Hell is a PLACE

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JohnDB said:
Then if what you are saying is true then God cannot be omnipresent and this attribute must be removed from Him.
And if God is not omnipresent then God's Sovereignty is not complete nor omniscience nor omnipotence. The very nature of God becomes undone...

So... I'm not sold on your explanation.

There's a textbook, fairly old by today's standards named "Knowledge of The Holy" by A.W. Tozier which discusses the attributes of God. Pretty much accepted by most denominations. (Great logical explanations)
It's not expensive in the least.

But in it such things as omnipotence is discussed. Omnipotence is that all power is God's and is on loan to "whatever". God's Sovereignty keeps all power in check. God himself is perfectly efficient when He uses any power or else there are spillover effects and unintended consequences...and Sovereignty is non-existant once again.

God never loses power because it's an endless supply created by God to begin with. So that being said, your next breath isn't at God's acquiesce, it's at His active support. Not one spark from one campfire can exist without God's active support and encouragement. That's omnipotence. That's just one aspect this line of logic you have used removes from God. I can't accept that.
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The modern idea of hell, a place where the ghosts of the dead go is not a Biblical concept. It was a popular among the Greek during NT times and seems to have continued to this day. The Bible is clear that the dead, are dead. The problem with English is that the KJV translated, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, as hell and it's confused a lot of people. Hades is the grave, Gehenna is the place where the wicked will be burned, also known as the Lake of Fire in Revelation. And Tartartus is a pit reserved for wicked angels. There is no place in the center of the earth for ghosts.
 
And if I'm remembering correctly this is the standard nihilism discussion.

Only the bold and foolish consider entering into such a discussion. I'll let yawl figure out which of the two I am all by yourselves... LOL .
 
JohnDB said:
And if I'm remembering correctly this is the standard nihilism discussion.

Only the bold and foolish consider entering into such a discussion. I'll let yawl figure out which of the two I am all by yourselves... LOL .
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Actually, there really shouldn't be any debate. The Scriptures are so clear on this subject that there isn't really any room fro debate. The problem is that too many simply refuse to let go of long held traditions. When one is willing to let go of tradition and accept what the Scriptures say the issue settles itself. Genesis 2 and 3 settle the issue. Moses recorded the creation of man. God formed the man from the dust of the earth. That's what man is, the elements of the earth. Then God breath His breath of life into the man and the man was transformed into a living soul. God told Adam, 'dust you are and to dust you shall return'. In Ecc. 3 and 12 we find that when a man dies, the breath of life that God breathed into man returns to God and man returns to the dust. Both of his components are accounted for there is nothing left. The man is dead until the resurrection.
 
This idea of eternal torment is dangerous to unbelievers as it leads many of them to judge God. This doctrine has turned quite a few away from Christianity. Now, if it was a Biblical doctrine then it would be what it is. However, It's not and as such does damage to the Faith of Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does God say, if you sin I will burn you for eternity in hell. God, the prophets, and the Apostles all agree, the wages of sin is death.
 
KevinK said:
How the wheel turns. The earliest readings of scripture made no bones about it, Hell was a physical place of torment and suffering. Later, more "progressive" interpretations explained Hell as solely a state of the soul in eternal separation from God the Father. A recent Pope even issued a statement confirming this explanation. There are still some who argue this position.

The separation from God is surely the worst of the torments, but this does not negate the physical suffering. The original interpretation is correct after all; Hell is both a place of suffering and a state of spiritual misery. You have some kind of spiritual body in Hell, and it is put through the ringer.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."​

I know this not only from my reading of Matthew 10:28, but because I have been there. In my 30s I had an out-of-body experience (called a "vision" in the OT) and physically visited that awful place. I didn't see much of it, but I was there and I saw enough. I even know where it is (center of the earth). Argue with me if you wish, but I was there.
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Where did the term 'hell' come from? As I stated in another topic, in the book I read there is a place for the body when it dies and its called 'sheol'. And according to my understanding when the Greeks translated sheol they used the word 'hell' and with that word hell came the Greek definition of it. In Tanach there is only sheol, hell and its deffinition comes from the Greeks.
 
Butch5

Matthew 13: 40-42
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 8:12
Matthew 5:29-30
Matthew 5:22
Luke 16:24
All these scriptures suggest that He'll is a blazing inferno.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth and the worm nor fire dies is a direct ALLUSION to the fire pit of Gehenna.

Revelation 14:10-11
Revelation 19:3
Revelation 19:20
These also suggest burning eternally.

And if Satan is to go there....and the "there" isn't there...where does Satan go?

Satan can't go to Heaven.
Can he?
 
JohnDB said:
Butch5

Matthew 13: 40-42
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 8:12
Matthew 5:29-30
Matthew 5:22
Luke 16:24
All these scriptures suggest that He'll is a blazing inferno.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth and the worm nor fire dies is a direct ALLUSION to the fire pit of Gehenna.

Revelation 14:10-11
Revelation 19:3
Revelation 19:20
These also suggest burning eternally.

And if Satan is to go there....and the "there" isn't there...where does Satan go?

Satan can't go to Heaven.
Can he?
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Yes ha satan can go before God in heaven. At least in my understanding of the use of the words 'ha satan'. You see the word satan is of hebrew origin and simply means adversary.

There are human adversaries King David was called satan by the Philistines, Rezon amd Hamon were called satan. There are angelic adversaries too but it must be noted that the angelic kind are never adversarily towards God. Quite the contrary they are most obedient and never waver. They are sent by YHVH to do his will. When you think about it obedience is equated as righteousness. Even the right hand of God was called satan.

In Tanach there is no other godlike being let alone one called Satan battling for the kingdom of heaven or the souls of men. There is only YHVH, who from time to sends an angelic satan to test man or He raises up human satans against other men.

I fear once again the Greeks have added their ideas to a hebrew word.
 
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JohnDB said:
Butch5

Matthew 13: 40-42
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 8:12
Matthew 5:29-30
Matthew 5:22
Luke 16:24
All these scriptures suggest that He'll is a blazing inferno.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth and the worm nor fire dies is a direct ALLUSION to the fire pit of Gehenna.

Revelation 14:10-11
Revelation 19:3
Revelation 19:20
These also suggest burning eternally.

And if Satan is to go there....and the "there" isn't there...where does Satan go?

Satan can't go to Heaven.
Can he?
Click to expand...

The wicked will be cast into fire. However, that doesn't mean they'll burn forever. Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is actually about the destruction of the priesthood, not the state of the dead.

Rev 14 is speaking about people who are alive.
Rev 19:3 The smoke rising is actually an illusion to Isaiah. However, the phrase "forever and ever" isn't translated correctly. It's also an superlative. Revelation also says that Babylon was destroyed in one hour.
Rev 19:20 is the Lake of Fire, which is Gehenna.
 
Butch5 said:
Yeah we do. It's Gehenna
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"Gehenna" is the name we use to refer to the final LOF, borrowing the term from the burning refuse site in the Valley of Hinnom. As far as we know, no location has been given for the actual lake of fire that is the final Hell, unless you think it is physically southeast of Jerusalem.
 
Butch5 said:
The wicked will be cast into fire. However, that doesn't mean they'll burn forever. Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is actually about the destruction of the priesthood, not the state of the dead.

Rev 14 is speaking about people who are alive.
Rev 19:3 The smoke rising is actually an illusion to Isaiah. However, the phrase "forever and ever" isn't translated correctly. It's also an superlative. Revelation also says that Babylon was destroyed in one hour.
Rev 19:20 is the Lake of Fire, which is Gehenna.
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Forever and ever doesn't mean eternally?
Such as Revelation 14:11?

So also...
What happens to Satan?
Doesn't he get eternally punished?
After all the stuff that he made me do too...
 
Butch5 said:
This idea of eternal torment is dangerous to unbelievers as it leads many of them to judge God. This doctrine has turned quite a few away from Christianity. Now, if it was a Biblical doctrine then it would be what it is. However, It's not and as such does damage to the Faith of Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does God say, if you sin I will burn you for eternity in hell. God, the prophets, and the Apostles all agree, the wages of sin is death.
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I have some question about this issue. The Bible says the damned will end up in the Lake of Fire, but I'm not 100% sure that they'll suffer for eternity. They'll burn for eternity, but will they feel it?
 
KevinK said:
"Gehenna" is the name we use to refer to the final LOF, borrowing the term from the burning refuse site in the Valley of Hinnom. As far as we know, no location has been given for the actual lake of fire that is the final Hell, unless you think it is physically southeast of Jerusalem.
Click to expand...

It is! Isaiah speaks of it in chapter 66 and Jesus quotes this as the place where the wicked will be destroyed. There is no mention of any Lake of Fire until the book of Revelation. it seems obvious to me that if Jesus said the wicked would burn in Gehenna and John said they'd burn in the Lake of Fire the two must be one and the same.
 
Butch5 said:
It is! Isaiah speaks of it in chapter 66 and Jesus quotes this as the place where the wicked will be destroyed. There is no mention of any Lake of Fire until the book of Revelation. it seems obvious to me that if Jesus said the wicked would burn in Gehenna and John said they'd burn in the Lake of Fire the two must be one and the same.
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I see. Well, interesting to say the least. I'm not sure I agree, but can't categorically disagree either. I guess we'll see on this one.
 
KevinK said:
I see. Well, interesting to say the least. I'm not sure I agree, but can't categorically disagree either. I guess we'll see on this one.
Click to expand...

Well since we believe in Jesus.... probably not. Well definitely not.
 
JohnDB said:
Then if what you are saying is true then God cannot be omnipresent and this attribute must be removed from Him.
And if God is not omnipresent then God's Sovereignty is not complete nor omniscience nor omnipotence. The very nature of God becomes undone...

So... I'm not sold on your explanation.

There's a textbook, fairly old by today's standards named "Knowledge of The Holy" by A.W. Tozier which discusses the attributes of God. Pretty much accepted by most denominations. (Great logical explanations)
It's not expensive in the least.

But in it such things as omnipotence is discussed. Omnipotence is that all power is God's and is on loan to "whatever". God's Sovereignty keeps all power in check. God himself is perfectly efficient when He uses any power or else there are spillover effects and unintended consequences...and Sovereignty is non-existant once again.

God never loses power because it's an endless supply created by God to begin with. So that being said, your next breath isn't at God's acquiesce, it's at His active support. Not one spark from one campfire can exist without God's active support and encouragement. That's omnipotence. That's just one aspect this line of logic you have used removes from God. I can't accept that.
Click to expand...
That's fine. It's a difficult concept, maybe one that defies logical explanation. God is omnipotent in Hell, but not omnipresent? He has control over a place where He isn't present? Well, He's God, He can do anything. This is almost like the rock so big He can't lift debate. I do think it's more of a side issue compared to whether Hell is a place, so I think we can just leave it where it is for the time being. Or start a different thread.
 
KevinK said:
I have some question about this issue. The Bible says the damned will end up in the Lake of Fire, but I'm not 100% sure that they'll suffer for eternity. They'll burn for eternity, but will they feel it?
Click to expand...
The wages of sin is death. Isaiah 66 tells us that it is corpses that are burning not living people.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa. 66:24-1:1 KJV)

However, that isn't eternal. According to Jeremiah Gehenna will one day be made holy to the Lord.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:39-40 KJV)
 
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