Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

[guibox]

Simply put Guibox:

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist

Your text merely is a factual statement of authority of God over all.

I sense the 'God has put Himself in us, therefore we cannot be 'destroyed' for God would be destroying Himself' argument.

You are left with no way out of this reasoning except to claim universalism. For to say that God will not annihilate part of Himself doesn't make any more sense then to say that God will allow part of Himself to be tormented for all eternity.

Such an argument is illogical.

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement....I see that seventh day adventists now hold to the same doctrines as the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Universalists, Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrong), and other cults.

Solo,

What do you mean 'now hold to the same doctrines'? We've had these doctrines since the 1850s before there were any JWs or WWCG.

Thank you for clearing that up. I will stay with the believers that broke away from the false doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and upheld their belief in the inerrant Word of God from which all truth prevails.

:roll: Are you really listening to yourself? It is the Catholic Church that believes in eternal torment and fabricated the doctrine. How are these groups that believe the exact OPPOSITE part of the 'false doctrine of the Catholic Church'??

You are completely contradicting yourself Solo. I think you are way over your head in this argument, Solo. So far you have added nothing but empty words and pious language condemning others for 'annihiliating' arguments that you can't even defend.

I'm still waiting to hear your response from my post that you conveniently ignored. On how what I have said is not 'twisting Christ's words' when that is what you are accusing annihilationists of.

As Drew said, quit hiding behind your elitist rhetoric and address the argument.

We are waiting...

 

[Soma-Sight]

Are you really listening to yourself? It is the Catholic Church that believes in eternal torment and fabricated the doctrine. How are these groups that believe the exact OPPOSITE part of the 'false doctrine of the Catholic Church'??

Exactly!

The RCC is the one that formulated the doctrine of eternal torment in the first place!

 

[Solo]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.

This is what I love about Christians, they will attribute horrific evil to God, and call it his, "righteous judgement".

:-D

You can choose God's rest or the devil's end. God has given you a choice. Your eternity depends on your choice. Walk in the hiway or obey and stay out of it.

 

[mutzrein]

Solo

My last post was in response to some questions you asked of me. Am I to take it that you have included me with those you perceive to be cultists or annihiliationists?

Regards

 

[FineLinen]

The truth is that the evil that have died will be ressurected to face their everlasting punishment which Jesus calls their damnation.

Solo: Is the everlasting punishment which the Lord Jesus Christ calls their damnation, the same damnation that begins at the house of God?

My brothers, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater damnation.

 

[stovebolts]

Simply put Guibox:

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist

Your text merely is a factual statement of authority of God over all.

I sense the 'God has put Himself in us, therefore we cannot be 'destroyed' for God would be destroying Himself' argument.

You are left with no way out of this reasoning except to claim universalism. For to say that God will not annihilate part of Himself doesn't make any more sense then to say that God will allow part of Himself to be tormented for all eternity.

Such an argument is illogical.

Your senses are off brother GuiBox and thus, your reasoning is off.

However, based on your own supposition, is God longsuffering? Does he not dwell within our very being? Proverbs 20:27 tells us that our spirit, is God's candle. In Revelation 22:5, for some, there will be no need for a candle for as you should know, the bride and groom become one.

I believe that some will find God's rest, while other simply won't, and that is a tormenting thought... As Adam was forced to till the ground, he did not die after eating the fruit, he simply lost the rest that was given.

 

[Solo]

The truth is that the evil that have died will be ressurected to face their everlasting punishment which Jesus calls their damnation.

Solo: Is the everlasting punishment which the Lord Jesus Christ calls their damnation, the same damnation that begins at the house of God?

My brothers, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater damnation.

It is their judgement. The judgement of the lost is eternal punishment, the judgement of the saved is eternal life.

 

[FineLinen]

The truth is that the evil that have died will be ressurected to face their everlasting punishment which Jesus calls their damnation.

I asked you....

Solo: Is the everlasting punishment which the Lord Jesus Christ calls their damnation, the same damnation that begins at the house of God?

My brothers, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater damnation.

Solo replied...

It is their judgement. The judgement of the lost is eternal punishment, the judgement of the saved is eternal life.

So, the damnation that begins at the house of God is not eternal damnation? And, the greater damnation of the brethren is not eternal damnation, but eternal life.

Greater Damnation = Greater eternal life.

I am beginning to grasp your thinking?

 

[FineLinen]

I have the Holy Spirit to assist with my understanding and wisdom concerning the Word of God.

Good for you Solo! Perhaps the Holy Spirit will assist you in understanding...

oti [o] kairoV tou arxasqai to krima apo tou oikou tou qeou: ei de prwton af hmwn, ti to teloV twn apeiqountwn tw tou qeou euaggeliw;

iakwboV qeou kai kuriou ihsou cristou douloV taiV dwdeka fulaiV taiV en th diaspora cairein.

gnwrisaV hmin to musthrion tou qelhmatoV autou, kata thn eudokian autou hn proeqeto en autw eiV oikonomian tou plhrwmatoV twn kairwn, anakefalaiwsasqai ta panta en tw cristw, ta epi toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV: en autw

 

[Solo]

I have the Holy Spirit to assist with my understanding and wisdom concerning the Word of God.

Good for you Solo! Perhaps the Holy Spirit will assist you in understanding...

oti [o] kairoV tou arxasqai to krima apo tou oikou tou qeou: ei de prwton af hmwn, ti to teloV twn apeiqountwn tw tou qeou euaggeliw;

[quote:b4663]iakwboV qeou kai kuriou ihsou cristou douloV taiV dwdeka fulaiV taiV en th diaspora cairein.

gnwrisaV hmin to musthrion tou qelhmatoV autou, kata thn eudokian autou hn proeqeto en autw eiV oikonomian tou plhrwmatoV twn kairwn, anakefalaiwsasqai ta panta en tw cristw, ta epi toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV: en autw

[/quote:b4663]
Your post is all Greek to me.

 

[DivineNames]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.

This is what I love about Christians, they will attribute horrific evil to God, and call it his, "righteous judgement".

:-D

You can choose God's rest or the devil's end. God has given you a choice. Your eternity depends on your choice. Walk in the hiway or obey and stay out of it.

I wonder what path you are on Solo... because it seems to me you have a devil for a God.

 

[DivineNames]

An objection to the notion of everlasting torment from Clark Pinnock-

Finally, from a metaphysical point of view, everlasting torment gives the clear picture of an unending cosmological dualism. Heaven and hell just go on existing alongside each other forever. But how can this be if God is to be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28) and if God is making "all things new" (Rev. 21:5)? It just does not add up right. Stott asks: "How can God in any meaningful sense be called 'everything to everybody' while an unspecified number of people still continue in rebellion against him and under his judgment?" It would make better sense metaphysically (as well as biblically, morally, and justicewise) if hell meant destruction and the wicked were no more. Otherwise the disloyal opposition would eternally exist alongside God in a corner of unredeemed reality in the new creation.

Clark H. Pinnock, The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent
http://www.abc-coggc.org/_old_web/COGGC ... 02-1-2.htm

How do traditionalists answer this point?

 

[Solo]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.

This is what I love about Christians, they will attribute horrific evil to God, and call it his, "righteous judgement".

:-D

You can choose God's rest or the devil's end. God has given you a choice. Your eternity depends on your choice. Walk in the hiway or obey and stay out of it.

I wonder what path you are on Solo... because it seems to me you have a devil for a God.

I know your opinion on theological matters, but there is always hope that you will find the truth before you die.

 

[DivineNames]

I know your opinion on theological matters, but there is always hope that you will find the truth before you die.

There is always hope that you will turn away from your irrationality and evil beliefs.

 

[Solo]

I know your opinion on theological matters, but there is always hope that you will find the truth before you die.

There is always hope that you will turn away from your irrationality and evil beliefs.

Your unbelief and attacks on Christianity show who you worship as god, and your inability to see the truth of God's Word will lead you straight to hell if you do not repent. This is a warning of love, pardner, so get it straight or you will regret your rebellious nature.

 

[DivineNames]

Your unbelief and attacks on Christianity show who you worship as god, and your inability to see the truth of God's Word will lead you straight to hell if you do not repent. This is a warning of love, pardner, so get it straight or you will regret your rebellious nature.

It is always possible for you to change, to turn away from your evil beliefs. I am warning you, in love, that if you cling to evil beliefs there will likely be a consequence to that. Think about the path that you are on.

 

[Solo]

Your unbelief and attacks on Christianity show who you worship as god, and your inability to see the truth of God's Word will lead you straight to hell if you do not repent. This is a warning of love, pardner, so get it straight or you will regret your rebellious nature.

It is always possible for you to change, to turn away from your evil beliefs. I am warning you, in love, that if you cling to evil beliefs there will likely be a consequence to that. Think about the path that you are on.

May you submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, instead of the god of this world. May Jesus Christ rebuke you.

 

[DivineNames]

May you submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, instead of the god of this world. May Jesus Christ rebuke you.

I pray that you turn away from your irrationality, and I pray that you turn away from the kind of Deity who roasts unbelievers in the fires of hell. Turn towards goodness Solo! I know that you can do it!

I will pray for you.

 

[Solo]

May you submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, instead of the god of this world. May Jesus Christ rebuke you.

I pray that you turn away from your irrationality, and I pray that you turn away from the kind of Deity who roasts unbelievers in the fires of hell. Turn towards goodness Solo! I know that you can do it!

I will pray for you.

If you want your prayers to be heard, you will have to repent from your darkness and turn to the one true light, Jesus Christ. Until then you fool yourself.

 

[Solo]

I have the Holy Spirit to assist with my understanding and wisdom concerning the Word of God.

Good for you Solo! Perhaps the Holy Spirit will assist you in understanding...

oti [o] kairoV tou arxasqai to krima apo tou oikou tou qeou: ei de prwton af hmwn, ti to teloV twn apeiqountwn tw tou qeou euaggeliw;

[quote:66051]iakwboV qeou kai kuriou ihsou cristou douloV taiV dwdeka fulaiV taiV en th diaspora cairein.

gnwrisaV hmin to musthrion tou qelhmatoV autou, kata thn eudokian autou hn proeqeto en autw eiV oikonomian tou plhrwmatoV twn kairwn, anakefalaiwsasqai ta panta en tw cristw, ta epi toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV: en autw

[/quote:66051]

12. ακουσας δε ο ιησους οτι ιωαννης παρεδοθη ανεχωρησεν εις την γαλιλαιαν
13. και καταλιπων την {VAR1: ναζαρετ } {VAR2: ναζαρεθ } ελθων κατωκησεν εις καπερναουμ την παραθαλασσιαν εν οριοις ζαβουλων και νεφθαλειμ
14. ινα πληρωθη το ρηθεν δια ησαιου του προφητου λεγοντος
15. γη ζαβουλων και γη νεφθαλειμ οδον θαλασσης περαν του ιορδανου γαλιλαια των εθνων
16. ο λαος ο καθημενος εν σκοτει ειδε φως μεγα και τοις καθημενοις εν χωρα και σκια θανατου φως ανετειλεν αυτοις
17. απο τοτε ηρξατο ο ιησους κηρυσσειν και λεγειν μετανοειτε ηγγικεν γαρ η βασιλεια των ουρανων
18. περιπατων δε ο ιησους παρα την θαλασσαν της γαλιλαιας ειδεν δυο αδελφους σιμωνα τον λεγομενον πετρον και ανδρεαν τον αδελφον αυτου βαλλοντας αμφιβληστρον εις την θαλασσαν ησαν γαρ αλιεις
19. και λεγει αυτοις δευτε οπισω μου και ποιησω υμας αλιεις ανθρωπων
1 Peter 4:12-19


1. ιακωβος θεου και κυριου ιησου χριστου δουλος ταις δωδεκα φυλαις ταις εν τη διασπορα χαιρειν
2. πασαν χαραν ηγησασθε αδελφοι μου οταν πειρασμοις περιπεσητε ποικιλοις
3. γινωσκοντες οτι το δοκιμιον υμων της πιστεως κατεργαζεται υπομονην
4. η δε υπομονη εργον τελειον εχετω ινα ητε τελειοι και ολοκληροι εν μηδενι λειπομενοι
5. ει δε τις υμων λειπεται σοφιας αιτειτω παρα του διδοντος θεου πασιν απλως και μη ονειδιζοντος και δοθησεται αυτω
6. αιτειτω δε εν πιστει μηδεν διακρινομενος ο γαρ διακρινομενος εοικεν κλυδωνι θαλασσης ανεμιζομενω και ριπιζομενω
7. μη γαρ οιεσθω ο ανθρωπος εκεινος οτι ληψεται τι παρα του κυριου
8. ανηρ διψυχος ακαταστατος εν πασαις ταις οδοις αυτου
9. καυχασθω δε ο αδελφος ο ταπεινος εν τω υψει αυτου
10. ο δε πλουσιος εν τη ταπεινωσει αυτου οτι ως ανθος χορτου παρελευσεται
11. ανετειλεν γαρ ο ηλιος συν τω καυσωνι και εξηρανεν τον χορτον και το ανθος αυτου εξεπεσεν και η ευπρεπεια του προσωπου αυτου απωλετο ουτως και ο πλουσιος εν ταις πορειαις αυτου μαρανθησεται
12. μακαριος ανηρ ος υπομενει πειρασμον οτι δοκιμος γενομενος ληψεται τον στεφανον της ζωης ον επηγγειλατο ο κυριος τοις αγαπωσιν αυτον
13. μηδεις πειραζομενος λεγετω οτι απο του θεου πειραζομαι ο γαρ θεος απειραστος εστιν κακων πειραζει δε αυτος ουδενα
14. εκαστος δε πειραζεται υπο της ιδιας επιθυμιας εξελκομενος και δελεαζομενος
15. ειτα η επιθυμια συλλαβουσα τικτει αμαρτιαν η δε αμαρτια αποτελεσθεισα αποκυει θανατον
16. μη πλανασθε αδελφοι μου αγαπητοι
17. πασα δοσις αγαθη και παν δωρημα τελειον ανωθεν εστιν καταβαινον απο του πατρος των φωτων παρ ω ουκ ενι παραλλαγη η τροπης αποσκιασμα
18. βουληθεις απεκυησεν ημας λογω αληθειας εις το ειναι ημας απαρχην τινα των αυτου κτισματων
19. ωστε αδελφοι μου αγαπητοι εστω πας ανθρωπος ταχυς εις το ακουσαι βραδυς εις το λαλησαι βραδυς εις οργην
20. οργη γαρ ανδρος δικαιοσυνην θεου ου κατεργαζεται
21. διο αποθεμενοι πασαν ρυπαριαν και περισσειαν κακιας εν πραυτητι δεξασθε τον εμφυτον λογον τον δυναμενον σωσαι τας ψυχας υμων
22. γινεσθε δε ποιηται λογου και μη μονον ακροαται παραλογιζομενοι εαυτους
23. οτι ει τις ακροατης λογου εστιν και ου ποιητης ουτος εοικεν ανδρι κατανοουντι το προσωπον της γενεσεως αυτου εν εσοπτρω
24. κατενοησεν γαρ εαυτον και απεληλυθεν και ευθεως επελαθετο οποιος ην
25. ο δε παρακυψας εις νομον τελειον τον της ελευθεριας και παραμεινας ουτος ουκ ακροατης επιλησμονης γενομενος αλλα ποιητης εργου ουτος μακαριος εν τη ποιησει αυτου εσται
26. ει τις δοκει θρησκος ειναι εν υμιν μη χαλιναγωγων γλωσσαν αυτου αλλ απατων καρδιαν αυτου τουτου ματαιος η θρησκεια
27. θρησκεια καθαρα και αμιαντος παρα τω θεω και πατρι αυτη εστιν επισκεπτεσθαι ορφανους και χηρας εν τη θλιψει αυτων ασπιλον εαυτον τηρειν απο του κοσμου
James 1:1-27

1. παυλος αποστολος ιησου χριστου δια θεληματος θεου τοις αγιοις τοις ουσιν εν εφεσω και πιστοις εν χριστω ιησου
2. χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου
3. ευλογητος ο θεος και πατηρ του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου ο ευλογησας ημας εν παση ευλογια πνευματικη εν τοις επουρανιοις {VAR2: εν } χριστω
4. καθως εξελεξατο ημας εν αυτω προ καταβολης κοσμου ειναι ημας αγιους και αμωμους κατενωπιον αυτου εν αγαπη
5. προορισας ημας εις υιοθεσιαν δια ιησου χριστου εις αυτον κατα την ευδοκιαν του θεληματος αυτου
6. εις επαινον δοξης της χαριτος αυτου εν η εχαριτωσεν ημας εν τω ηγαπημενω
7. εν ω εχομεν την απολυτρωσιν δια του αιματος αυτου την αφεσιν των παραπτωματων κατα τον πλουτον της χαριτος αυτου
8. ης επερισσευσεν εις ημας εν παση σοφια και φρονησει
9. γνωρισας ημιν το μυστηριον του θεληματος αυτου κατα την ευδοκιαν αυτου ην προεθετο εν αυτω
10. εις οικονομιαν του πληρωματος των καιρων ανακεφαλαιωσασθαι τα παντα εν τω χριστω τα τε εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης
11. εν αυτω εν ω και εκληρωθημεν προορισθεντες κατα προθεσιν του τα παντα ενεργουντος κατα την βουλην του θεληματος αυτου
12. εις το ειναι ημας εις επαινον της δοξης αυτου τους προηλπικοτας εν τω χριστω
13. εν ω και υμεις ακουσαντες τον λογον της αληθειας το ευαγγελιον της σωτηριας υμων εν ω και πιστευσαντες εσφραγισθητε τω πνευματι της επαγγελιας τω αγιω
14. ος εστιν αρραβων της κληρονομιας ημων εις απολυτρωσιν της περιποιησεως εις επαινον της δοξης αυτου
15. δια τουτο καγω ακουσας την καθ υμας πιστιν εν τω κυριω ιησου και την αγαπην την εις παντας τους αγιους
16. ου παυομαι ευχαριστων υπερ υμων μνειαν υμων ποιουμενος επι των προσευχων μου
17. ινα ο θεος του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου ο πατηρ της δοξης δωη υμιν πνευμα σοφιας και αποκαλυψεως εν επιγνωσει αυτου
18. πεφωτισμενους τους οφθαλμους της διανοιας υμων εις το ειδεναι υμας τις εστιν η ελπις της κλησεως αυτου και τις ο πλουτος της δοξης της κληρονομιας αυτου εν τοις αγιοις
19. και τι το υπερβαλλον μεγεθος της δυναμεως αυτου εις ημας τους πιστευοντας κατα την ενεργειαν του κρατους της ισχυος αυτου
20. ην ενηργησεν εν τω χριστω εγειρας αυτον εκ νεκρων και εκαθισεν εν δεξια αυτου εν τοις επουρανιοις
21. υπερανω πασης αρχης και εξουσιας και δυναμεως και κυριοτητος και παντος ονοματος ονομαζομενου ου μονον εν τω αιωνι τουτω αλλα και εν τω μελλοντι
22. και παντα υπεταξεν υπο τους ποδας αυτου και αυτον εδωκεν κεφαλην υπερ παντα τη εκκλησια
23. ητις εστιν το σωμα αυτου το πληρωμα του παντα εν πασιν πληρουμενου
Ephesians 1:1-23