Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

[Solo]

However, this "sequence of events" is just speculation on my part.

Thank you for admitting that your views on this matter is just speculation, otherwise I would have asked you where the Word of God shows that the wicked that are resurrected are still mortal. I believe that the doctrine of annihilation is a unbiblical doctrine based more on human emotions and wishes as opposed to God's word. The cults such as Millerites, Jehovah Witness, Universalism, Mormons, etc. all adhere to the same views concerning hell and annihilation. I don't believe that I would choose to be in alliance with these over the Word of God.

Two points. First, I never said that my view about immortality of the unredeemed was speculation. I said that my view about the "sequence of events" was speculation. I think that powerful arguments have been made in this and other threads for the position that the unredeemed are not immortal.

Second, the rest of your post begs the question at issue and seems to try to score points by playing the "cult" card and using the clearly question-begging implication that "the word of God supports the eternal torment position". What is your actual case? You supplied the Matthew 25:46 text, I and others have responded. What is wrong with our reasoning? If you can provide us with text that unambigiously (or even strongly) suggests immortality of the wicked, I am all ears.

The thing that is interesting about the annihilation argument is that it twists the words of Jesus into meaning that which is different to the meaning of his words. Yours and others position relating to annihilation is only the tip of the iceberg in doctrines that differentiate from the gospel given to us by Jesus Christ. You will not agree so you will just have to wait and see. Have a great evening.

BTW Have we ever agreed on anything? Just curious.

 

[mutzrein]

It looks like Jesus disagrees with you, in that there is a resurrection of those that are evil, as well as a resurrection of those that are good. Those that are evil will be judged to be damned for eternity, and according to Jesus in
Matthew 25 they will be in everlasting punishment and everlasting fire.


Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:25-30

When Jesus comes in his glory, all believers will unite with him in the air and the wrath of God will be poured out on the unbelieving. That is Jesus' teaching in Matthew 25.

Jesus said, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:31-46

I understand your position Solo

For you to accept that I have the mind of Christ (the opposite of Jesus disagreeing with me - as you put it) would be tantamount to you saying that it is possible to lose your salvation. And on that premise you cannot for a moment even consider that your argument in this respect is wrong.

Well that’s OK, as I have said in another thread I have no desire to dissuade you from that knowledge. I too know that in being born of the Spirit I cannot lose eternal life – but I make a differentiation between that and OSAS.

And the two passages of scripture you have used in no wise deny that the unrighteous (those who have been given eternal life – and turn back to their own righteousness) are the unrighteous that are judged.

Scripture differentiates between those you see as the unrighteous and those who will perish (without judgement). Now of course because of a person’s OSAS premise it is impossible to interpret these scriptures any other way than it relating to the unrighteous sinner that is not born again. And therefore to them they read these passages of scripture to mean that those perishing will be judged without even thinking (or perhaps wanting to think) that there may be another possibility. Lets face it. It’s a hard thing for anyone to admit they are wrong especially when they believe and preach it so vehemently.

Now I have covered the issue of the sheep and the goats in another post as you know. And since what I have said seems of no significance to you beyond just quoting the passage again, without giving any more comment as to any how it can be otherwise interpreted, again I will not pursue the issue with you – unless you wish to. Under the circumstances I see no point for me explaining the other passages if the only response is just having the scriptures repeated.

I will say this though as a general comment. They speak of those who have been given the talents. They are the ones who knew the bridegroom was coming. These are the wheat and the tares growing together. They are the fish gathered in the net. They are the sheep and the goats. They are the workers in the vineyard.

Now their relationship to the master, the king, the landowner etc was sealed. They were not as those that were not given talents, or were not sheep or goats, or were not gathered. They were ‘chosen’ but ultimately found not fit for the kingdom.
And that is also what it means when it says, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.†None of us dare say that we could not be tripped up by the wiles of Satan and ensnared in our own self-righteousness which ultimately lead us then to go on and declare this one is going to heaven and that one is going to hell.

None of us dare judge. All authority has been given to Jesus and He alone will judge the hearts of men as the scripture says.

Regards

 

[mutzrein]

And a point perhaps for those who have mentioned or who have asked a question about the 'immortal soul' of man.

The soul is not immortal. It is of the flesh - and flesh gives birth to flesh.

The spirit is immortal. The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And this is the theme of scripture. The first Adam, the Last Adam. The man of the flesh, the man of the Spirit.

Regards

 

[Solo]

And a point perhaps for those who have mentioned or who have asked a question about the 'immortal soul' of man.

The soul is not immortal. It is of the flesh - and flesh gives birth to flesh.

The spirit is immortal. The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And this is the theme of scripture. The first Adam, the Last Adam. The man of the flesh, the man of the Spirit.

Regards

What happens to the mortal at the resurrection? Does the mortal put on immortality? Gnostics tend to favor the Spiritual without addressing the positive of the resurrected flesh. You don't fit into that camp do you?

Did Jesus ascend into heaven in the spirit or in bodily form?

 

[mutzrein]

And a point perhaps for those who have mentioned or who have asked a question about the 'immortal soul' of man.

The soul is not immortal. It is of the flesh - and flesh gives birth to flesh.

The spirit is immortal. The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And this is the theme of scripture. The first Adam, the Last Adam. The man of the flesh, the man of the Spirit.

Regards

What happens to the mortal at the resurrection? Does the mortal put on immortality? Gnostics tend to favor the Spiritual without addressing the positive of the resurrected flesh. You don't fit into that camp do you?

Did Jesus ascend into heaven in the spirit or in bodily form?

What happens to the mortal at the resurrection? Does the mortal put on immortality?
If you can answer these questions I will answer yours.
What does flesh and blood inherit? What cannot the perishable inherit?

Gnostics tend to favor the Spiritual without addressing the positive of the resurrected flesh. You don't fit into that camp do you?
Gnostic? What is a Gnostic? I don’t think so since I don’t know what a Gnostic is.

Did Jesus ascend into heaven in the spirit or in bodily form?
Plainly he ascended in bodily form to the point that he was taken into a cloud and from that point on he was hidden from their sight. But in saying he was in bodily form he was raised with an incorruptible spiritual body.

As it says in scripture: "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die"

 

[guibox]

The thing that is interesting about the annihilation argument is that it twists the words of Jesus into meaning that which is different to the meaning of his words. Yours and others position relating to annihilation is only the tip of the iceberg in doctrines that differentiate from the gospel given to us by Jesus Christ

The problem, Solo, is that you seem to think you have the monopoly of truth on what the Lord is saying. We let the bible interpret itself and we see that the words of both Christ and Paul are fully explained in the rest of scripture. I would rather rely on the bible for explanation then man's wisdom which seems to 'know' the mind of Christ because they read the King's English in the KJV.

We're 'twisting words'?

How about making 'unquenchable fire' mean 'unendless burning in torment' when the bible makes it clear in Jeremiah 17:29 that unquenchable means the fire cannot be 'put out', not that it won't GO out?

Is that not 'twisting words'?

How about making 'smoke ascendeth up forever and ever' and 'have no rest day or night' to mean 'eternal torment in unending fire' when the bible makes it clear in Isaiah 34:10 and 1 Samuel 1:20,28 that such terms are figurative and temporal and denote 'continuity' and not 'duration'?

Is that not 'twisting words'?

How about making 'worm dieth not', mean 'unending torment in fire' (which in of itself is such a ridiculous conclusion) when Isaiah 66 makes it plain that such language denotes complete destruction of corpses and not 'eternal torment of souls'?

Is this not 'twisting words'?


How about making terms like 'burnt up' 'devour' and 'consume' mean 'unending torment in a fiery hell' when Exodus 3:2 and Psalms 37:20 makes it plain that to be consumed is to be completely burnt up and not continually burning?

Is this not 'twisting words'?

How about taking terms like 'destroy' 'death' 'destruction' and 'perishing' to mean 'unending conscious torment in a fiery hell' when the bible makes it plain that these words are taken literally when talking about the ultimate fate of the wicked?

Is this not 'twisting words'?

No, my friend. Just because you say we are twisting words, that doesn't make it so. Instead you are saying such things due to your preconceived mindset that you think Christ supports eternal torment.

I'd rather let the Bible explain it then man's preconceived notions read into the texts.

Solo, let this Catholic midieval theology go and embrace the loving truth of the gospel of Christ and why He came to this earth to save mankind.

When you do and search the scriptures you will not find the heartless, cruel, anti-Love-God persona of our Savior in it like that which comes from eternal torment.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Solo, let this Catholic midieval theology go and embrace the loving truth of the gospel of Christ and why He came to this earth to save mankind.

When you do and search the scriptures you will not find the heartless, cruel, anti-Love-God persona of our Savior in it like that which comes from eternal torment.

You mean to say that you HONESTLY believe that God is NOT a heartless, cruel, and insensitive being and that He would NOT allow his lost treasures to suffer endless physical torment in the fires of hell? Oooo, now that's cult talk if ever I heard it ...straight from the pits of hell. Go wash out your mouth, guibox, and denounce this heresy!

 

[FineLinen]

Solo, let this Catholic midieval theology go and embrace the loving truth of the gospel of Christ and why He came to this earth to save mankind.

When you do and search the scriptures you will not find the heartless, cruel, anti-Love-God persona of our Savior in it like that which comes from eternal torment.

You mean to say that you HONESTLY believe that God is NOT a heartless, cruel, and insensitive being and that He would NOT allow his lost treasures to suffer endless physical torment in the fires of hell? Oooo, now that's cult talk if ever I heard it ...straight from the pits of hell. Go wash out your mouth, guibox, and denounce this heresy!

Shame on you Guibox! :

In most discussions, each person has some point to maintain, and his object is to justify his own thesis and disprove his neighbor's. He may have originally adopted his thesis because of some sign of truth in it, but his mode of supporting it is generally to block up every cranny in his soul at which more truth might enter. -George MacDonald-

 

[Solo]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.

The truth is that the evil that have died will be ressurected to face their everlasting punishment which Jesus calls their damnation. A simple study of the scriptures lays bare the annihilation theory and replaced it with truth. The resurrected evil will face everlasting punishment and everlasting fire.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:28-30

The evil will be resurrected from the dead into the resurrection of damnation. A just and loving God will do just as he says.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46

I see that seventh day adventists now hold to the same doctrines as the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Universalists, Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrong), and other cults. Thank you for clearing that up. I will stay with the believers that broke away from the false doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and upheld their belief in the inerrant Word of God from which all truth prevails.



Mt 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mt 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mr 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mr 12:40
Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Lu 20:47
Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Joh 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Ro 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come ? whose damnation is just.

Ro 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

1Co 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1Ti 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

2Pe 2:3
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

[Drew]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.
.
.
.
.
Mt 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mt 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
.
.
.

Translation: When one's case is weak, resort to rhetoric...

 

[Solo]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.
.
.
.
.
Mt 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mt 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
.
.
.

Translation: When one's case is weak, resort to rhetoric...

I forgive you for your rhetoric.

 

[DivineNames]

And the doctrine of the cults marches onward to deceive those that will embrace God's love and ignore God's righteous judgement.

This is what I love about Christians, they will attribute horrific evil to God, and call it his, "righteous judgement".

:-D

 

[FineLinen]

The Bible is full of references to the ultimate destruction of the enemies of God.

Yes indeed, Guibox! In fact there are over 20 distinct words for destruction in the Old Covenant Hebrew!

There are dual aspects to our Father's judgement and to His destruction.

Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.

Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent and exhausted with to be finished, and made sound.

Tamam, the root word of Tamiym, means to be finished, complete, summed up and made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.

Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.

Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout is the aspect of being crushed and broken. Again: there is dual meaning in our Lord's words of destruction and re-creation.

The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.

In the New Compact we read of those individuals that are "fitted for destruction."

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To put in order.

To arrange.

To adjust.

To strengthen.

To perfect.

 

[DivineNames]

But to abandon counsel of God to believe whatever we think is good is the error of the ages.

Source: -here-

Total nonsense.

If people aren't willing to question what is taken to be the, "word of God", then some of the things done in the name of God will likely be very evil.

 

[Soma-Sight]

FineLinen.....

 

[FineLinen]

Oh it's starting all over again! :o I reneg on my offer to allow another thread discussing Dr. Vincent.

You know darn well UR proponents use his resources to support their claims and call other sources "inferior" and other colorful words as well. It would be too easy to find his studies being used by the likes of L.Ray Smith, etc and in conjunction with the Concordant or Rotherham Bibles.

I was trying to be nice by opening up a line of communication and allowing a thread where this subject could have been discussed. But no... So, cased closed and end of discussion.

Thank you Vic for your kind offer and trying to be nice. :-D The fact remains: neither you nor Solo has one shred of evidence linking Dr. Vincent with the banned false doctrine subject of the 123 forums.

Are you familiar with the Koine scholar, Ralph Earle? He would be the laddy who has taught Greek for nearly 50 years, as well as being a theological professor of the Nazarene Theological Seminary. He writes in the preface of his excellent book Word Meanings In The New Testament regarding the quality of Dr. Marvin Vincent's scholarship, and declares it is "a gold mine of preaching material." The big silly must be in fellowship with Ray Smith and the other moat monsters. :-D

 

[DivineNames]

You focus too much on the punishment of the sins we commit while forgetting the ultimate sin - rejecting the sacrifice of the eternal God himself. That is an eternal sin.

So it is because of Jesus, that there is an opportunity for "eternal sin"?

Are you saying that if Jesus didn't come, no one would deserve to burn in hell for all eternity? That it is Jesus being sacrificed that results in a situation where people burn in hell?

 

[FineLinen]

The truth is that the evil that have died will be ressurected to face their everlasting punishment which Jesus calls their damnation.

Is the everlasting punishment which Jesus the Christ calls their damnation, the same damnation that begins at the house of God?

 

[FineLinen]

You focus too much on the punishment of the sins we commit while forgetting the ultimate sin - rejecting the sacrifice of the eternal God himself. That is an eternal sin.

Search= Eternal Sin

Your search query for eternal sin yielded no results. Please modify your search and try again.

 

[stovebolts]

There are dual aspects to our Father's judgement and to His destruction.

Hello old friend,
Yes, I would have to agree with your statment. Now, would you agree then that some would find God's rest while the others won't (Hebrews 4) while hinging upon one's baptism of the spirit and water?

Guibox,
Nothing from something... is still something :wink:

We all start from "naive realism" i.e., the doctrine that things are what they seem. We think that grass is green, that stones are hard, and that snow is cold. But physics assures us that the greenness of grass, the hardness of stones, and the coldness of snow are not the greenness, hardnes, and coldness that we know in our own experience, but something very different.

The observer, when he seems to himself to be observing a stone, is really, if physics is to be believed, observing the effects of the stone upon himself. Thus, science seems to be at war with itself: when it most means to be objeive, it finds itself plunged into subjectivity against it's will. Naive realism leads to physics, and physics, if true, show that naive realism is false. Therefore, naive realism, if true, is false; therefore, it is false.

Simply put Guibox:

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

For as a vapor, it appears to disapear, but it hasn't, it has simply changed it's state.