What Jesus described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:22-26 (ESV) was told before the cross and resurrection. So it deals with what happened at death under the Old Covenant.
Oz
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Hell is a PLACE
- Thread starter KevinK
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What Jesus described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:22-26 (ESV) was told before the cross and resurrection. So it deals with what happened at death under the Old Covenant.
Oz
KevinK
Member
This is a very common criticism of the Biblical description of Hell. We discussed it a bit in another thread just recently. My personal answer was "I don't know". I don't know how the flames in Hell could be dark, so I simply accept the notion that they are. They're are in fact examples of dark fires in nature already. But my real answer is that how God wants Hell to operate. The technical reason just doesn't matter.
JohnDB
Member
As I have said before.What's interesting is that evangelist Bill Weiss (who had a much broader experience in Hell) makes the exact same observations, about God withdrawing His attributes. I'm not sure if that qualifies as lacking omnipresence or not, but I truly don't think it's a critical point, and may even be just semantics. We both felt the same thing in Hell, and that was the absence- in some sense- of God. Maybe just His attributes were missing, fine. Maybe it's not something you can grasp intellectually. You have to feel it, and then you understand. Only in most cases, once you feel it, it's already too late. Which brings us to why I posted this thread in the first place. To try and save souls, even just one. I would hate to think that someone went to Hell because a simple message was lost in an off-topic debate.
(Btw, aren't we supposed to avoid verbiage such as "you are mistaken" in A&T? Seems awfully close to "You're wrong". )
- Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
I have no particular side. This is the Apologetic and Theology forum...where we debate and ask you to apologetically and theologically prove what you are asserting using logic, reason, scriptures, and sources.
That you have had a vision of something akin to what people believe Hell to be like is not in question. But if you would like to give a testimony based upon that vision there is another forum for that. Since you have been a member here for two years I'm sure you know how to get to that forum.
If you hadn't Noticed I'm giving Butch just as difficult time as you but the opposite side of the argument... making him prove his every assertion as well.
This is where iron sharpens iron. No malice, no anger, just prove reasonably what you have asserted. Your title is "Hell is a place", and I am making you prove that.
I know that you also are claiming that you have been there and had discussion with residents. We'll get to that claim soon...
Currently you have insufficiently advanced your claim in light of God's omnipresence, Sovereignty, omnipotence and omniscience. Because if you were there, and had conversations, how can God find you to bring you back out if He isn't there, doesn't know what is going on, and isn't in complete control for His lack of being there. Your life is not at God's acquiesce, it's at God's ongoing support. So how can a person go to the place of eternal punishment/death, and darkness and yet come back? God couldn't do it because according to you He isn't there, isn't in control, and has exerted no power there.
So far your claim is conflicting itself. I mean to have it clarified. The color blue doesn't have a flavor which is similar to what you have asserted at this point.
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KevinK
Member
I appreciate your balanced and counter-pointed approach to the issue. As a scientist I can appreciate and indeed often insist on it.
However, I must clarify one thing. I have "insufficiently advanced claim in light of God's omnipresence" because I have no intention on doing so. I don't consider it inherent to the main subject of the thread and will not respond to it any further. That was always your initiative and at this point it is distracting enough to be considered a "straw man" fallacy and a hijack of the thread. Start a new thread if you feel so compelled, but I will no longer even attempt to respond to it. It's my thread, and I think I have a right to decide what's on- and off-topic.
If a single person loses their salvation due to a thread hijack, God will know and hold it to the appropriate person's account. It is not worth it.
However, I must clarify one thing. I have "insufficiently advanced claim in light of God's omnipresence" because I have no intention on doing so. I don't consider it inherent to the main subject of the thread and will not respond to it any further. That was always your initiative and at this point it is distracting enough to be considered a "straw man" fallacy and a hijack of the thread. Start a new thread if you feel so compelled, but I will no longer even attempt to respond to it. It's my thread, and I think I have a right to decide what's on- and off-topic.
If a single person loses their salvation due to a thread hijack, God will know and hold it to the appropriate person's account. It is not worth it.
KevinK
Member
OK, but realize here too that I have no intention on proving any kind of claim. I will describe my experience to anyone who cares to listen, but I have no desire to prove it in any way. Believe it if you like, don't believe it if you don't. I don't really care either way. This story is only an introduction to a far more important message.
selihah
Member
In Tanach when someone says something I have an obligation to search scripture to see if what they say is true. For me that scripture is Torah it is the only book I find God quoted and it is my understanding of the word sheol and how its used in biblical context is that its nothing more than a hole in the ground where the the living place a body when it dies.
I do not doubt for an instant you had a dream, vision, experience whatever. But there is absolutely nothing to indicate it has anything to do with what is written in the bible. Sheol is a hole in the ground. The story and idea of Gehinom originated in Rabbinc literature, Hell and Hades from the Greeks and with those comes there idea of it. Even the term 'ha satan' was hijacked by the Greeks.
I do not doubt for an instant you had a dream, vision, experience whatever. But there is absolutely nothing to indicate it has anything to do with what is written in the bible. Sheol is a hole in the ground. The story and idea of Gehinom originated in Rabbinc literature, Hell and Hades from the Greeks and with those comes there idea of it. Even the term 'ha satan' was hijacked by the Greeks.
Kevin,
Could it be that the following information provides a better interpretation?
I consider that hell/Hades/Gehenna are real and this will be a conscious, frightful place. But I can’t conclude about its exact nature for these reasons:
I accept that the biblical writers used metaphorical and not literal language. My main reasons for such a view are:
Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell’s description cannot be literal.
Let’s use Jude as an example. He described the after-life as ‘eternal fire’ (Jude 1:7) but that is contrasted with ‘utter darkness’ (Jude 1:13). For the angels, Jude writes of ‘gloomy darkness’ (Jude 1:6). Again, literal fire and literal darkness would be contradictory – from my human perspective.
This issue is made knotty by the ‘lake of fire’ (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8. This hardly conforms with the ‘blackest darkness’.
John the Baptist and Jesus also describe hell as ‘fire’ (Matt 3:10; 25:41) but also as ‘darkness’ (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).
Also Matt 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. They are spirit beings. How is it possible for fire to work on non-physical beings?Therefore, I accept a metaphorical understanding of hell/Hades/Gehenna. It does involve conscious suffering/torment (cf Luke 16:23-24) , but its nature is unknown to me because of the language used. Evidence from outside the NT also supports this perspective.
See fire and darkness appearing together in Jewish writings such as Qumran (1QS 2:8; 4:13), 1 Enoch 103:7; 2 Enoch 10:2-3; Jerusalem Talmud, Shekalim 6:1, 49d. These writings also speak of the bodies of the wicked that are rotting with worms and maggots (Judith 16:17; Sirach (Ben Sira) 7:17, cf Isa 66:24). It was ‘hot as fire and cold as ice’ replacing eternal torment in 2 Enoch 14:20(12).
This is taken from my article, Is there literal fire in hell?
Oz
I have a question.
Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
I can understand how Jesus and the thief on the cross got into Abraham's bosom (they died in faith). I can even understand how Jesus preached to those dead saints in Abraham's bosom, but how did you make it into the rich man's area (inner or outer area ?)?
I try and examine spirits. I would think an evil roaring lion could approach me or a wolf in sheep's clothing. I would even hear the Revelation 3:20 knock. I have to discern which spirit seeks what. Eve was unable to discern, but the Holy Spirit has come since that time.
Just give a little of how you try the spirits to see if they be of God.
I tend to speak of the New Jerusalem and human body symbolism (and that makes me strange). I continually seek to see if those thoughts are so in scripture.
eddif
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50
I believe hell will be a place of darkness, and fire.
Jesus described this seemingly "mutually exclusive" phenomenon this way...
...If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Matthew 6:23b
Let me ask you this question; If you were put in a vat of acid in a darkened room with no light, would you still burn to death?
JLB
selihah
Member
Pharoh had dreamed a dream, it too had nothing to do with what was written in the bible, yet it meant something and it was meant for Pharoh. Before you take it upon yourself to tell people about your dream and how they need change their life 'or else'. Consider this, the rationalist theologian Maimonides and the esoteric kabalist Nahmanides both agree and tell us that God's relationship to an individual is based almost totally on how an individual relates to God. The more a person allows God to be felt in life, the more God will indeed be in that persons life.
It was YOUR dream, it was you who seemed to away from God. So maybe it was meant for you, maybe you need look into your own circumstance and get that fixed first.
It was YOUR dream, it was you who seemed to away from God. So maybe it was meant for you, maybe you need look into your own circumstance and get that fixed first.
KevinK
Member
And how do you know I haven't already?
Pope John Paul II is being tortured in flames in Hell right now as we speak. His main sin was telling people that Hell is not a physical place when he fully knew that it is. Do you really expect me to remain silent about that?
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Not with a literal fire!
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50
People will literally be burning in hell, which would certainly cause the gnashing of teeth
Your answer makes no sense.
Can you honestly answer the question, with a simple Yes or No?
Let me ask you this question; If you were put in a vat of acid in a darkened room with no light, would you still burn to death?
My answer would be yes. If a person were to be put into a vat of acid, in a dark room, then yes their flesh would still burn, even though their is no light in the room.
I believe hell will be a place of darkness, and fire.
Jesus described this seemingly "mutually exclusive" phenomenon this way...
...If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Matthew 6:23b
JLB
LovethroughDove
Member
LovethroughDove
Member
This is currently happening, cause in the end time the beast and the false prophet are thrown in there also.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
chessman
Member
This is an example of a partial quotation of a verse made within one discussion/context changing the true meaning of the verse if inserted into another context.
If one simply goes and reads the actual context of the discussion from which the portion is ripped out:
Matthew 6:22-23 (LEB) “The eye is the lamp of the body. Therefore if your eye is sincere, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be dark. Therefore if the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
The point Jesus was making (is making) is that "light" is sincerity and darkness is evil. This has nothing to do with whether fire (compustion of fuel) produces light or not.
“
Just to clarify.
Do you believe people who are cast into the fires of hell, are also in a place of darkness, in separation from God?
JLB
LovethroughDove
Member
Luke 16:27-28 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
I think you may have been looking at a different scripture? I didn't see where he had a specific audience here.