Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

[FineLinen]

Um, didn't we cover this just a few moments ago? Eternal = everlasting for both life (reward) and death (punishment).

Eternal= everlasting? If aionios means everlasting or eternal; without beginning and ending as per Dr. James Strong, could you state what then is the meaning of prov aijwvnioß crovnoß?

Prov= _______________?

aijwvnioß= Everlasting/Eternal/Without beginning or ending?

crovnoß= _______________?

The adjective aionios rests upon the noun aion. Can you demonstrate that aion means everlasting or eternal?

Zoe aionios eternal life, occurs 42 times in the New Covenant and is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. - Dr. Marvin Vincent-

 

[guibox]

Jesus said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation". John 5:28-29

Solo, I know you are repeating yourself because you feel you are making a point, but you have to also take into account the rest of the scriptures that make it plain what this 'damnation' and 'everlasting punishment' is.

The bible makes many things clear:

1) Eternal life is only given to the righteous
2) The gift of the righteous is CONTRASTED to the punishment of the wicked
3) The opposite of life is not life...it is death
4) The wages of sin is death. The punishment that Christ came to save us from was death

The fires are merely the means to the ultimate end..suffering the wages of sin which is the opposite of eternal life.

Therefore, within this clear context that permeates throughout the entire scripture, you cannot harp on Matthew 25:46 as the premier theological foundation and you cannot infer a preconceived idea that 'punishment' is 'punishing'.

FineLinen, those of us who know you have heard that phrase of yours before! :wink: Remember the rules on UR

 

[FineLinen]

The Bible is full of references to the ultimate destruction of the enemies of God.

There are over 20 distinct words words for destruction in the Old Covenant? In any of those words, is life and change associated with destruction?

 

[FineLinen]

The Bible is full of references to the ultimate destruction of the enemies of God.

Gulbox, the strongest word for destruction in the New Covenant is olethros, on which apollumi is based. Does life emanate from olethros or apollumi, or is it the "ultimate destruction"?

 

[FineLinen]

Therefore, within this clear context that permeates throughout the entire scripture, you cannot harp on Matthew 25:46 as the premier theological foundation and you cannot infer a preconceived idea that 'punishment' is 'punishing'.

Of course he/she can! There is exactly one passage of Scripture that speaks of aionios kolasis and the context for the kolasis is very, very clear!

FineLinen, those of us who know you have heard that phrase of yours before! :wink: Remember the rules on UR

I appreciate you reminding me of the current rules governing this site! The introduction of the same has saved me enormous amounts of energy, :-D

Assuming that there is such a thing as "ultimate destruction", can you tell us what the Sovereign God is destroying?

From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. Source, Guide and Goal of all that is, to whom be glory forever, Amen!

 

[guibox]

Assuming that there is such a thing as "ultimate destruction", can you tell us what the Sovereign God iA\0\05{\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0ote]From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. Source, Guide and Goal of all that is, to whom be glory forever, Amen!

[/quote]

"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away"

"Fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell"

If all find their life in God, then the possibility of God destroying the wicked in hellfire could not be a possibility for God could not destroy Himself. Of course, URs believe that the 'wicked man' is 'destroyed' (purified) in the fires and a new creature is reborn so many of these texts can be twisted to make it say whatever in the context of URism.

Anyway, quit dragging me into a debate that is headed or understood in the context of URism. Not only are we then comparing apples and oranges, but discussion of URism is forbidden by the mods of this site.

 

[Drew]

The fires are merely the means to the ultimate end..suffering the wages of sin which is the opposite of eternal life.

In defence of the annihilation viewpoint: The specific use of fire as a descriptor for what awaits the unredeemed is suggestive (to me, anyway) of a process of destruction and "consumption". That which is subjected to the action of fire tends to be totally consumed and destroyed. If God wished to communicate a reality of unending torment for the unredeemed, one can speculate that He might have used a metaphor that was not so strongly correlated with destruction.

Perhaps the important being that fire should be viewed for what it is - an agent of destruction. Fire acts on things to bring about their disintegration and ultimate annihilation. Fire can of course inflict pain, but it also brings about destruction.

 

[Solo]

Jesus said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation". John 5:28-29

Solo, I know you are repeating yourself because you feel you are making a point, but you have to also take into account the rest of the scriptures that make it plain what this 'damnation' and 'everlasting punishment' is.

The bible makes many things clear:

1) Eternal life is only given to the righteous
2) The gift of the righteous is CONTRASTED to the punishment of the wicked
3) The opposite of life is not life...it is death
4) The wages of sin is death. The punishment that Christ came to save us from was death

The fires are merely the means to the ultimate end..suffering the wages of sin which is the opposite of eternal life.

Therefore, within this clear context that permeates throughout the entire scripture, you cannot harp on Matthew 25:46 as the premier theological foundation and you cannot infer a preconceived idea that 'punishment' is 'punishing'.

FineLinen, those of us who know you have heard that phrase of yours before! :wink: Remember the rules on UR

If those that have done evil are being resurrected, what makes you think that they are not resurrected immortal to their everlasting punishment and everlasting fire in the lake of fire with satan and his angels just as Jesus teaches?

 

[Vic C.]

Anyway, quit dragging me into a debate that is headed or understood in the context of URism. Not only are we then comparing apples and oranges, but discussion of URism is forbidden by the mods of this site.

Hey now, don't be blaming us... attitudes on all sides caused the "gag order". 8-)

 

[Solo]

Many cults teach in the non-existance of hell, or a finite hell. To what extent will satan go to destroy man? Whatever it takes.

 

[FineLinen]

If all find their life in God, then the possibility of God destroying the wicked in hellfire could not be a possibility for God could not destroy Himself. Of course, URs believe that the 'wicked man' is 'destroyed' (purified) in the fires and a new creature is reborn so many of these texts can be twisted to make it say whatever in the context of URism.

Anyway, quit dragging me into a debate that is headed or understood in the context of URism. Not only are we then comparing apples and oranges, but discussion of URism is forbidden by the mods of this site.

My dear laddy, focus, focus, focus. Only you have mentioned the dreaded banned subject. If there is such a thing as "ultimate destruction", why is it that salvation comes out of olethros? And if apollumi is what Jesus Christ has come to save us from, why does He guarantee His followers apollumi as the road to salvation?

 

[Vic C.]

...Fire can of course inflict pain, but it also brings about destruction.

I used to work in a foundry and was also a tool and die maker. Fire has it's uses in those fields as well. Just adding fuel to the fire. : :

Many cults teach in the non-existance of hell, or a finite hell. To what extent will satan go to destroy man? Whatever it takes.

All it took was this one lie... "And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die:"..."

 

[FineLinen]

Many cults teach in the non-existance of hell, or a finite hell.

Why do you think the Lord Lesous went to hell, if hell is non-existant, Solo?

The following are the entire Old Testament reverences to hell in the Old Covenant: all translated from the same Hebrew word, sh@'owl.

Gen. 37:15

And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Gen. 42:38

And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol.

Gen. 44:29

And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol.

Gen. 44:31

It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the sheol.

Deut. 32:22

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn into the lowest sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

1 Samuel 2:6

The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to sheol, and bringeth up again.

2 Samuel 22:6

The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me.

1 Kings 2:6

Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to sheol in peace.

1 Kings 2:9

Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to sheol with blood.

Job 7:9

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to sheol shall come up no more.

Job 11:8

It is high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than sheol; what canst thou know?

Job 14:13

O that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest keep me in secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 17:13

If I wait, sheol is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 21:13

They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to sheol.

Job 24:19

Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth sheol to those which have sinned.

Job 26:6

Sheol is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Psl. 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in sheol who shall give thee thanks?

Psl. 9:17

The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

Psl. 16:10

For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psl. 18:5

The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me.

Psl. 30:3

Oh Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from sheol: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Psl. 31:17

Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in sheol.

Psl. 49:14

Like sheep they are laid in sheol; death shall feed them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in sheol from their dwelling.

Psl. 49:15

But God will redeem my soul from the power of sheol: for he shall receive me.

Psl. 55:15

Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into sheol; for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Psl. 86:13

For great is thy mercy toward me; and thou has delivered my soul from the lowest sheol.

Psl. 88:3

For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth unto sheol.

Psl. 89:48

What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of sheol? Selah

Psl. 116:3

The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of sheol gat hold of me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psl. 139:8

If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in sheol, behold, thou art there.

Psl. 141:7

Our bones are scattered at sheols mouth, as one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.

Eccl. 9:19

Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol, whither thou goest.

Proverbs 1:12

Let us swallow them up alive as sheol; and whole, as those that go down into the pit.

Proverbs 5:5

Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on sheol.

Proverbs 7:27

Her house is the way to sheol, going down to the chambers of death.

Proverbs 9:18

But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of sheol.

Proverbs 15:11

Sheol and destruction are before the Lord; how much more then, the hearts of men?

Prov. 15:24

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from sheol beneath.

Prov. 23:14

Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from sheol.

Prov. 27:20

Sheol and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Proverbs 30:16

Sheol; and the barren womb; the earth that is filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.

Song Of Solomon 8:6

Set me as a seal upon thy heart; as a seal upon thy arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the sheol: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

Isa. 5:14

Therefore sheol hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa. 14:9

Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up all her thrones, all the kings of the earth.

Isa. 14:11

Thy pomp is brought down to sheol, and the noise of thy vials: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa. 14:15

Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit.

Isa. 28:15

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with sheol are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through it, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves.

Isa. 28:18

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa. 38:10

I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of sheol: for I am deprived of the residue of my years.

Isa. 38:18

For sheol cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa. 57:9

And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself unto sheol.

Ezekiel 31:15

Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to sheol I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed.....

Ezek. 31:16

I made the nations shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to sheol with him that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and the best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Ezek. 31:17

They also went down into sheol with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Ezek. 32:21

The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of sheol with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain with the sword.

Ezek. 32:27

And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to sheol with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Hosea 13:14

I will ransom them from the power of sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O sheol, I will be thy destruction; repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Amos 9:2

Though they dig into sheol, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down.

Habakkuk 2:5

Yea also, because he transgresseth wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as sheol, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth all nations, and heapeth unto him all people.

Jonah 2:2

And said, I cried by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of sheol cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey there FL...

My dear laddy, focus, focus, focus. Only you have mentioned the dreaded banned subject. If there is such a thing as "ultimate destruction", why is it that salvation comes out of olethros? And if apollumi is what Jesus Christ has come to save us from, why does He guarantee His followers apollumi as the road to salvation?

Let's say it with some scripture and cross references to what olethros and apollumi equate to for those of us who may have missed it previously. ;-)

Thanks. 8-)

 

[Solo]

Many cults teach in the non-existance of hell, or a finite hell.

Why do you think the Lord Lesous went to hell, if hell is non-existant, Solo?

Hell exists, and everlasting punishment and everlasting fire will be the place for all the wicked and evil souls including satan and his angels.

I do not believe as do the cults.

 

[FineLinen]

In defence of the annihilation viewpoint: The specific use of fire as a descriptor for what awaits the unredeemed is suggestive (to me, anyway) of a process of destruction and "consumption". That which is subjected to the action of fire tends to be totally consumed and destroyed.....Perhaps the important being that fire should be viewed for what it is - an agent of destruction. Fire acts on things to bring about their disintegration and ultimate annihilation.

Neither Scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can't function as a tank any longer. Even if you were to vaporize the tank completely, yet, it's intrinsic elements would still exist in other forms.

Contrary to conventional theology, all things were not created from nothing, and none of the things that have been created will ever face nonexistence, and by that I mean nonexistence in any form. All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.

So, what we have in the process of purification by fire is, first, a separation of the object of purification from all that defiles it, all that is foreign to it's intrinsic constitution, and then the removal of the corrupting element(s). But, as all analogies and parables fall short, in some way, of fully representing the truth they are meant to convey, so is the case here.

 

[FineLinen]

Solo: I asked you why did the Lord Lesous go to hell?

You replied...

Hell exists, and everlasting punishment and everlasting fire will be the place for all the wicked and evil souls including satan and his angels.

I do not believe as do the cults.

Of course hell exists, Solo. Why did the Lord of the universe go to hell after He was crucified? Can you tell us what are the qualifications for everlasting punishment according to the context of St. Matt. 25?

 

[FineLinen]

Hey there FL...

My dear laddy, focus, focus, focus. Only you have mentioned the dreaded banned subject. If there is such a thing as "ultimate destruction", why is it that salvation comes out of olethros? And if apollumi is what Jesus Christ has come to save us from, why does He guarantee His followers apollumi as the road to salvation?

Let's say it with some scripture and cross references to what olethros and apollumi equate to for those of us who may have missed it previously. ;-)

Thanks. 8-)

How can you miss such important issues, Victoria? :-D

If you save your life you will apollumi it, but if you apollumi your life for My sake and the Gospel you will find it.

 

[Solo]

Solo: I asked you why did the Lord Lesous go to hell?

You replied...

Hell exists, and everlasting punishment and everlasting fire will be the place for all the wicked and evil souls including satan and his angels.

I do not believe as do the cults.

Of course hell exists, Solo. Why did the Lord of the universe go to hell after He was crucified? Can you tell us what are the qualifications for everlasting punishment according to the context of St. Matt. 25?

FineLinen,
I took your question as meaning that I did not believe in hell the way that you worded it:

Why do you think the Lord Lesous went to hell, if hell is non-existant, Solo?

Now I understand your question being, "Why did Jesus go to hell?"

The answer to that question is that I don't know that he did. I know the creeds say that he did, but I haven't studied that enough to give you a credible answer.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Drew]

Many cults teach in the non-existance of hell, or a finite hell. To what extent will satan go to destroy man? Whatever it takes.

The problem with this is that it begs the question and throws in the usual "you are wrong because you are deceived by Satan" non-argument. In past, you have suggested I have a negative bias towards you. Please understand that this is not so. I am indeed interested in why you believe as you do. Implications that we who believe in a finite hell are deceived by Satan are not helpful. Note the important distinction here: I am not saying you are wrong to believe that we are deceived, but the very foundation of a useful discussion entails your telling us why we are wrong, why should we believe that we are deceived if this is indeed the case? I am not making this observation about all your posts - some of them do not beg the question.