of, but is separate from, God's.

This soul in in all men, but the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) which enters man as a consequence of being saved is not the same as man's soul (what you are calling the "breath of God"). The Spirit of God comes to dwell with our soul, to give guidance to our soul, and to lead our soul toward Heaven. This Spirit is only given to those who are "in Christ". It is not the same spirit that is in all men, and it is not the same spirit that is in the World.

Yes, all FLESH shall perish, but the soul will be immortal as we see in 1 Cor 15:50-54. Read that passage. Read it closely. It exposes the error in what you are saying.

It's obvious you haven't followed the argument because I've not claimed things you said. It seems you also don't believe the Scriptures because Paul said the Father alone has immortality. And, you agreed that man is a soul and then said he has a soul. So which is it? Does he have one or is he one?

What you've said here doesn't follow. Have you sat down and thought these things through

 

[Doug Brents]

It's obvious you haven't followed the argument because I've not claimed things you said. It seems you also don't believe the Scriptures because Paul said the Father alone has immortality. And, you agreed that man is a soul and then said he has a soul. So which is it? Does he have one or is he one?

What you've said here doesn't follow. Have you sat down and thought these things through

Your stance that the Father alone has immortality is based on an improper interpretation of that passage.
First, the Son is equal to the Father, and is listed in that verse as having immortality also.
Second, when we are resurrected, we will be given immortality. It may be so that the soul is not immortal at this time, but it will be given immortality when it is resurrected. Both the evil dead and the righteous dead will be resurrected to immortal bodies. They will then stand at Judgement before the White Throne of God. The righteous will then be sent to Paradise, and the evil will be sent to the Lake of Fire. Both of these will be eternal in nature, neither will ever end.

 

[Butch5]

Your stance that the Father alone has immortality is based on an improper interpretation of that passage.
First, the Son is equal to the Father, and is listed in that verse as having immortality also.
Second, when we are resurrected, we will be given immortality. It may be so that the soul is not immortal at this time, but it will be given immortality when it is resurrected. Both the evil dead and the righteous dead will be resurrected to immortal bodies. They will then stand at Judgement before the White Throne of God. The righteous will then be sent to Paradise, and the evil will be sent to the Lake of Fire. Both of these will be eternal in nature, neither will ever end.

You might want to read that passage again.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Paul said that the Lord Jesus will show how is the only potentate, who only has immortality, whom no man has seen, nor can see. The only potentate that cannot be seen is the Father. No one has seen Him, nor can see Him This is not talking about Christ, it's talking about the Father. He alone has immortality.

Rather than imposing your theology onto the Scriptures, why not let the Scriptures inform your beliefs?

No, man will not be raised with immortal bodies. They will be the same bodies we have now. These bodies are not immortal. After people are resurrected they will receive life or death. Those who receive life have a promise that the life God gives them will never end. That's why Jesus said He would give to eat of the Tree of life, those who overcome. Those who do not receive life will die a second time, the second death.

 

[Randy]

You might want to read that passage again.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Paul said that the Lord Jesus will show how is the only potentate, who only has immortality, whom no man has seen, nor can see. The only potentate that cannot be seen is the Father. No one has seen Him, nor can see Him This is not talking about Christ, it's talking about the Father. He alone has immortality.

Rather than imposing your theology onto the Scriptures, why not let the Scriptures inform your beliefs?

No, man will not be raised with immortal bodies. They will be the same bodies we have now. These bodies are not immortal. After people are resurrected they will receive life or death. Those who receive life have a promise that the life God gives them will never end. That's why Jesus said He would give to eat of the Tree of life, those who overcome. Those who do not receive life will die a second time, the second death.

God has given immortality to His Son. There are scriptures that state Jesus has no end. Just as Jesus states those who believe in Him will never die.
In regard to the breath of life God "forms" the spirit with in mankind. We have our own spirit.
What nourishes spirit? What is the life span of spirit? Does spirit grow old and die? Does the body give life to the spirit?
You are thinking in terms of biology not spirit.

A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person,

That is why if God withdrew His Spirit man would perish. As we are spirit in the tent of the body. If God's Spirit isn't present to form the spirit within the human body then you have no life. Flesh only gives birth to flesh not spirit.

God is our heavenly Father. He is the Father of all spirits.
The very first work He performed was to form Jesus's spirit. Then He was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity to dwell/live in His firstborn. All other things were made through Jesus and for Jesus. Jesus is before all things except the Father. Jesus has no end of days.

 

[Doug Brents]

You might want to read that passage again.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Paul said that the Lord Jesus will show how is the only potentate, who only has immortality, whom no man has seen, nor can see. The only potentate that cannot be seen is the Father. No one has seen Him, nor can see Him This is not talking about Christ, it's talking about the Father. He alone has immortality.

Rather than imposing your theology onto the Scriptures, why not let the Scriptures inform your beliefs?

No, man will not be raised with immortal bodies. They will be the same bodies we have now. These bodies are not immortal. After people are resurrected they will receive life or death. Those who receive life have a promise that the life God gives them will never end. That's why Jesus said He would give to eat of the Tree of life, those who overcome. Those who do not receive life will die a second time, the second death.

And the second death will consist of pain, and agony, and loss, and weeping for all eternity. The damned won't cease to exist. They will go on in unending torment (Matt 25:41 & 46, 2 Thes 1:9, Rev 20:10, Rev 21:8, Rev 14:11, Mark 9:48). All these passages tell us that the Lake of Fire will be unending, and that not only Satan and his angels will be sent there, but all whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be sent there as well. And they will exist for all eternity in that torment.

 

[Butch5]

God has given immortality to His Son. There are scriptures that state Jesus has no end. Just as Jesus states those who believe in Him will never die.
In regard to the breath of life God "forms" the spirit with in mankind. We have our own spirit.
What nourishes spirit? What is the life span of spirit? Does spirit grow old and die? Does the body give life to the spirit?
You are thinking in terms of biology not spirit.

A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person,

That is why if God withdrew His Spirit man would perish. As we are spirit in the tent of the body. If God's Spirit isn't present to form the spirit within the human body then you have no life. Flesh only gives birth to flesh not spirit.

God is our heavenly Father. He is the Father of all spirits.
The very first work He performed was to form Jesus's spirit. Then He was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity to dwell/live in His firstborn. All other things were made through Jesus and for Jesus. Jesus is before all things except the Father. Jesus has no end of days.

The word human isn't even in the Greek or Hebrew text. It's simply the translators opinion. You see, this is where translator bias becomes a real problem. The translator believes man is a spirit and as such he injects this belief into his translation. People read this, assume it's correct, and now they misunderstand the Bible. Can you see how easily millions of people can believe things that are wrong?

So, once again we see that there is one spirit in man and that is the breath of life. There is no "human spirit".

Man is flesh.

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:1 KJV)

For dust you are. Not, for a spirit you are.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

God saying man is flesh. Not, for he is spirit.

Jesus will never die, true. That's because the Father gives Him life.

 

[Butch5]

And the second death will consist of pain, and agony, and loss, and weeping for all eternity. The damned won't cease to exist. They will go on in unending torment (Matt 25:41 & 46, 2 Thes 1:9, Rev 20:10, Rev 21:8, Rev 14:11, Mark 9:48). All these passages tell us that the Lake of Fire will be unending, and that not only Satan and his angels will be sent there, but all whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be sent there as well. And they will exist for all eternity in that torment.

No, the problem is that aion is wrongly translated. It doesn't mean forever. Also, the Bible tells us in Jeremiah that, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, will one day be made holy to the Lord. Call me crazy, but I don't think being made holy is defined as eternal conscious torment.

 

[Butch5]

I'm always amazed at how far people will go to prove the Bible wrong. I expect this from Atheists, but, not Christians.

 

[GodsGrace]

God has given immortality to His Son. There are scriptures that state Jesus has no end. Just as Jesus states those who believe in Him will never die.
In regard to the breath of life God "forms" the spirit with in mankind. We have our own spirit.
What nourishes spirit? What is the life span of spirit? Does spirit grow old and die? Does the body give life to the spirit?
You are thinking in terms of biology not spirit.

A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person,

That is why if God withdrew His Spirit man would perish. As we are spirit in the tent of the body. If God's Spirit isn't present to form the spirit within the human body then you have no life. Flesh only gives birth to flesh not spirit.

God is our heavenly Father. He is the Father of all spirits.
The very first work He performed was to form Jesus's spirit. Then He was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity to dwell/live in His firstborn. All other things were made through Jesus and for Jesus. Jesus is before all things except the Father. Jesus has no end of days.

Great post.

We do know that God upholds everything in the universe.....including our life,,,He causes us to be alive and causes all the universe to exist.

Also, man is not immortal because he must die once.

But is our soul immortal or does it also die when we do? I believe it is immortal as is the Spirit in us , the Holy Spirit, if we are born again.

As Jesus stated, we must be born again.
Once in the flesh, and then again in the spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

The word human isn't even in the Greek or Hebrew text. It's simply the translators opinion. You see, this is where translator bias becomes a real problem. The translator believes man is a spirit and as such he injects this belief into his translation. People read this, assume it's correct, and now they misunderstand the Bible. Can you see how easily millions of people can believe things that are wrong?

So, once again we see that there is one spirit in man and that is the breath of life. There is no "human spirit".

Man is flesh.

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:1 KJV)

For dust you are. Not, for a spirit you are.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

God saying man is flesh. Not, for he is spirit.

Jesus will never die, true. That's because the Father gives Him life.

But you're the one claiming man is spirit.
You repeat that God breathed His spirit into Adam.

WE are the ones saying that man is flesh,,,,a body.

You say man is a soul.
Man HAS a soul.

God breathed life into the man Adam.

 

[Butch5]

But you're the one claiming man is spirit.
You repeat that God breathed His spirit into Adam.

WE are the ones saying that man is flesh,,,,a body.

You say man is a soul.
Man HAS a soul.

God breathed life into the man Adam.

How is it that we can have a conversation this long and you don't know what I've said? This whole time I've been saying man is NOT a spirit and that he IS flesh.

 

[GodsGrace]

How is it that we can have a conversation this long and you don't know what I've said? This whole time I've been saying man is NOT a spirit and that he IS

What did God breath into Adam?