Bible Study HELL DOES NOT EXIST

[GodsGrace]

please forgive me for not using scripture im not trying to defend a position ..i am a seeker but i am more versed in theology that the average guy . I do not believe that heaven or hell are literal physical places they are not harps and brimstone ..that sounds like a rock band ..whatever is experienced in either is spiritual. It is real dont misunderstand but not physical i think annihilationism is bunk and so is the other ..the gory macabre descriptions that some preachers relish shows a disturbed mind and nothing about that is congruent with a loving or a God of justice. I can follow with scriptures at another time

Hi A,
Welcome to the forum.
How could you be a seeker if you're well-versed in Theology?

What do you mean that the places are spiritual?
And if God is loving, why would there be a hell?

 

[Adradtos275]

Hi A,
Welcome to the forum.
How could you be a seeker if you're well-versed in Theology?

What do you mean that the places are spiritual?
And if God is loving, why would there b

Wondering i am pleased to make your acquaintance thanks
To answer your first question theology is an academic subject such as math science , you dont have to be a Christian or of any faith to know and love theology .there are biblical scholars who are agnostic i can refer you to one if you want proof .

when i say i think and let me make it clear it is what i think ,
That they are spiritual i mean that they are non physical your soul is not physical God is non physical love is non physical they are immaterial. We are not talking about physical things they are non spacial how do you measure a soul ? How long is your soul ? Non physical ..

How can a God of love create hell ? Well i dont see hell as torture i see it as torment i see that the door is locked from the inside . I see it as necessary in the end . In fact i believe a God of love must create hell not only for justice sake but because he will force no one to be with him .

 

[daninthelionsden]

Wondering i am pleased to make your acquaintance thanks
To answer your first question theology is an academic subject such as math science , you dont have to be a Christian or of any faith to know and love theology .there are biblical scholars who are agnostic i can refer you to one if you want proof .

when i say i think and let me make it clear it is what i think ,
That they are spiritual i mean that they are non physical your soul is not physical God is non physical love is non physical they are immaterial. We are not talking about physical things they are non spacial how do you measure a soul ? How long is your soul ? Non physical ..

How can a God of love create hell ? Well i dont see hell as torture i see it as torment i see that the door is locked from the inside . I see it as necessary in the end . In fact i believe a God of love must create hell not only for justice sake but because he will force no one to be with him .

I believe we (sheep)are given a place of rest to escape the torment of the rams as well.

 

[Adradtos275]

I believe we (sheep)are given a place of rest to escape the torment of the rams as well.

Lol Daniel agreed except i dont think its a place but yes its peace

 

[Butch5]

Nevertheless what you state isn't what Jesus stated.

And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I think you are in denial. Souls in heaven vs Souls in Hell.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Die once then face judgment. The Spirit of a person does return for that judgment. They are not reabsorbed or whatever you believe happens. They still exist. Spirit gives birth to Spirit.

You are free to believe what you believe and I don't expect to see a change so we will have to agree to disagree.

And those born of God are a new creation. Gods Spirit dwells with them forever. They can not die. Only our bodies. Death in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

The word hell in that passage is actually, Gehenna, a valley located outside if Jerusalem. You can go there now and see it if you visit Israel.

Why do you assume the soul under the altar are in Heaven? Also, Revelation is a book full of symbolism. What is your justification for claiming those are literally alive at this moment?

Everyone will believe what they want to believe. The question is, does it agree with Scripture? What I've said aligns perfectly with Scripture. What you've said doesn't. You said the spirit returns for judgment, yet the only spirit find in man in Scripture is God's spirit. Is God's spirit judged? It's also your position that man is immortal, yet Paul said the Father alone is immortal. Again, your claim isn't aligning with Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Found it. Enjoy. Have a pen & paper ready to copy the scriptures he gives.

Hi Edward,

This is a typical Christian teaching. However, as Gen 2:7 shows it is simply wrong.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:21 KJV)

The word creature here is soul. Is Moses saying that God created every living emotion that moves? Do emotions swim in the sea? No, do living beings swim in the sea? yes.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. (Gen. 1:24 KJV)

Again, creature is soul. Are cattle emotions? No. Is every creeping thing emotions? No. Are cattle living beings? Yes. Is every creeping thing living beings? Yes.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Did man become a living emotion? No. Did man become a living being? Yes. Whatever a soul is, it says man "is" one, not that he "has" one. So, Is man an emotion?

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. (Gen. 2:19 KJV)

Again, creature is soul. Did Adam name ever living emotion? No, Did Adam name every living being? Yes.

Notice also that before the word soul in each of these passages is the word "Living". A soul is alive. Are emotions living things? No. They're things that living beings have.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (Gen. 1:20 KJV)

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:21 KJV)

I think God established pretty clearly right in the very beginning of the Bible what a soul is. It's a living being.

What about the New Testament?

Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. (Matt. 2:20 KJV)

Was Herod trying to kill Jesus' emotions? No. He was trying to take his life. He was trying to kill a living being.

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matt. 10:39 KJV)

Is Jesus saying, he who finds his emotions will lose them and those who lose their emotions will find them? No. It's life. It's a living being.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(1 Cor. 15:45 KJV)

Was Adam made a living emotion? No. He was made a living being.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev. 12:11 KJV)

Is Revelation telling us that they did not love their emotions unto death? No. It's lives. It's their living being.

I could go on and on with this. I think it's pretty clear that a soul is a living being and tied intrinsically to life. It's not one's will or emotions. It's a living being. It's the whole person. The Bible is abundantly clear on this.

 

[Butch5]

please forgive me for not using scripture im not trying to defend a position ..i am a seeker but i am more versed in theology that the average guy . I do not believe that heaven or hell are literal physical places they are not harps and brimstone ..that sounds like a rock band ..whatever is experienced in either is spiritual. It is real dont misunderstand but not physical i think annihilationism is bunk and so is the other ..the gory macabre descriptions that some preachers relish shows a disturbed mind and nothing about that is congruent with a loving or a God of justice. I can follow with scriptures at another time

Hi Adradtos,

You say you're a seeker. Do you accept the Scriptures as authoritative and inerrant?

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering i am pleased to make your acquaintance thanks
To answer your first question theology is an academic subject such as math science , you dont have to be a Christian or of any faith to know and love theology .there are biblical scholars who are agnostic i can refer you to one if you want proof .

Hi A,
Yes, I know that theology is a subject and that some that teach it are not even believers. I won't be needing any proof!

You just don't sound like a seeker...you sound like someone that has already found.
How anyone could be an atheist (which some biblical scholars are) I don't really understand.
But that's a different subject for a different day.

when i say i think and let me make it clear it is what i think ,
That they are spiritual i mean that they are non physical your soul is not physical God is non physical love is non physical they are immaterial. We are not talking about physical things they are non spacial how do you measure a soul ? How long is your soul ? Non physical ..

OK. What you call the spiritual realm is what I call a "dimension".
Heaven is not so much a place as it is a different dimension from what we see and have here on earth.
I guess spiritual realm would also be a good definition.
In order for heaven to be a "place", we'd have to be able to go there even while still alive...
and this is not possible - so it can't be a place.

How can a God of love create hell ? Well i dont see hell as torture i see it as torment i see that the door is locked from the inside . I see it as necessary in the end . In fact i believe a God of love must create hell not only for justice sake but because he will force no one to be with him .

I couldn't agree more!

 

[GodsGrace]

The word hell in that passage is actually, Gehenna, a valley located outside if Jerusalem. You can go there now and see it if you visit Israel.

Why do you assume the soul under the altar are in Heaven? Also, Revelation is a book full of symbolism. What is your justification for claiming those are literally alive at this moment?

Everyone will believe what they want to believe. The question is, does it agree with Scripture? What I've said aligns perfectly with Scripture. What you've said doesn't. You said the spirit returns for judgment, yet the only spirit find in man in Scripture is God's spirit. Is God's spirit judged? It's also your position that man is immortal, yet Paul said the Father alone is immortal. Again, your claim isn't aligning with Scripture.

Gehenna is a valley near Jerusalem.
But when spoken of in the N.T. it meant the place where things are burned...which they were (refuse) as you know.

I also agree with you that it's difficult to use the book of revelation since it is very symbolic and I'd rather stick to scripture that is plain to understand.

As to the idea of body, soul, and spirit not being scriptural.....
what do you make of 1 Thessalonians 5:23, which I've posted to you many times now.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also,
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Both verses refer to the soul, the spirit and the body of man...which, in fact, is the composition of man.

To get the above conflated with the BREATH OF LIFE, which God gave to all living beings, is incorrect.
Algae are alive. Do they have the breath of life? Do they have a soul? Do they have a spirit?
NO. They have only the breath of life, which God gave to all.

 

[Butch5]

Gehenna is a valley near Jerusalem.
But when spoken of in the N.T. it meant the place where things are burned...which they were (refuse) as you know.

I also agree with you that it's difficult to use the book of revelation since it is very symbolic and I'd rather stick to scripture that is plain to understand.

As to the idea of body, soul, and spirit not being scriptural.....
what do you make of 1 Thessalonians 5:23, which I've posted to you many times now.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also,
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Both verses refer to the soul, the spirit and the body of man...which, in fact, is the composition of man.

To get the above conflated with the BREATH OF LIFE, which God gave to all living beings, is incorrect.
Algae are alive. Do they have the breath of life? Do they have a soul? Do they have a spirit?
NO. They have only the breath of life, which God gave to all.

Hi Wondering,

I don't know where you got this idea, "As to the idea of body, soul, and spirit not being scriptural.....".
I never said any such thing.

Regarding your statement about conflating the breath of life with, body, soul, and spirit, you can say that, but unless you can prove it, it's just an opinion. I've shown clearly that God put the breath or spirit of life in man. So, we know that the spirit in man is the breath/spirit of life. If you can show any other spirit/breath in man, please do. I've not seen anything in Scripture that indicates that there are two spirits in man. That would have to be the case if you're correct. So, please show where God put this "other" spirit in man. If you can't do that then you're only expressing your opinion.

"But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. (Job 32:8 NAS)

Notice, one spirit, not two.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

I don't know where you got this idea, "As to the idea of body, soul, and spirit not being scriptural.....".
I never said any such thing.

Regarding your statement about conflating the breath of life with, body, soul, and spirit, you can say that, but unless you can prove it, it's just an opinion. I've shown clearly that God put the breath or spirit of life in man. So, we know that the spirit in man is the breath/spirit of life. If you can show any other spirit/breath in man, please do. I've not seen anything in Scripture that indicates that there are two spirits in man. That would have to be the case if you're correct. So, please show where God put this "other" spirit in man. If you can't do that then you're only expressing your opinion.

"But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. (Job 32:8 NAS)

Notice, one spirit, not two.

I don't state my opinion about anything.
That man is composed of body, soul, and spirit is the teaching of at least 3 main denominations that I'm aware of.

You keep referring to Genesis 2:7
It doesn't say God put a spirit into man....
It says that God breathed the breath of life into man.
No mention of spirit.

So I don't know where YOU get the idea of two different spirits in man.

I gave you two verses to which you did not reply.
Why do we even post verses?
It's to show that what we are saying is biblical and is taught by the N.T.

Please explain
1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 in a manner that does not make them say BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.
Thanks.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 4:12
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Above is my proof...
now you state yours or stop teaching an biblical idea.

 

[Butch5]

I don't state my opinion about anything.
That man is composed of body, soul, and spirit is the teaching of at least 3 main denominations that I'm aware of.

You keep referring to Genesis 2:7
It doesn't say God put a spirit into man....
It says that God breathed the breath of life into man.
No mention of spirit.

So I don't know where YOU get the idea of two different spirits in man.

I gave you two verses to which you did not reply.
Why do we even post verses?
It's to show that what we are saying is biblical and is taught by the N.T.

Please explain
1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 in a manner that does not make them say BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.
Thanks.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 4:12
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Above is my proof...
now you state yours or stop teaching an biblical idea.

Firstly, the word spirit and breath are the same Greek and Hebrew words. They can be translated wind, breath, or spirit. It's simply what the translator thinks is best. So, Gen 2:7 says that God breathed the breath or spirit of life into man. So, the spirit in man is the breath/spirit of life. You didn't give anything at all that suggests there are two spirits in man. The passages you posted don't prove your point. They simply mention body, soul, and spirit. I've said probably a quintrillion times now, man is a Soul. The soul consists of the body and the breath/spirit of life. All three are accounted for. I've already explained 1 Thes. 5:23 for Edward. It is simply referring to the whole person. Notice the words, "sanctify you entirely", and "be preserved complete". These are phrases that refer to the whole person. The body, soul, and spirit, is the whole person. There is nothing in that passage that says man is a body, soul, and spirit or that he consists of three parts. Just because Paul mentions three things doesn't necessitate that he is confirming your belief.

In Hebrews Paul speaks of the separation of soul and spirit. The soul is the entire person. If the spirit/breath gets separated from the soul the person dies. Again, there is nothing here that says man consists of three parts.

This is a classic case of begging the question. Your premise is that man is three parts. You see a passage where three parts are mentioned and then conclude man consists of three parts. It's a logical fallacy.

I've already given you my evidence.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

The body and the breath/spirit of life "BECAME" a living soul.

Webster defines become as,

be·come | \ bi-ˈkəm , bē- \
became\ bi-ˈkām , bē- \; become; becoming

Definition of become​

intransitive verb
1a: to come into existence
b: to come to bebecome sickThey both became teachers.
2: to undergo change or developmentThe pain was becoming more intense.

Definition of BECOME

to come into existence; to come to be; to undergo change or development… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

To come into existence. That means prior to this it didn't exist . So, God breathing the breath/ spirit into man made something come about that didn't previously exist. That is the soul. The soul is a living being that consists of "TWO" parts, the man, body, and the breath/spirit of life from God.

The passage is crystal clear.

I'd still be interested in see Where God put a second spirit into man....

 

[GodsGrace]

Firstly, the word spirit and breath are the same Greek and Hebrew words. They can be translated wind, breath, or spirit. It's simply what the translator thinks is best. So, Gen 2:7 says that God breathed the breath or spirit of life into man.

Translators use the word they feel best expresses an IDEA...not a word.
I speak 4 languages (one not that well) so I know what happens when translating.
If the Greek word for breath is the same and they used the word BREATH instead of SPIRIT, it means that it was understood that BREATH was the correct translation.

Génesis 2:7 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas
Entonces el SEÑOR Dios formó al hombre del polvo de la tierra, y sopló en su nariz el aliento de vida; y fue el hombre un ser viviente.

The Spanish version uses the word BREATH.


CEI
allora il Signore Dio plasmò l'uomo con polvere del suolo e soffiò nelle sue narici un alito di vita e l'uomo divenne un essere vivente.

The Italian version uses the word BREATH.


And here are some English versions:

New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

New Living Translation
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Berean Study Bible
Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

International Standard Version
So the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground, breathed life into his lungs, and the man became a living being.


In all the English versions, as in the other languages, the bible translators used the term BREATH OF LIFE.
Please show me one version where it states the SPIRIT.

Man does not have two spririts.
By YOUR reasoning YOU come up with two,,,,no one else does because Genesis is speaking about the breath of life...
NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

And, BTW, even IF it did say Spirit of God, that quickly disappeared when Adam disobeyed.

So, the spirit in man is the breath/spirit of life. You didn't give anything at all that suggests there are two spirits in man.

I NEVER said there are two spirits in man.
If you can't understand me, tell me right now because my time is limited I'm afraid.
YOU are stating there are two spirits in man by my definition...
Instead it is YOUR definition that allows for 2 spirits.....
This is nonsense and not what I wish to address.

I'm addressing the fact that man is composed of 3 parts.
BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.
One spirit...the Spirit of God WHEN man becomes born again and received the HOLY SPIRIT.

The passages you posted don't prove your point. They simply mention body, soul, and spirit. I've said probably a quintrillion times now, man is a Soul.

And each time you misrepresent what man is.
Man is not a soul. What is a soul? Could you see one?

Does man have a body or not?
Does man have a spirit or not? (if saved).

Why do you suppose my 2 verses mention BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT...
Maybe because that IS how man is composed?

Do you not believe scripture?
It cannot be any clearer.

A man is BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.

Someone, I think Hopeful, posted a great video link that explains it really well.
It's no one's fault if you believe you have the correct understanding even though everyone is telling you otherwise.
If NO ONE agrees with me about a doctrine --- I sit up and listen and think about it really well.

The soul consists of the body and the breath/spirit of life. All three are accounted for. I've already explained 1 Thes. 5:23 for Edward. It is simply referring to the whole person. Notice the words, "sanctify you entirely", and "be preserved complete". These are phrases that refer to the whole person. The body, soul, and spirit, is the whole person. There is nothing in that passage that says man is a body, soul, and spirit or that he consists of three parts. Just because Paul mentions three things doesn't necessitate that he is confirming your belief.

What do you mean it consists of the whole person?
What are YOU speaking of?
Aren't you speaking of the whole person?

Paul isn't confirming my belief.
I learned from Paul...I'm confirming HIS belief.

In Hebrews Paul speaks of the separation of soul and spirit. The soul is the entire person. If the spirit/breath gets separated from the soul the person dies. Again, there is nothing here that says man consists of three parts.

This is a classic case of begging the question. Your premise is that man is three parts. You see a passage where three parts are mentioned and then conclude man consists of three parts. It's a logical fallacy.

Oh for goodness sakes Butch...
A confirmed theological idea accepted by all denomination is not a logical fallacy.

Hope you read the following.
You like the ECFs...read THE EARLY CHURCH in the article.

Tripartite (theology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've already given you my evidence.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

The body and the breath/spirit of life "BECAME" a living soul.

Webster defines become as,

be·come | \ bi-ˈkəm , bē- \
became\ bi-ˈkām , bē- \; become; becoming

Definition of become​

intransitive verb
1a: to come into existence
b: to come to bebecome sickThey both became teachers.
2: to undergo change or developmentThe pain was becoming more intense.

Definition of BECOME

to come into existence; to come to be; to undergo change or development… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

To come into existence. That means prior to this it didn't exist . So, God breathing the breath/ spirit into man made something come about that didn't previously exist. That is the soul. The soul is a living being that consists of "TWO" parts, the man, body, and the breath/spirit of life from God.

The passage is crystal clear.

I'd still be interested in see Where God put a second spirit into man....

Please cease with the second spirit.

Man came alive when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

When a plane is in danger, the controller asks HOW MANY SOULS ARE ON BOARD....

But he means, of course, PERSONS....
A soul without a body is A GHOST....and not a human being.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Translators use the word they feel best expresses an IDEA...not a word.
I speak 4 languages (one not that well) so I know what happens when translating.
If the Greek word for breath is the same and they used the word BREATH instead of SPIRIT, it means that it was understood that BREATH was the correct translation.

Génesis 2:7 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas
Entonces el SEÑOR Dios formó al hombre del polvo de la tierra, y sopló en su nariz el aliento de vida; y fue el hombre un ser viviente.

The Spanish version uses the word BREATH.


CEI
allora il Signore Dio plasmò l'uomo con polvere del suolo e soffiò nelle sue narici un alito di vita e l'uomo divenne un essere vivente.

The Italian version uses the word BREATH.


And here are some English versions:

New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

New Living Translation
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Berean Study Bible
Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

International Standard Version
So the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground, breathed life into his lungs, and the man became a living being.


In all the English versions, as in the other languages, the bible translators used the term BREATH OF LIFE.
Please show me one version where it states the SPIRIT.

Man does not have two spririts.
By YOUR reasoning YOU come up with two,,,,no one else does because Genesis is speaking about the breath of life...
NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

And, BTW, even IF it did say Spirit of God, that quickly disappeared when Adam disobeyed.


I NEVER said there are two spirits in man.
If you can't understand me, tell me right now because my time is limited I'm afraid.
YOU are stating there are two spirits in man by my definition...
Instead it is YOUR definition that allows for 2 spirits.....
This is nonsense and not what I wish to address.

I'm addressing the fact that man is composed of 3 parts.
BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.
One spirit...the Spirit of God WHEN man becomes born again and received the HOLY SPIRIT.



And each time you misrepresent what man is.
Man is not a soul. What is a soul? Could you see one?

Does man have a body or not?
Does man have a spirit or not? (if saved).

Why do you suppose my 2 verses mention BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT...
Maybe because that IS how man is composed?

Do you not believe scripture?
It cannot be any clearer.

A man is BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.

Someone, I think Hopeful, posted a great video link that explains it really well.
It's no one's fault if you believe you have the correct understanding even though everyone is telling you otherwise.
If NO ONE agrees with me about a doctrine --- I sit up and listen and think about it really well.



What do you mean it consists of the whole person?
What are YOU speaking of?
Aren't you speaking of the whole person?

Paul isn't confirming my belief.
I learned from Paul...I'm confirming HIS belief.



Oh for goodness sakes Butch...
A confirmed theological idea accepted by all denomination is not a logical fallacy.

Hope you read the following.
You like the ECFs...read THE EARLY CHURCH in the article.

Tripartite (theology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Please cease with the second spirit.

Man came alive when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

When a plane is in danger, the controller asks HOW MANY SOULS ARE ON BOARD....

But he means, of course, PERSONS....
A soul without a body is A GHOST....and not a human being.

Bravo!

 

[Butch5]

In all the English versions, as in the other languages, the bible translators used the term BREATH OF LIFE.
Please show me one version where it states the SPIRIT.

Man does not have two spririts.
By YOUR reasoning YOU come up with two,,,,no one else does because Genesis is speaking about the breath of life...
NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

And, BTW, even IF it did say Spirit of God, that quickly disappeared when Adam disobeyed.

In post 149 you said this.

As to the idea of body, soul, and spirit not being scriptural.....
what do you make of 1 Thessalonians 5:23, which I've posted to you many times now.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also,
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Both verses refer to the soul, the spirit and the body of man...which, in fact, is the composition of man.

To get the above conflated with the BREATH OF LIFE, which God gave to all living beings, is incorrect.

You said I was conflating the breath of life in man with the spirit in man. You said God gave the breath of life to all living beings. So, by your own admission there is in man a spirit and the breath of life.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8 KJV)

spirit=Ruach

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. (Gen. 6:17 KJV)

Breath=Ruach

So, you see the spirit in man and the breath of life in man are the same thing. They are the ruach. This is the point I've been making. You argue that they are not the same thing. Since you claim they are not the same, then, they must be different ones. That would mean that there are two and one. This would mean that there are two spirits in man. That is what you are saying when you claim the breath of life and the spirit in man are not the same thing. You are saying that there are two ruachs in man instead of one.

You also said that the breath of life was not the Spirit of God. Well, see below.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Gen. 1:2 KJV)

Spirit=Ruach

So, you see, the breath of God and the Spirit of God are the same. The Ruach of life, the ruach in man, and the Ruach of God. All the same.

As you can see, we have the ruach of life, (breath of life) and the Ruach of God (spirit of God). So, we see that the breath of life and the Spirit of God are both ruach. So, they are the same.

I NEVER said there are two spirits in man.
If you can't understand me, tell me right now because my time is limited I'm afraid.
YOU are stating there are two spirits in man by my definition...
Instead it is YOUR definition that allows for 2 spirits.....
This is nonsense and not what I wish to address.

I know you didn't say it. It is, however, the result of what you did say. That being that I conflated the breath of life with the spirit in man. As I have shown they are one and the same. Your claim that they are not one and the same leads to the only logical conclusion that they are two. If they are two, then there are two spirits in man and not one.

I'm addressing the fact that man is composed of 3 parts.
BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.
One spirit...the Spirit of God WHEN man becomes born again and received the HOLY SPIRIT.



And each time you misrepresent what man is.
Man is not a soul. What is a soul? Could you see one?

There aren't three parts to a man. I've shown and explained this numerous times. I've shown Gen 2:7 which gives us the creation of man. He is a living soul which is composed of two parts, body and breath/spirit of life.

You argue that man is not a soul. Once again,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Contrary to what you say, the Bible states plainly that man became a living soul.

Does man have a body or not?
Does man have a spirit or not? (if saved).

Why do you suppose my 2 verses mention BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT...
Maybe because that IS how man is composed?

I already explained why the verse contains body, soul, and spirit. However, as I pointed out it doesn't say man is a, body, soul, and spirit. That is simply your interpretation of the verse. We know that interpretation isn't correct because it runs afoul of Gen. 2 :7

Do you not believe scripture?
It cannot be any clearer.

Well, I'd have to ask you the same. Do you believe the Scriptures? I can only assume the answer is no. You say the breath of life and the spirit of God aren't the same when Scripture shows they are (see above). You claim that man is not a soul, when Scripture plainly states that he is (see above).

A man is BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT.

Someone, I think Hopeful, posted a great video link that explains it really well.
It's no one's fault if you believe you have the correct understanding even though everyone is telling you otherwise.
If NO ONE agrees with me about a doctrine --- I sit up and listen and think about it really well.

Yeah, everyone is "telling" me otherwise. No one has made a case from Scripture. Sure 2 verses have been suggested. neither of which says man consists of three parts. But rather they've been interpreted that way. As if one's interpretation of a passage is infallible. I didn't give an interpretation. The Bible states plainly that God created man from the dust of the earth, breathed into him the breath/spirit of life, and man "BECAME" a living soul. No interpretation needed. It's stated plainly. If you choose to listen to what everyone is "telling" you as opposed to what is plainly stated in Scripture, that's up to you. I'm not going down that road. I've been there. I've had pastors, theologians, and denominations, teach me enough false doctrine. Besides, I don't need someone teach me what is plainly stated in Scripture.

What do you mean it consists of the whole person?
What are YOU speaking of?
Aren't you speaking of the whole person?

Paul isn't confirming my belief.
I learned from Paul...I'm confirming HIS belief.

Just what I said, the soul is the whole person

Oh for goodness sakes Butch...
A confirmed theological idea accepted by all denomination is not a logical fallacy.

You're reasoning was fallacious. It is what is known as begging the question. It's where the conclusion is just a restatement of the premise. It goes like this.
Your premise-Man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit.
Evidence- in 1 Thes. 5:23 Paul mentions. body, soul, and spirit.
Conclusion- Man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit.

There's no argument there. The conclusion simply restates the premise. That's begging the question or circular reasoning.

Hope you read the following.
You like the ECFs...read THE EARLY CHURCH in the article.

Tripartite (theology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Please cease with the second spirit.

Man came alive when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

When a plane is in danger, the controller asks HOW MANY SOULS ARE ON BOARD....

But he means, of course, PERSONS....
A soul without a body is A GHOST....and not a human being.

So, soul means person? Now you're agreeing with me?

I'm sorry but you're not making sense here. You just said that a soul is a person. Further up you said man is not a soul. However, man is a person. How can man be a person and a soul be a person, but man not be a soul?

You said man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. So, can we conclude that you believe that man consists of three parts, a body, a person, and a spirit? Does man have a person inside of him?

You're contradicting your own statements. I said that the soul is the whole person. You said no. Now you're saying the soul is the person. Which is it? Is the soul a person or part of a person?

It seems to me that you don't understand what you're saying. If so, why are you telling me I'm wrong?

 

[Randy]

The word hell in that passage is actually, Gehenna, a valley located outside if Jerusalem. You can go there now and see it if you visit Israel.

Why do you assume the soul under the altar are in Heaven? Also, Revelation is a book full of symbolism. What is your justification for claiming those are literally alive at this moment?

Everyone will believe what they want to believe. The question is, does it agree with Scripture? What I've said aligns perfectly with Scripture. What you've said doesn't. You said the spirit returns for judgment, yet the only spirit find in man in Scripture is God's spirit. Is God's spirit judged? It's also your position that man is immortal, yet Paul said the Father alone is immortal. Again, your claim isn't aligning with Scripture.

The word hell in that passage is actually, Gehenna, a valley located outside if Jerusalem. You can go there now and see it if you visit Israel.

Why do you assume the soul under the altar are in Heaven? Also, Revelation is a book full of symbolism. What is your justification for claiming those are literally alive at this moment?

Everyone will believe what they want to believe. The question is, does it agree with Scripture? What I've said aligns perfectly with Scripture. What you've said doesn't. You said the spirit returns for judgment, yet the only spirit find in man in Scripture is God's spirit. Is God's spirit judged? It's also your position that man is immortal, yet Paul said the Father alone is immortal. Again, your claim isn't aligning with Scripture.

I would identify the spirit with in me as my own spirit. Since I am born again I do have Gods Spirit living in me.

 

[GodsGrace]

In post 149 you said this.



You said I was conflating the breath of life in man with the spirit in man. You said God gave the breath of life to all living beings. So, by your own admission there is in man a spirit and the breath of life.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8 KJV)

spirit=Ruach

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. (Gen. 6:17 KJV)

Breath=Ruach

So, you see the spirit in man and the breath of life in man are the same thing. They are the ruach. This is the point I've been making. You argue that they are not the same thing. Since you claim they are not the same, then, they must be different ones. That would mean that there are two and one. This would mean that there are two spirits in man. That is what you are saying when you claim the breath of life and the spirit in man are not the same thing. You are saying that there are two ruachs in man instead of one.

You also said that the breath of life was not the Spirit of God. Well, see below.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Gen. 1:2 KJV)

Spirit=Ruach

So, you see, the breath of God and the Spirit of God are the same. The Ruach of life, the ruach in man, and the Ruach of God. All the same.

As you can see, we have the ruach of life, (breath of life) and the Ruach of God (spirit of God). So, we see that the breath of life and the Spirit of God are both ruach. So, they are the same.

I know you didn't say it. It is, however, the result of what you did say. That being that I conflated the breath of life with the spirit in man. As I have shown they are one and the same. Your claim that they are not one and the same leads to the only logical conclusion that they are two. If they are two, then there are two spirits in man and not one.

There aren't three parts to a man. I've shown and explained this numerous times. I've shown Gen 2:7 which gives us the creation of man. He is a living soul which is composed of two parts, body and breath/spirit of life.

You argue that man is not a soul. Once again,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Contrary to what you say, the Bible states plainly that man became a living soul.


I already explained why the verse contains body, soul, and spirit. However, as I pointed out it doesn't say man is a, body, soul, and spirit. That is simply your interpretation of the verse. We know that interpretation isn't correct because it runs afoul of Gen. 2 :7

Well, I'd have to ask you the same. Do you believe the Scriptures? I can only assume the answer is no. You say the breath of life and the spirit of God aren't the same when Scripture shows they are (see above). You claim that man is not a soul, when Scripture plainly states that he is (see above).

Yeah, everyone is "telling" me otherwise. No one has made a case from Scripture. Sure 2 verses have been suggested. neither of which says man consists of three parts. But rather they've been interpreted that way. As if one's interpretation of a passage is infallible. I didn't give an interpretation. The Bible states plainly that God created man from the dust of the earth, breathed into him the breath/spirit of life, and man "BECAME" a living soul. No interpretation needed. It's stated plainly. If you choose to listen to what everyone is "telling" you as opposed to what is plainly stated in Scripture, that's up to you. I'm not going down that road. I've been there. I've had pastors, theologians, and denominations, teach me enough false doctrine. Besides, I don't need someone teach me what is plainly stated in Scripture.


Just what I said, the soul is the whole person

You're reasoning was fallacious. It is what is known as begging the question. It's where the conclusion is just a restatement of the premise. It goes like this.
Your premise-Man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit.
Evidence- in 1 Thes. 5:23 Paul mentions. body, soul, and spirit.
Conclusion- Man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit.

There's no argument there. The conclusion simply restates the premise. That's begging the question or circular reasoning.

So, soul means person? Now you're agreeing with me?

I'm sorry but you're not making sense here. You just said that a soul is a person. Further up you said man is not a soul. However, man is a person. How can man be a person and a soul be a person, but man not be a soul?

You said man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. So, can we conclude that you believe that man consists of three parts, a body, a person, and a spirit? Does man have a person inside of him?

You're contradicting your own statements. I said that the soul is the whole person. You said no. Now you're saying the soul is the person. Which is it? Is the soul a person or part of a person?

It seems to me that you don't understand what you're saying. If so, why are you telling me I'm wrong?

I said a soul is not a person.
I said a person has a soul.

Question:
God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and he became a living being,,,,which is what the Hebrew states.

Did God breath into animals?
Do animals have a soul?
Do animals have a spirit?

 

[Randy]

And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in that valley in Jerusalem.

But don't fear them that can't kill the soul in that valley in Jerusalem.

Sure Jesus meant that valley in Jerusalem. NOT

 

[GodsGrace]

And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in that valley in Jerusalem.

But don't fear them that can't kill the soul in that valley in Jerusalem.

Sure Jesus meant that valley in Jerusalem. NOT

Jesus was referring to that valley because they burned refuse there.

He likened it to hell.

 

[Butch5]

I said a soul is not a person.
I said a person has a soul.

Question:
God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and he became a living being,,,,which is what the Hebrew states.

Did God breath into animals?
Do animals have a soul?
Do animals have a spirit?

In post 153 you said,

Please cease with the second spirit.

Man came alive when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

When a plane is in danger, the controller asks HOW MANY SOULS ARE ON BOARD....

But he means, of course, PERSONS....
A soul without a body is A GHOST....and not a human being.

How many souls are on board? But he means, of course, persons. How is that not calling a soul a person? You said, when he asked how many souls, he means persons. Now, how can you say you didn't say a person is a soul?

Apparently He did because they too, "ARE" souls. Do they have a soul? They are a soul. Do they have a spirt? Yes, they too, have the breath/spirit of life.