Hell is a PLACE

[LovethroughDove]

Just to clarify.

Do you believe people who are cast into the fires of hell, are also in a place of darkness, in separation from God?



JLB

Yes, why?

Edit: that is why the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to cool his tongue with water.

 

[JLB]

This is an example of a partial quotation of a verse made within one discussion/context changing the true meaning of the verse if inserted into another context.

This verse was quoted to show us that things in the spirit realm may be different than the things we experience in the natural realm.

The example of someone burning in acid, while in a dark places was used to illustrate the point, that a person can indeed be burned, while being in darkness.

as my post says -

I believe hell will be a place of darkness, and fire.

Jesus described this seemingly "mutually exclusive" phenomenon this way...

...If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Matthew 6:23b

I plainly stated that the verse reference was "b", meaning only a partial verse, and was not stitched together with another verse, as this stands alone.

It also written out, so that all can see what the verse states, and all can n see the point that the light in you can be darkness.

...If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Matthew 6:23b




JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, why?

Edit: that is why the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to cool his tongue with water.

So do I.


Thanks.


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

I appreciate your balanced and counter-pointed approach to the issue. As a scientist I can appreciate and indeed often insist on it.

However, I must clarify one thing. I have "insufficiently advanced claim in light of God's omnipresence" because I have no intention on doing so. I don't consider it inherent to the main subject of the thread and will not respond to it any further. That was always your initiative and at this point it is distracting enough to be considered a "straw man" fallacy and a hijack of the thread. Start a new thread if you feel so compelled, but I will no longer even attempt to respond to it. It's my thread, and I think I have a right to decide what's on- and off-topic.

If a single person loses their salvation due to a thread hijack, God will know and hold it to the appropriate person's account. It is not worth it.

OK...
As a fan of the sciences you should be more than familiar with the massive difference between correlation and causation.
Currently you have stated a causation without providing any correlation.
An equivalent is stating: "God is going to destroy the Nation of China in South America.".
When many of us disagree with the premise that China is in South America...and the premise of God destroying anything being an idiom of speech being ignored because of its widespread use.

I think you should understand my point here quite clearly.

Again,. This is the A&T forum where we are here to guard against heresies. We prove everything unless it is prima facia.
A small error in theology is what created the golden calf...

For many these days that prove hell's existence it is a place of relationship and not geography. Which would more accurately describe what you had a vision of instead of the location. Even Paul when discussing his discussion with Jesus and Heaven did not claim that he knew exactly where he was...he said he didn't know where he was...and I believe Paul. He has written scriptures and provided very logical (but sarcastic) description of events as he knew them.

At the end of the day I'm positive you wouldn't want to be responsible for an unwitting heresy while discussing your vision...that would be unchonchinable....

 

[LovethroughDove]

For many these days that prove hell's existence it is a place of relationship and not geography.

JohnDB - It can be both, if both is what it is.

Ephesians 4:9 What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions?

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[chessman]

The example of someone burning in acid, while in a dark places was used to illustrate the point,

Someone 'burning' in acid is NOT the same chemical reaction as someone combusting/burning in fire. Which is why it's properly called a chemical burn not just a burn.

This verse was quoted to show us that things in the spirit realm may be different than the things we experience in the natural realm.

Okay, but Jesus said it to show that the physical eyes are a filter to our bodies. Very much a different usage than yours. That's my point. Plus the point that you often do the very same thing you accuse us of doing.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB - It can be both, if both is what it is.

Ephesians 4:9 What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions?

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

As I have said before, but likely you missed it, I am not really taking a side in the debate but asking each side to validate their claims...(and I was trying to lend Kevin and hand with his experience.)


But when I get to lunch maybe I got an answer for you... maybe more questions.

Depends on what is for lunch.

 

[Jim Parker]

You have some kind of spiritual body in Hell, and it is put through the ringer.

You have an immortal and incorruptible body according to Paul. (1 Cor 15:53)
I really don't care if it is a place or not. The place is not the ringer; the experience is the ringer.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB - It can be both, if both is what it is.

Ephesians 4:9 What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions?

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

OK...
Quickly because I spent most of lunch in the Mod's forum reading.

The Ephesians passages Paul wrote in response to a Gnostic heresy invading the church. It was something along the lines of since Jesus(being God) didn't really come to Earth in physicality and only spiritually in one man then so long as our spiritual identity doesn't change we can do anything we please to our physical bodies. (IE use the services of a prostitute, steal, cheat and etc) and it won't effect our salvation. IOW so long as we believe we are the good guys we are.
Paul was declaring that line of logic as bunk using scriptures.

Then the Matthew passage may well be a pre-Revelations insight into the "Lake of Fire". This doesn't mean that it is....but it would agree with that from the evidence currently presented.

Which all leads to the premise that a believer in Christ cannot go to Hell as if there is one spark there my soul sings with joy at God's power, his light, his eternity, and Majesty.
"If I make my bed in Sheol thou art there".

 

[Butch5]

Luke 16:27-28 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

I think you may have been looking at a different scripture? I didn't see where he had a specific audience here.

It is this one.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Lk. 16:14-31 KJV)
This parable is actually towards the end of a long discussion that beings in Chapter 14. Notice before going into the parable Jesus said to the Pharisees that the Law and the Prophets were until John. What He has told them is that their reign is over. The Law and the Prophets ended with John the Baptist. That means that the priesthood has ended. Then Jesus say, 'whoever puts away his wife and marries another commit adultery.' This is the very thing they were guilty of. They would divorce their wives for 'any cause' and marry another. If you look at the book of Malachi you will find God charging the priesthood with this very thing. Malachi is the last book of the OT and predicts this right before speaking of the coming of the Lord.

13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
(Mal. 2:13-16 KJV)

After hitting them with those two He launches into the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. If you look carefully at the details of the parable it's pretty clear that it's about the priesthood. Notice the fact that the rich man is a Jew. He has five brothers. Levi, the tribe from which the priesthood came, had five brothers. Notice the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen, this is what the priests wore in Jesus day. Notice that the rich man is in Hades and not Gehenna. Jesus told the apostles that the wicked would burn in Gehenna. Nowhere did He say the wicked would burn in Hades. So, why is the rich man in Hades in the flame? The priests would make this connection immediately. When the Jews were about to go into the land Moses taught them a song. It's the song of Moses and it speaks of how Israel would turn away from God. The priests would be very familiar with it. In the song of Moses we find. Jeshurun is Israel

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. (Deut. 32:15-28 KJV)

We can see this applies to the time of Jesus because He talks of moving them to jealousy by another nation. Paul quotes this. But notice that God said that a fire would be kindled in His anger and would burn to the lowest hell. The word translated hell is the word Hades. That is where the rich man is said to be. The fire burning in Hades is God's anger. If you search the Greek text for a verse where Hades and fire appear together Deut 32:22 is the only one that appears. Other than this verse nowhere in the Bible do we find fire in Hades. And in this verse it's clear that it's speaking of God' anger and not a literal fire.

 

[Butch5]

According to OT commentators Keil & Delitzsch, ‘Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death’ (n d:338).

One of the leading exegetical Greek word studies edited by Colin Brown states: ‘In the LXX [Septuagint] hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb sheol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is a land of darkness, in which God is not remembered (Job 10:21f; 26:5; Ps. 6:5; 30:9 [LXX 29:9]; 115:17 [LXX 113:25]; Prov. 1:12; 27:20; Isa. 5:14)’ (Brown 1976:206).

So in the LXX, hades is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, sheol.

Works consulted

Brown, C (ed) 1976. The new international dictionary of New Testament theology, vol 2. Exeter: The Paternoster Press.

Keil, C F & Delitzsch, F n d. Tr by J Martin (from the German). Commentary on the Old Testament: The Pentateuch, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Well, thanks for their opinions, but I'll stick with the Scriptures.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Which all leads to the premise that a believer in Christ cannot go to Hell as if there is one spark there my soul sings with joy at God's power, his light, his eternity, and Majesty.
"If I make my bed in Sheol thou art there".

I knew you were being neutral. It's all good. Kevin mentioned Bill Weiss and he is also a believer that was given an Out of Body experience in hell. Someone mentioned Paul taken up to heaven bodily or out of body he didn't know. I don't think scripture goes against believers being shown a glimpse of hell (for clearly warning purposes).

 

[LovethroughDove]

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Lk. 16:14-31 KJV)
This parable is actually towards the end of a long discussion that beings in Chapter 14. Notice before going into the parable Jesus said to the Pharisees that the Law and the Prophets were until John. What He has told them is that their reign is over. The Law and the Prophets ended with John the Baptist. That means that the priesthood has ended. Then Jesus say, 'whoever puts away his wife and marries another commit adultery.' This is the very thing they were guilty of. They would divorce their wives for 'any cause' and marry another. If you look at the book of Malachi you will find God charging the priesthood with this very thing. Malachi is the last book of the OT and predicts this right before speaking of the coming of the Lord.

It is to anyone who doesn't believe. And it says right there in (28) place of torment

I get what you are saying about the priesthood, but it is directed to those leaders who weren't going to believe in Jesus raising from the dead.....but it is a paradox statement (not believing Jesus raising from the dead or if a person saw hell and got raised from the dead and told them about it) Wouldn't believe it anyways.

 

[Butch5]

And how do you know I haven't already?

Pope John Paul II is being tortured in flames in Hell right now as we speak. His main sin was telling people that Hell is not a physical place when he fully knew that it is. Do you really expect me to remain silent about that?

Kevin, I have question based on what you've said here. How are people suffering in torment before the judgement?

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

It is to anyone who doesn't believe. And it says right there in (28) place of torment

I get what you are saying about the priesthood, but it is directed to those leaders who weren't going to believe in Jesus raising from the dead.....but it is a paradox statement (not believing Jesus raising from the dead or if a person saw hell and got raised from the dead and told them about it) Wouldn't believe it anyways.

The point I'm making is that in the parable Jesus isn't telling us what happens to people when they die. He's telling the priesthood that they are finished. The priesthood is dead (metaphor).

God also predicted that the priesthood would speak out of Hades. Isaiah 28 speaks of Judgment against Israel at the time of Christ. Isaiah says,

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. (Isa. 28:14-19 KJV)

Hell in the above passages is sheol in the Hebrew and Hades in the Greek. Isaiah goes on to say

KJV Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust. (Isa. 29:1-4 KJV)

Here we see the priesthood said to be speaking out of the ground or the dust. Hades is the grave the rich man was in Hades speaking out of the ground.

 

[JohnDB]

Well, thanks for their opinions, but I'll stick with the Scriptures.

Not that OzSpen really needs me to defend him but what he is saying is commonly known to be true...that the Jewish understanding of Sheol is almost the equivalent of the Greek/Persian understanding of Hades. That this is the place/residence/abode for the dead. How it exactly functioned was as different as the religions. The Greeks/Romans believed that there was a river that ran through the underworld and gave it the name Styx...The Jews believed that Sheol was divided into two sections that one had rest and the other was constant frustration and toil while producing nothing. If a Jewish person was said to be "resting with his fathers" it was a good thing...which later came to be contested theology by Daniel (of all people) who when he gave his prophesy of his vision it spoke of him rising and receiving a reward for his faithful service. (Daniel 12)

Which then began some syncretic theologies mixed in with Zoroastrianism from the Persian Empire. They had a dualistic religion of light and dark sides. (mortals were considered prize pawns in this cosmic struggle) There the concept of Heaven being a marvelous place of untold riches and reward was already a concept. Jesus did nothing to dispel this concept (nor did Paul or John) and even took it further detailing some of the rewards that a person would experience there. Also that entrance began at physical death was a new concept that had not been assured of yet. (it had yet to be spelled out and revealed by any) But when we see Elijah and Moses talking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration...well the cat is out of the bag then.

This is all from anthropological studies of these time periods which are not exactly biblical but do have biblical references to the anthropological states of societies. This is just some history of the understanding of what has been thought. And as I have already discussed earlier in this reply it may not be accurate. The Jews had to radically change their understanding of what happens to the dead with Daniel's prophesy...and I am seeking to change mine. All I need is a miracle...all I need is Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

Not that OzSpen really needs me to defend him but what he is saying is commonly known to be true...that the Jewish understanding of Sheol is almost the equivalent of the Greek/Persian understanding of Hades. That this is the place/residence/abode for the dead. How it exactly functioned was as different as the religions. The Greeks/Romans believed that there was a river that ran through the underworld and gave it the name Styx...The Jews believed that Sheol was divided into two sections that one had rest and the other was constant frustration and toil while producing nothing. If a Jewish person was said to be "resting with his fathers" it was a good thing...which later came to be contested theology by Daniel (of all people) who when he gave his prophesy of his vision it spoke of him rising and receiving a reward for his faithful service. (Daniel 12)

Which then began some syncretic theologies mixed in with Zoroastrianism from the Persian Empire. They had a dualistic religion of light and dark sides. (mortals were considered prize pawns in this cosmic struggle) There the concept of Heaven being a marvelous place of untold riches and reward was already a concept. Jesus did nothing to dispel this concept (nor did Paul or John) and even took it further detailing some of the rewards that a person would experience there. Also that entrance began at physical death was a new concept that had not been assured of yet. (it had yet to be spelled out and revealed by any) But when we see Elijah and Moses talking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration...well the cat is out of the bag then.

This is all from anthropological studies of these time periods which are not exactly biblical but do have biblical references to the anthropological states of societies. This is just some history of the understanding of what has been thought. And as I have already discussed earlier in this reply it may not be accurate. The Jews had to radically change their understanding of what happens to the dead with Daniel's prophesy...and I am seeking to change mine. All I need is a miracle...all I need is Jesus.

That's interesting, but I don't think it accords with Scripture. According to David the thoughts of the dead perish the day they die and According to Paul if there is no resurrection then those who died in Christ have perished.

 

[selihah]

Not that OzSpen really needs me to defend him but what he is saying is commonly known to be true...that the Jewish understanding of Sheol is almost the equivalent of the Greek/Persian understanding of Hades. That this is the place/residence/abode for the dead. How it exactly functioned was as different as the religions. The Greeks/Romans believed that there was a river that ran through the underworld and gave it the name Styx...The Jews believed that Sheol was divided into two sections that one had rest and the other was constant frustration and toil while producing nothing. If a Jewish person was said to be "resting with his fathers" it was a good thing...which later came to be contested theology by Daniel (of all people) who when he gave his prophesy of his vision it spoke of him rising and receiving a reward for his faithful service. (Daniel 12)

Which then began some syncretic theologies mixed in with Zoroastrianism from the Persian Empire. They had a dualistic religion of light and dark sides. (mortals were considered prize pawns in this cosmic struggle) There the concept of Heaven being a marvelous place of untold riches and reward was already a concept. Jesus did nothing to dispel this concept (nor did Paul or John) and even took it further detailing some of the rewards that a person would experience there. Also that entrance began at physical death was a new concept that had not been assured of yet. (it had yet to be spelled out and revealed by any) But when we see Elijah and Moses talking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration...well the cat is out of the bag then.

This is all from anthropological studies of these time periods which are not exactly biblical but do have biblical references to the anthropological states of societies. This is just some history of the understanding of what has been thought. And as I have already discussed earlier in this reply it may not be accurate. The Jews had to radically change their understanding of what happens to the dead with Daniel's prophesy...and I am seeking to change mine. All I need is a miracle...all I need is Jesus.

Umm not all Jews, keep in mind just like other religions there are differents sects with different beliefs. My understanding of some of the beliefs out there regarding sheol is that its closer to the catholic belief of purgatory. However the Jewish idea has originated from traditional beliefs and from the musings of the sages found in talmud not the Torah.

Personally, I do not believe in a place of torment or purging as an option. My foundational belief is in the Biblical definition of Sheol whoch is, well, a hole the ground where a dead body is placed. Very little is mentioned in Tanach about an afterlife. However I find it interesting that one of the core experiences some those who have died and been resuscitated is that they remembered seeing deceased family members gather around them. Which interesting because that is exactely what was described to have happened to the patriarchs when they died.

 

[JohnDB]

selihah
Butch5
As I said in my post....
The Jewish beliefs have changed over time. (And yes, some sects believed different things especially Sadducees...for good reason)
Christian beliefs haven't changed much at all. Especially concerning Heaven.

Beliefs concerning Hell have been all over the place though.
And today they still are all over from geographical location to just relational. Some have eternal torment and others say that "eternal torment" is hyperbole.

It's a definite"maybe/perhaps" as to what happens to the unsaved...but whatever it is it won't be pleasant...for however long it lasts.

My destination is Heaven...I can't go to Hell as God doesn't make false promises.

I don't fear Hell as it isn't my destination nor am I motivated to Heaven by a fear of the alternative. I don't know of anyone who is or would be. People just aren't wired that way for long term behavior modification.

But all this makes for a great discussion.

 

[selihah]

yes, it is good discussion. seek the truth where ever it may be found. . But its good to expand your knowledge.

Hell, hades, gehinnom, purgatory, sheol all fun to discuss ideas about them and their origins. But honestly what I fear is YHVH my God not that other stuff.

peace