Hell is a PLACE

[Butch5]

selihah
Butch5
As I said in my post....
The Jewish beliefs have changed over time. (And yes, some sects believed different things especially Sadducees...for good reason)
Christian beliefs haven't changed much at all. Especially concerning Heaven.

Beliefs concerning Hell have been all over the place though.
And today they still are all over from geographical location to just relational. Some have eternal torment and others say that "eternal torment" is hyperbole.

It's a definite"maybe/perhaps" as to what happens to the unsaved...but whatever it is it won't be pleasant...for however long it lasts.

My destination is Heaven...I can't go to Hell as God doesn't make false promises.

I don't fear Hell as it isn't my destination nor am I motivated to Heaven by a fear of the alternative. I don't know of anyone who is or would be. People just aren't wired that way for long term behavior modification.

But all this makes for a great discussion.

Well, maybe the heavenly destiny doctrine needs to be looked at too. The Bible doesn't teach that people go Heaven.

 

[KevinK]

Kevin, I have question based on what you've said here. How are people suffering in torment before the judgement?

Butch5, that is a very valid question, and one I have heard often. Here's my answer: I don't know. How to reconcile my experience with scripture I haven't the slightest idea. I know what I saw and experienced.

 

[KevinK]

unchonchinable....

Spellcheck is apparently not your friend, nor even a passing acquaintance.

Anyways, this thread was intended to have one simple message (I don't think it bears repeating at this point). Beyond this simple geography lesson, I really will have nothing to say. Hijack away.

 

[KevinK]

Kevin,

Could it be that the following information provides a better interpretation?

I consider that hell/Hades/Gehenna are real and this will be a conscious, frightful place. But I can’t conclude about its exact nature for these reasons:

I accept that the biblical writers used metaphorical and not literal language. My main reasons for such a view are:

Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell’s description cannot be literal.

Let’s use Jude as an example. He described the after-life as ‘eternal fire’ (Jude 1:7) but that is contrasted with ‘utter darkness’ (Jude 1:13). For the angels, Jude writes of ‘gloomy darkness’ (Jude 1:6). Again, literal fire and literal darkness would be contradictory – from my human perspective.

This issue is made knotty by the ‘lake of fire’ (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8. This hardly conforms with the ‘blackest darkness’.

John the Baptist and Jesus also describe hell as ‘fire’ (Matt 3:10; 25:41) but also as ‘darkness’ (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).

Also Matt 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. They are spirit beings. How is it possible for fire to work on non-physical beings?
Therefore, I accept a metaphorical understanding of hell/Hades/Gehenna. It does involve conscious suffering/torment (cf Luke 16:23-24) , but its nature is unknown to me because of the language used. Evidence from outside the NT also supports this perspective.

See fire and darkness appearing together in Jewish writings such as Qumran (1QS 2:8; 4:13), 1 Enoch 103:7; 2 Enoch 10:2-3; Jerusalem Talmud, Shekalim 6:1, 49d. These writings also speak of the bodies of the wicked that are rotting with worms and maggots (Judith 16:17; Sirach (Ben Sira) 7:17, cf Isa 66:24). It was ‘hot as fire and cold as ice’ replacing eternal torment in 2 Enoch 14:20(12).

This is taken from my article, Is there literal fire in hell?

Oz

OK, Oz, I've actually read your article previously. While it's a very well-written treatise on the metaphorical nature of Hell, esp. hellfire, I must go on record and disagree some of your basic conclusions. It looks like we agree that Hell (the current Hell and the eventual Gehenna) are "real" places (correct me if I've got that wrong), I vehemently disagree that hellfire is metaphorical. I can't support that with my personal vision, unfortunately, because I didn't see any of it. I was only allowed into the first level of Hell; the fires and torturing demons all lie beyond the first level. So how do I support literal fire? From the study of other people's OBEs and NDEs. I know from my experience that people do visit Hell and are shown things. So I have little reason to doubt when Bill Weiss says he saw the lake of fire, or that Bryan Melvin saw virtual reality torture chambers, or that Mary Katherine Baxter saw all of the above. No, I can't prove those things, I can't explain those things even as a scientist, but I believe in those things. Then add that Pope John Paul II was seen burning in flames for telling people that a physical Hell does not exist when he very well knew that it did- well, you've got my testimony.

If you want to see a dark fire for yourself, turn the room lights off and stare in a mirror. The mitochondria in your eukaryotic cells are burning carbohydrate fuel and packaging little fuel packs known as ATP, formed from the phosphorylation of adenosine-diphosphate molecules. It does all this without formation of a single photon of light. I.e. it's a dark fire.

 

[turnorburn]

Looks like your having one of these Kevin..

John 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.

18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.

19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?

20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:

21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.

22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.

25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?

27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?

 

[OzSpen]

OK, Oz, I've actually read your article previously. While it's a very well-written treatise on the metaphorical nature of Hell, esp. hellfire, I must go on record and disagree some of your basic conclusions. It looks like we agree that Hell (the current Hell and the eventual Gehenna) are "real" places (correct me if I've got that wrong), I vehemently disagree that hellfire is metaphorical. I can't support that with my personal vision, unfortunately, because I didn't see any of it. I was only allowed into the first level of Hell; the fires and torturing demons all lie beyond the first level. So how do I support literal fire? From the study of other people's OBEs and NDEs. I know from my experience that people do visit Hell and are shown things. So I have little reason to doubt when Bill Weiss says he saw the lake of fire, or that Bryan Melvin saw virtual reality torture chambers, or that Mary Katherine Baxter saw all of the above. No, I can't prove those things, I can't explain those things even as a scientist, but I believe in those things. Then add that Pope John Paul II was seen burning in flames for telling people that a physical Hell does not exist when he very well knew that it did- well, you've got my testimony.

If you want to see a dark fire for yourself, turn the room lights off and stare in a mirror. The mitochondria in your eukaryotic cells are burning carbohydrate fuel and packaging little fuel packs known as ATP, formed from the phosphorylation of adenosine-diphosphate molecules. It does all this without formation of a single photon of light. I.e. it's a dark fire.

You should never depend on your existential experiences, whether out of the body (OBE) or near-death (NDE), for understanding the afterlife. This is because they are very unreliable and dependent on human assessment. Depend on Scripture for your theology of what happens at death. That's what we are required to do. See 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV).

When I checked out Scripture, this is what I found:

Is there literal fire in hell?

Facts about Hell

Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

When I checked out NDE, this is what I discovered:

Near-death experiences are not all light: What about the dark experiences?

This is why relying on OBE and NDE for your views of hell and the afterlife are extremely dangerous:

Australia’s mass media mogul, the late Kerry Packer, had this said about him at the beginning of his obituary, as recorded in The Age [Melbourne] newspaper, ‘The last time Kerry Packer died, 15 years ago, he quickly took the opportunity to denounce the existence of an afterlife. “I’ve been on the other side and let me tell you son, there’s f—ing nothing there,” he was fond of saying’ [1].

Dorothy Rowe reported of Packer:

When the Australian media mogul Kerry Packer had recovered from a massive heart attack during which he virtually died, he told his friend Phillip Adams, “I’ve been to the other side, and let me tell you, son, there’s f—ing nothing there. There’s no one waiting for you. There’s no one to judge you, so you can do what you bloody well like (in Rowe 2009:205).

Oz

Notes

[1] The Age, Kerry Francis Bullmore Packer 1937-2005: Obituary (online), 28 December 2005. Available at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/12/27/1135445572500.html?page=fullpage (Accessed 1 January 2016).

Bibliography

Rowe, D 2009. What Should I Believe? Why Our Beliefs about the Nature of Death and the Purpose of Life Dominate Our Lives. London and New York: Routledge.

 

[OzSpen]

Well, thanks for their opinions, but I'll stick with the Scriptures.

So what did you do? You gave me your opinion while denigrating the post that I made by dumbing it down to 'their opinions'.

So how do you decide on the etymology of a Greek or Hebrew word when used in Scripture? Ever heard of this Scripture? 'Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).

The etymology I gave you from Keil & Delitzsch (OT) and Colin Brown (LXX & NT) are from those who know what they are talking about in exegesis of the text.

I also am sticking with the Scriptures but I examine closely what the text states in the original languages. That is NOT contrary to what Scripture states.

Oz

 

[KevinK]

We're not going to agree, OzSpen. You're not going to change my mind, and I harbor no illusions about changing yours.

However, just to be clear: where do you stand on the geography? Do you think Hell is a physical place? (The main point of the thread, and it's been a long enough 6 pages that I've lost track).

 

[OzSpen]

That's interesting, but I don't think it accords with Scripture. According to David the thoughts of the dead perish the day they die and According to Paul if there is no resurrection then those who died in Christ have perished.

To which verse of David are you referring? I do wish you would reference your Scripture that refers to David. Are you referring to Psalm 146:4 (HCSB), which reads:
'When his breath leaves him,
he returns to the ground;
on that day his plans die'.

If that is the verse to which you refer, what does it mean, since it is poetry?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

We're not going to agree, OzSpen. You're not going to change my mind, and I harbor no illusions about changing yours.

However, just to be clear: where do you stand on the geography? Do you think Hell is a physical place? (The main point of the thread, and it's been a long enough 6 pages that I've lost track).

God decides where the place of hell is. That's his business. He has NOT told us the geography of where hell will be in Scripture. Some have tried to use 2 Pet 2:4 (ESV) as a location for hell, 'cast them into hell', with the translation of 'cast them down to hell' (KJV).

However, the NT Greek for this passage, when translated to English,states, 'cast into tartarus'. Tartarus is a place of torment and interment.

Oz

 

[KevinK]

God decides where the place of hell is. That's his business. He has NOT told us the geography of where hell will be in Scripture. Some have tried to use 2 Pet 2:4 (ESV) as a location for hell, 'cast them into hell', with the translation of 'cast them down to hell' (KJV).

However, the NT Greek for this passage, when translated to English,states, 'cast into tartarus'. Tartarus is a place of torment and interment.

Oz

Yes, but do you think it's a physical place? GPS coordinates not requested at this time. Just is it physical?

 

[JohnDB]

Spellcheck is apparently not your friend, nor even a passing acquaintance.

Anyways, this thread was intended to have one simple message (I don't think it bears repeating at this point). Beyond this simple geography lesson, I really will have nothing to say. Hijack away.

Yes,. My phone does as it pleases at times. It's spellchecker has a rather independent and spiteful spirit about it.

But also with the Hijack....

I think most are done...

But we would like to hear this message and description of your vision. (Another thread?)
And if you would like for it to be tested as this premise was...bring it right here.
If no testing is desired the Testimony forum is the place to put it. You have been here for two years...I'm sure you know where to find it.

But in the meantime this has been a most enjoyable discussion.

 

[KevinK]

Yes,. My phone does as it pleases at times. It's spellchecker has a rather independent and spiteful spirit about it.

But also with the Hijack....

I think most are done...

But we would like to hear this message and description of your vision. (Another thread?)
And if you would like for it to be tested as this premise was...bring it right here.
If no testing is desired the Testimony forum is the place to put it. You have been here for two years...I'm sure you know where to find it.

But in the meantime this has been a most enjoyable discussion.

Easy-peasy! I've already delineated most of my story in another thread. I just need to find it, recobble it back together, and repost it into Testimonials. Should be able to get started almost immediately. Should be fun!

 

[Edward]

Why wouldn't hell be real? Scripture says it is. I've heard and watched many testimonials of NDE. Of course some are fake. Others are real.

You should never depend on your existential experiences, whether out of the body (OBE) or near-death (NDE), for understanding the afterlife. This is because they are very unreliable and dependent on human assessment. Depend on Scripture for your theology of what happens at death. That's what we are required to do. See 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV).

When I checked out Scripture, this is what I found:

Is there literal fire in hell?

Facts about Hell

Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

When I checked out NDE, this is what I discovered:

Near-death experiences are not all light: What about the dark experiences?

This is why relying on OBE and NDE for your views of hell and the afterlife are extremely dangerous:

Australia’s mass media mogul, the late Kerry Packer, had this said about him at the beginning of his obituary, as recorded in The Age [Melbourne] newspaper, ‘The last time Kerry Packer died, 15 years ago, he quickly took the opportunity to denounce the existence of an afterlife. “I’ve been on the other side and let me tell you son, there’s f—ing nothing there,” he was fond of saying’ [1].

Dorothy Rowe reported of Packer:


Oz

Notes

[1] The Age, Kerry Francis Bullmore Packer 1937-2005: Obituary (online), 28 December 2005. Available at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/12/27/1135445572500.html?page=fullpage (Accessed 1 January 2016).

Bibliography

Rowe, D 2009. What Should I Believe? Why Our Beliefs about the Nature of Death and the Purpose of Life Dominate Our Lives. London and New York: Routledge.

Wait a minuter Oz, are you contradicting yourself here? In another thread you held the position that spiritual matters can be understood with a logical reasoning mind, and illumination by the Holy Spirit. Now no?


I believe you Brother Kevin. I don't believe them all, but yours has a ring of truth to it.

 

[KevinK]

Why wouldn't hell be real? Scripture says it is. I've heard and watched many testimonials of NDE. Of course some are fake. Others are real.



Wait a minuter Oz, are you contradicting yourself here? In another thread you held the position that spiritual matters can be understood with a logical reasoning mind, and illumination by the Holy Spirit. Now no?


I believe you Brother Kevin. I don't believe them all, but yours has a ring of truth to it.

Thank you, Edward, my friend. No, even I don't think I have it all right. But I'm doing my best to interpret it, welcome other interpretations, and am doing it all for you guys anyway (or anyone who would listen).

 

[Edward]

Thank you, Edward, my friend. No, even I don't think I have it all right. But I'm doing my best to interpret it, welcome other interpretations, and am doing it all for you guys anyway (or anyone who would listen).

But you got the gist of it, as will others. That's that hell is real.

 

[turnorburn]

Its real because Jesus says it is real.. i posted my testimony about seeing it several years ago..

 

[Jim Parker]

i posted my testimony about seeing it several years ago..

I would be interested in seeing it.
Would you re-post it?
Since it is a report of what you saw, there is no reason to question your experience.

iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

It wasn't anything like this...

http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/billwiese_23minutesinhell_text.htm

There were two technicians from the cable company at my home one day when i had a vision of a lake a lake that extended from the front of the house and as far as the eye could see north of the house. It was pure blackness.. you could say the blackness of darkness as described in Jude 1:13 The living room was glowing and a light wind was blowing through the room.. it lasted for about a minute, then it all vanished. Its enough to say its a place where you wouldn't want to go.

I've heard of others having visions its not unusual..

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[OzSpen]

Why wouldn't hell be real? Scripture says it is. I've heard and watched many testimonials of NDE. Of course some are fake. Others are real.

Wait a minuter Oz, are you contradicting yourself here? In another thread you held the position that spiritual matters can be understood with a logical reasoning mind, and illumination by the Holy Spirit. Now no?


I believe you Brother Kevin. I don't believe them all, but yours has a ring of truth to it.

How do you know which NDE are real and true? If there is no objective basis for determining such, it is nothing more than a personal, existential event. As I've given the illustration above of Australia's Kerry Packer and his 6-8 min NDE, his view was one of blasphemy in what he concluded about the afterlife. Why should his experience be less real than Kevin's or anybody else's experience? Kerry Packer now knows that permanent death is different from his blankety blank interpretation of his NDE.

Nowhere have I ever stated that hell is not real. I've provided links to a few brief articles that I've written that affirm the reality of hell from Scripture. In case you doubt me, These verses confirm the existence of hell (Matt 5:22 ESV; Matt 10:28 ESV; 2 Pet 2:4 ESV).

You have distorted what I said. In the other thread we were discussing logic and the meaning of Scripture and I wrote of the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Nothing I've said here contradicts this. Seems as though you want to trick me and I'm not falling for that one.

Oz