Bible Study HELL DOES NOT EXIST

[GodsGrace]

That's the same as Muslims.
"Allah the merciful".....

There is only One God.
But I believe the Islamic faith does not understand Him well.
Also, I wonder if Muslims worship God or if they worship Mohammad.

However, yes, God IS merciful.
I depend on His mercy.

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean you are not aware of the verse where Jesus talked about torment, place where the worm does not die, of being thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and wailing and bashing of teeth?


This is one of those ' endless genealogies ' we are told to avoid.

The rejecting of hell or what ever alternative you prefer is always accompanied by a promotion of annihilation in the mistaken belief this is more merciful.

Talk to atheists, they do not fear annihilation, but an eternity of torment they do not like that idea.

I don't believe fear is a good way to worship God...
although a healthy sprinkling of Godly fear as respect is certainly good.

Athesists don't fear anything because they don't even believe God exists.

 

[Edward]

If you do a study through the Bible of the word soul, you'll find it's use two ways. It's used in a concrete form of a living being. In Genesis animals are called souls also. It's also used abstractly of life. It's often translated life rather than soul. The soul represents the whole person or the life. So, when Jesus says man can kill the body but not the soul, it refers to the resurrection. A man can kill a person, however, that person's life is in God's hand. That person is dead, however, they will be raised again, so their life hasn't really ended. It's essentially on pause. God will resurrect that man again. So, a man may kill the body, but that life hasn't been destroyed because God will raise it again.

I view the resurrection just as it's depicted in Scripture. God will bring that dust body back into being, breath His breath of life into it again and it will rise up again. We have an example of this given in Ezekiel where God speaks through Ezekiel of Israel's resurrection.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1-14 KJV)

All of the bolded words above are the same Hebrew word, ruach. Translators have used three different English words to translate it. Why didn't they just translate it breath in each case? If they did it would be easy to understand. We see that it was breath that brought these to life. That corresponds to what we say in Gen 2:7. God breathing into the body and it came to life. But then when we get to verse 14 they change it to spirit. This gives many a different idea. Now people are thinking of a disembodied being. If they would just leave it translated as breath it follows right along with Gen 2:7 God, shall put His breath in them and they shall live.

This is how I see the resurrection. Man will be formed again from the dust, have God's breath put back in him, and he will live again.

I got no dog in this fight, but you seem to me to have an incorrect view of man and his makeup of 3 parts and the consciousness can indeed live on after the flesh dies.

Believe me? No? Ok, no sweat Brother. But you do know that any doctrine or view must agree with ALL scripture, right? Right. Ok, now, Please tell me how your view agrees with this passage of scripture, or explain where I am wrong. Fair enough?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

So I can't see how this reconciles with your view...
I mean, why would Paul need to pray that God's (breath) returns blameless to Him when He is Holy, Almighty and no one could stop it anyway?!

 

[Butch5]

I had two different threads at different times asking why we don't all understand the bible the same way..especially the N.T.
Still haven't figured it out.
When I have a real question about something, I do try to find out what the ECFs believed about the subject. If they didn't know, who did?
Do you know how many times I've heard that they were not inspired and so were not important? It's pretty funny considering that it was they that put together the N.T.

Again...I do not believe in a "1 in 3 God concept".
I believe in 1 God that consists of 3 persons.
Somehow, in a way difficult to comprehend, the 2 Persons are made separate - maybe so that we could understand better. God Himself is not a person,,,He is a being and a powerful one at that.

Jesus was right...there is only ONE TRUE GOD.
Of which the 2nd Person is part.
Of which the Holy Spirit is part.
But we can think of them as separate....
Their nature is the same...
Their attributes are different...
Their function is different...

I don't read anything in the ECFs that runs counter to this understanding.
The WORD for LOGOS of God became the EXTERNAL SON when Jesus was born.
The external Son always existed...because the Word/Logos always existed.

God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life.
Ignatius of Antioch 105

I pray for your happiness forever in our God Jesus Christ.
Ignatius of Antioch 105AD

Next to God we worship and love the Word, who is from the unbegotten
and ineffable God.
Justin Martyr 160AD

There is One God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son.
We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him.
Arthenagoras 175AD

(so much more)

Honestly, I still don't quite understand what you believe....
This is not an easy subject to discuss...

Hi Wondering,

I believe the reason we don't all understand the NT the same way is because we come with different beliefs. Let's take two people. One believes like me that man is a physical living being. The other, like the typical Christian, believes that man is a soul/spirit that lives in a flesh body. Now, imagine these two read that someone died. The guy like me understands that the man's life ended and he no longer exists. The other guy, he can't accept this idea. His prior belief that man is a soul/spirit that lives apart from the body doesn't allow for death. So, he has to either claim death is figurative or he has to, as most do, claim that it is the body that died but the man lives on.

Can you see how just this one issue can vastly change how we understand the NT. Now add a bunch of other beliefs and it gets out of control real quickly. Another reason is that many simply won't challenge their beliefs. Doctrines tend to be built one upon another, so if one doctrine is wrong there's the possibility that subsequent doctrines will be wrong.

If we all started with the same presuppositions there'd be a lot more agreement among Christians.

Regarding the ECF's, yes a lot of people will reject them because the ECF's prove their doctrines are wrong.

Regarding the Trinity, I don't think the Bible is hard to understand at all. I think it's this 1 in 3 or 3 in1 idea that causes people problems. It's because that's the starting point. If we start from that position we're starting off on the wrong track. It's like trying to reach a destination by heading off in the wrong direction.

The Bible speaks of the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In that sense we see three or a trinity. However, I don't believe they are one in number. This is where people usually run into trouble. They try to say there one God, in number, yet they say the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are all God. This is the problem. We see three beings called God and yet somehow they are one in number. That doesn't work.

How I understand it is rather simple. The word God is a title, it means Deity. Think of it like roualty. The Father is Deity and the Son is Deity. We have two different beings, the Father and the Son. The Scripture and the Nicene Creed tell us that the Son came out of the Father. So, the Father had no beginning, but the Son did. The Holy Spirit is not a third person, but rather a manifestation of the Father. So, in persons there is not a trinity, there are two, the Father and the Son, with the Spirit being a manifestation of the Father. Now, what about when Scripture says there is one God or Deity? How can the Father be God and the Son be God and there be only one God? Simple, authority. When the Scripture say there is one God, it's about authority. The Father is the ultimate authority. The Scriptures tell us that even when the Father gave all authority to Christ, it didn't include the Father. The Father is always the ultimate authority. So, to Christians there is one God as far as authority is concerned. We also know that the Father and Son are in unity. We know that the Son does the will of the Father. So, the Son's authority is essentially the Father's authority. Consider Paul's words.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.(1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)

Paul says there is only one God. In comparison the pagans had many gods. So, the pagans had gods for all kinds of things. The had one god for fertility, another god for war, another god over nature, and so on. Each of these gods supposedly ruled over different things in the peoples lives. That's basically what the pagans think. but Paul contrasts that with what Christians believe, that there is only one God and that's the Father. There's only one God that rules over the Christians. They have one God that rules all aspects and that's the Father.

That's what I believe. I think it's pretty simple and easy to understand

 

[Butch5]

I got no dog in this fight, but you seem to me to have an incorrect view of man and his makeup of 3 parts and the consciousness can indeed live on after the flesh dies.

Believe me? No? Ok, no sweat Brother. But you do know that any doctrine or view must agree with ALL scripture, right? Right. Ok, now, Please tell me how your view agrees with this passage of scripture, or explain where I am wrong. Fair enough?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

So I can't see how this reconciles with your view...
I mean, why would Paul need to pray that God's (breath) returns blameless to Him when He is Holy, Almighty and no one could stop it anyway?!

Hi Edward,

If you read post 105 you'll see how I came to my understanding of what a man is. In your post here you say man is 3 parts. Can you establish that from Scripture? I have established that the whole being is a soul and that soul consists of two parts, the body and the breath of God. Notice that Paul prays that their "Whole" be preserved. The breath or spirit is that which animates the man. It's that breath or spirit that gives him the ability to reason. Thus that ability also lets him sin. If a man didn't have the breath or spirit he could not sin. He could not reason. He would be dead. The body, soul, and spirit, are the "Whole". So Paul is praying that their whole being is preserved blameless.

Every living being has God's breath of life in them. That includes all who sin and all who reject him and are lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not that it is really applicable to this thread, but yes.
Acts 5:32 - "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Heb 5:9 - "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,"

In both of these what is the condition and what is the reward?
Obedience to God is the condition.
Receiving salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are the reward.

If you are not obedient to Him, you don't receive the rewards.

We are saved not only from hell...a place where God is not....
but we are also saved from much, right here and right now.

If we follow God's commandments, we will surely have a better life in many ways.
We'll have a good conscience, no problems as criminals have, a better family life by honoring
our parents and relatives, putting the love of objects in their objective place by loving God first,
problems dealing with adultery, less stress by striving to have what our neighbors have in material good,
also better health due to the above lifestyle.

I like what Pope Benedict stated:

Complete and radical healing is “salvation.” By making a distinction between “health” and “salvation”, even ordinary language helps us to understand that salvation is far more than health: indeed, it is new, full and definitive life. Furthermore, Jesus here, as in other circumstances, says the words: “Your faith has made you whole.” It is faith that saves human beings, re-establishing them in their profound relationship with God, themselves and others; and faith is expressed in gratitude. (Benedict XVI 2007)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We are saved not only from hell...a place where God is not....
but we are also saved from much, right here and right now.

If we follow God's commandments, we will surely have a better life in many ways.
We'll have a good conscience, no problems as criminals have, a better family life by honoring
our parents and relatives, putting the love of objects in their objective place by loving God first,
problems dealing with adultery, less stress by striving to have what our neighbors have in material good,
also better health due to the above lifestyle.

I like what Pope Benedict stated:

Pope Benedict.
Quoting Pope Benedict.
It's nice having a forum full of romanist catholics.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pope Benedict.
Quoting Pope Benedict.
It's nice having a forum full of romanist catholics.

What's wrong with being a Catholic?
We all got one doctrine or more wrong.
If a pope makes a good statement..
No problem. He wrote good books on the life of Jesus. He was a top theologian.

I think we only have 2 Catholics here and one hasn't been around in a long time. Hope he comes back.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

I believe the reason we don't all understand the NT the same way is because we come with different beliefs. Let's take two people. One believes like me that man is a physical living being. The other, like the typical Christian, believes that man is a soul/spirit that lives in a flesh body. Now, imagine these two read that someone died. The guy like me understands that the man's life ended and he no longer exists. The other guy, he can't accept this idea. His prior belief that man is a soul/spirit that lives apart from the body doesn't allow for death. So, he has to either claim death is figurative or he has to, as most do, claim that it is the body that died but the man lives on.

Can you see how just this one issue can vastly change how we understand the NT. Now add a bunch of other beliefs and it gets out of control real quickly. Another reason is that many simply won't challenge their beliefs. Doctrines tend to be built one upon another, so if one doctrine is wrong there's the possibility that subsequent doctrines will be wrong.

If we all started with the same presuppositions there'd be a lot more agreement among Christians.

Regarding the ECF's, yes a lot of people will reject them because the ECF's prove their doctrines are wrong.

Regarding the Trinity, I don't think the Bible is hard to understand at all. I think it's this 1 in 3 or 3 in1 idea that causes people problems. It's because that's the starting point. If we start from that position we're starting off on the wrong track. It's like trying to reach a destination by heading off in the wrong direction.

The Bible speaks of the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In that sense we see three or a trinity. However, I don't believe they are one in number. This is where people usually run into trouble. They try to say there one God, in number, yet they say the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are all God. This is the problem. We see three beings called God and yet somehow they are one in number. That doesn't work.

How I understand it is rather simple. The word God is a title, it means Deity. Think of it like roualty. The Father is Deity and the Son is Deity. We have two different beings, the Father and the Son. The Scripture and the Nicene Creed tell us that the Son came out of the Father. So, the Father had no beginning, but the Son did. The Holy Spirit is not a third person, but rather a manifestation of the Father. So, in persons there is not a trinity, there are two, the Father and the Son, with the Spirit being a manifestation of the Father. Now, what about when Scripture says there is one God or Deity? How can the Father be God and the Son be God and there be only one God? Simple, authority. When the Scripture say there is one God, it's about authority. The Father is the ultimate authority. The Scriptures tell us that even when the Father gave all authority to Christ, it didn't include the Father. The Father is always the ultimate authority. So, to Christians there is one God as far as authority is concerned. We also know that the Father and Son are in unity. We know that the Son does the will of the Father. So, the Son's authority is essentially the Father's authority. Consider Paul's words.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.(1 Cor. 8:4-6 KJV)

Paul says there is only one God. In comparison the pagans had many gods. So, the pagans had gods for all kinds of things. The had one god for fertility, another god for war, another god over nature, and so on. Each of these gods supposedly ruled over different things in the peoples lives. That's basically what the pagans think. but Paul contrasts that with what Christians believe, that there is only one God and that's the Father. There's only one God that rules over the Christians. They have one God that rules all aspects and that's the Father.

That's what I believe. I think it's pretty simple and easy to understand

Tomorrow.
'night.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

If you read post 105 you'll see how I came to my understanding of what a man is. In your post here you say man is 3 parts. Can you establish that from Scripture? I have established that the whole being is a soul and that soul consists of two parts, the body and the breath of God. Notice that Paul prays that their "Whole" be preserved. The breath or spirit is that which animates the man. It's that breath or spirit that gives him the ability to reason. Thus that ability also lets him sin. If a man didn't have the breath or spirit he could not sin. He could not reason. He would be dead. The body, soul, and spirit, are the "Whole". So Paul is praying that their whole being is preserved blameless.

Every living being has God's breath of life in them. That includes all who sin and all who reject him and are lost.

It is true that the spirit is life and that breath of life of God's resides in our blood. Our blood takes oxygen to every cell of our body. Scripture even says...the life is in the blood. Nevertheless, we do very much so have our own spirit. I thought the 1 Thessalonians scripture I posted sounds very clear. But there are more scriptures even. How about this one?

Ezekial 36: 26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.../

It is not taking about God's breath of Life here for sure. (A new breath I will put inside of you?) No, that don't make sense.

Or how about the scripture which says that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit? The Holy Spirit does not bear witness to God's breath. I believe that before Adam & Eve fell, that their spirits were on the outside of their flesh bodies, and they shined and glowed. (and the flesh body was not visible inside of their glowing spirits So they didn't know that they were naked.

Then they fell. They died spiritually that day and their spirits were pushed inside of them, revealing their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves. (But that's not scripture, that is my speculation. It had to be. God can not lie, right? He told them in the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge you will surely die. But Adam lived for 900+ years (in the flesh body).

So did God lie? No! He died spiritually. And when we get born again and receive salvation...He gives us a new spirit. Alive and forgiven and blameless. And since the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit...our spirit will always know the right thing to do in any given situation. Our spirit is us. Our spirit talks with the Holy Spirit, but we don't get to listen in! Our spirit can talk to our Carnal mind & soul though through our conscience! So will we listen to our spirit, or will we listen to our fleshy carnal mind? We are instructed to be led of the spirit and not the flesh. .
I saw an excellent animated video which was put out by Andrew Wommack which explains Spirit/Soul/Body constituency and how each functions and so forth. It is very good. I'll see if I can find it for you and post it.

 

[Edward]

Found it. Enjoy. Have a pen & paper ready to copy the scriptures he gives.

 

[GodsGrace]

Found it. Enjoy. Have a pen & paper ready to copy the scriptures he gives.

Hi Ed,
I think you know that I studied this many years ago and, as Womack stated, it helped me to understand my nature as a person, sin, etc.

Can't remember if he explained that our spirit has an effect on our soul and even on our body.

Great explanation!

 

[Randy]

If you do a study through the Bible of the word soul, you'll find it's use two ways. It's used in a concrete form of a living being. In Genesis animals are called souls also. It's also used abstractly of life. It's often translated life rather than soul. The soul represents the whole person or the life. So, when Jesus says man can kill the body but not the soul, it refers to the resurrection. A man can kill a person, however, that person's life is in God's hand. That person is dead, however, they will be raised again, so their life hasn't really ended. It's essentially on pause. God will resurrect that man again. So, a man may kill the body, but that life hasn't been destroyed because God will raise it again.

I view the resurrection just as it's depicted in Scripture. God will bring that dust body back into being, breath His breath of life into it again and it will rise up again. We have an example of this given in Ezekiel where God speaks through Ezekiel of Israel's resurrection.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1-14 KJV)

All of the bolded words above are the same Hebrew word, ruach. Translators have used three different English words to translate it. Why didn't they just translate it breath in each case? If they did it would be easy to understand. We see that it was breath that brought these to life. That corresponds to what we say in Gen 2:7. God breathing into the body and it came to life. But then when we get to verse 14 they change it to spirit. This gives many a different idea. Now people are thinking of a disembodied being. If they would just leave it translated as breath it follows right along with Gen 2:7 God, shall put His breath in them and they shall live.

This is how I see the resurrection. Man will be formed again from the dust, have God's breath put back in him, and he will live again.

Jesus=>kill body and soul in hell
You=>no resurrection

There is a resurrection of the wicked to be condemned.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What's wrong with being a Catholic?
We all got one doctrine or more wrong.
If a pope makes a good statement..
No problem. He wrote good books on the life of Jesus. He was a top theologian.

I think we only have 2 Catholics here and one hasn't been around in a long time. Hope he comes back.

I'm the top authority on catholicism on this forum.
I am not prejudice either way.
I know my catechism.

 

[Who Me]

I don't believe fear is a good way to worship God...
although a healthy sprinkling of Godly fear as respect is certainly good.

Athesists don't fear anything because they don't even believe God exists.

I have not said anywhere that we are to be terrified of God.

I said that Jesus taught about hell being a place of torment and that atheist liked the idea of annilation as it removed the concept of punishment.

 

[Butch5]

It is true that the spirit is life and that breath of life of God's resides in our blood. Our blood takes oxygen to every cell of our body. Scripture even says...the life is in the blood. Nevertheless, we do very much so have our own spirit. I thought the 1 Thessalonians scripture I posted sounds very clear. But there are more scriptures even. How about this one?

Ezekial 36: 26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.../

It is not taking about God's breath of Life here for sure. (A new breath I will put inside of you?) No, that don't make sense.

Or how about the scripture which says that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit? The Holy Spirit does not bear witness to God's breath. I believe that before Adam & Eve fell, that their spirits were on the outside of their flesh bodies, and they shined and glowed. (and the flesh body was not visible inside of their glowing spirits So they didn't know that they were naked.

Then they fell. They died spiritually that day and their spirits were pushed inside of them, revealing their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves. (But that's not scripture, that is my speculation. It had to be. God can not lie, right? He told them in the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge you will surely die. But Adam lived for 900+ years (in the flesh body).

So did God lie? No! He died spiritually. And when we get born again and receive salvation...He gives us a new spirit. Alive and forgiven and blameless. And since the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit...our spirit will always know the right thing to do in any given situation. Our spirit is us. Our spirit talks with the Holy Spirit, but we don't get to listen in! Our spirit can talk to our Carnal mind & soul though through our conscience! So will we listen to our spirit, or will we listen to our fleshy carnal mind? We are instructed to be led of the spirit and not the flesh. .
I saw an excellent animated video which was put out by Andrew Wommack which explains Spirit/Soul/Body constituency and how each functions and so forth. It is very good. I'll see if I can find it for you and post it.

Hi Edward,

There are quite a few things here. Since you agree with what I said about the Breath of Life, what exactly is this other "spirit" that you speak of? You said our spirit is us, can you prove that from Scripture? I doesn't fit with what Paul said. Paul wrote, your body, soul, and spirit. The word "your" denotes either ownership or possession. It doesn't denote person. The word "you" denotes person. If I wanted to speak to someone, I would say, "I want to speak to you". I wouldn't say, I want to speak to your". Your is not the person, you is. Likewise, if I wanted to speak of something you had, I would say, "I saw your car outside". I wouldn't say, "I saw you car outside". So, "your" denotes something that is either owned or possessed by "you". So, if Paul says "your" spirit, it can't be "you". It has to be something "you" own or are in possession of. So, Paul's language doesn't allow for your interpretation of the spirit as being you.

I would also be interested in where you believe this "spirit" comes from. It seems you believe that the spirit is the man. If that is the case then we should find Scripture telling us that. Where in Scripture do we see God putting a man spirit in man?

Also, let's keep in mind that the Greek and Hebrew words mean wind or breath. The don't have a meaning of a disembodied being. That's an English definition of spirit but it's not a definition of the Greek and Hebrew words. When we see it in Scripture it's because the translators are using a figure of speech. What happens is, in the Bible, angels and demons are sometimes referred to as winds or breaths. This is figurative. Jesus gave an example of this in John 3.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

Jesus said that the wind (pneuma) blows where it will. You hear it but you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. We can't see it, but, we can see it's effects. Angels and demons are the same way. They come and go without our knowledge. We can't see them, but, we can see their effects when they interact with the physical world. So, they are metaphorically called winds. The problem is, translators see this and translate it spirit because a disembodied being is being called wind. English readers see the word Spirit, don't know it's figurative, and they import the English concept of spirit (a disembodied living being} into the text which in the case of angels and demons is fine. However, there are places where they mistranslate it as spirit based on what they believe. This is where the reader gets into trouble, because it causes the reader to import the English idea of spirit where wind or breath are actually the correct translation. It's not hard to see how one could get off track if the Bible is talking about wind and the reader is importing the idea of a disembodied being. This is one of the reasons so many believe things that can't be backed up by Scripture and things that are contradicted by Scripture. If translators would simply translate it wind everywhere it appears and let the reader decide if it's literal or a figure of speech it would be much better. Because, when they translate it spirit, the seal their interpretation into the text and now the reader doesn't know it's a figure of speech unless they can go to the original text.

So, Given that the Greek and Hebrew words mean wind or breath, and you believe that man is a spirit, what exactly is man?

Regarding Ezekiel 36:26, I think that's pretty clear.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezek. 36:26 KJV)

First, let's see what the breath or spirit of life does. We know that it is that which gives life. It also gives understanding and the ability to reason. Anything we do is governed by the breath of life.

The word spirit in English has a primary meaning of a disembodied being. However, it is also an alcoholic drink, and it has a meaning of support. For instance, when one is said to have team spirit. Or, when Paal wrote the the Corinthians that he was with them in spirit. He was far from them physically. I don't think he meant I'm here far away from you but my ghost is with you.

In this passage God is talking about cleansing and renewing them. I think we can agree that this is figurative. I don't think anyone thinks they had a literal stone in their chest pumping blood. I think it's figurative for being hard hearted, non caring etc. So, God's going to change them. How does one change someone? You change the way they think. If you change people's minds, you change their behaviors, and you change them. Well, if the breath of life is what gives man the ability to reason and think, then changing the breath of life would change the person. Again, this is figurative. I don't think God is saying I'm going to take the breath of life out of you and give you another breath of life. I think its simply a figurative way that God is saying I'm going to change the way you think, I'm going to change your mind.

The spiritual death concept is not in Scripture. And, when God told Adam he would die in the day he ate of the tree, it was a physical death.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:17-19 KJV)

The punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge was that Adam would return to the dust.

Notice also that God said to Adam, "you are dust". Let's go back to "you" and "your". Notice God addressed the prerson of Adam, addressing him as "you" and not "your". God told him that he was dust. He didn't say you are a spirit. He said you are dust.

Did Adam die the day he ate from the tree? Yes. It was a prophetic day of 1000 years. David said,

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 KJV)

Peter alluded to this when he was questioned about the delay in the Lords return.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 KJV)

Adam live 930 years, just short of the prophetic day. This is the historic understanding of this passage.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus=>kill body and soul in hell
You=>no resurrection

There is a resurrection of the wicked to be condemned.

I never said there wasn't a resurrection of the wicked.

 

[Randy]

I never said there wasn't a resurrection of the wicked.

Nevertheless what you state isn't what Jesus stated.

And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I think you are in denial. Souls in heaven vs Souls in Hell.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Die once then face judgment. The Spirit of a person does return for that judgment. They are not reabsorbed or whatever you believe happens. They still exist. Spirit gives birth to Spirit.

You are free to believe what you believe and I don't expect to see a change so we will have to agree to disagree.

And those born of God are a new creation. Gods Spirit dwells with them forever. They can not die. Only our bodies. Death in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have not said anywhere that we are to be terrified of God.

I said that Jesus taught about hell being a place of torment and that atheist liked the idea of annilation as it removed the concept of punishment.

I was replying to this statement of yours:

Talk to atheists, they do not fear annihilation, but an eternity of torment they do not like that idea.

My point was that atheists don't dislike any idea or fear anything after life since they don't believe in an afterlife.
IOW,,,I don't think atheists give annihalation a second thought since they don't believe in life after death.

 

[Adradtos275]

Not only does it not exists, a Catholic Priest in my town apologized to the congregation during a Mass, about 3 years ago, telling them that the church had mislead them and that hell does not exist because the word HELL is not in the bible.

After some investigation, I come to find out that this priest believes in annihilation.
Those that are saved go to heaven.
Those that are lost just disappear into nothingness never to be heard of again.

Someone else I know....believes that hell exists but is temporary and short lived and the person also then disappears into nothingness.

Jesus spoke of hell.
So how could it not exist?

He said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you believe hell exists?
Please use scripture.



Butch5

please forgive me for not using scripture im not trying to defend a position ..i am a seeker but i am more versed in theology that the average guy . I do not believe that heaven or hell are literal physical places they are not harps and brimstone ..that sounds like a rock band ..whatever is experienced in either is spiritual. It is real dont misunderstand but not physical i think annihilationism is bunk and so is the other ..the gory macabre descriptions that some preachers relish shows a disturbed mind and nothing about that is congruent with a loving or a God of justice. I can follow with scriptures at another time