Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

[Vic C.]

If you save your life you will apollumi it, but if you apollumi your life for My sake and the Gospel you will find it.

Translation:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

39 The one finding his life shall lose it. And the one losing his life on account of Me shall find it. (LITV)

39`He who found his life shall lose it, and he who lost his life for my sake shall find it. (YLT)

See, that wasn't so hard. :

 

[mutzrein]

Is it hard to accept that those, who by virtue of the fact that they are not born again and therefore have not recieved eternal life, just perish?

 

[Drew]

All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.

I do not think this is correct. Let's say that I agree with you that when something is burned, the constituting elements are not really done away with. Fair enough. However, what makes a tank a tank is not only its constituents, but the specific manner in which they are organized. When any kind of thing is "burned up", whether a tank or a house, or even a human person, "things" are indeed destroyed. Not physical elements, perhaps, but the information about the structure and organization of the original item is lost. The item is much more than its constituting elements.

So when fire burns something, there is indeed annihilation - annihilation of information about structure and organization. Why am I debating this point? Because I think the metaphor of fire as an agent of annihilation is indeed appropriate and its use in the scriptures is suggestive of irreversible loss, not mere transformation.

 

[Solo]

Many cults teach in the non-existance of hell, or a finite hell. To what extent will satan go to destroy man? Whatever it takes.

The problem with this is that it begs the question and throws in the usual "you are wrong because you are deceived by Satan" non-argument. In past, you have suggested I have a negative bias towards you. Please understand that this is not so. I am indeed interested in why you believe as you do. Implications that we who believe in a finite hell are deceived by Satan are not helpful. Note the important distinction here: I am not saying you are wrong to believe that we are deceived, but the very foundation of a useful discussion entails your telling us why we are wrong, why should we believe that we are deceived if this is indeed the case? I am not making this observation about all your posts - some of them do not beg the question.

I do not know what belief you are. I made the statement that many cults do not believe in hell and others a finite hell. Their doctrines make them cultic, and they fall off of the band wagon of Christianity when they teach other doctrines that differ from those taught by Jesus Christ.

Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in Hell. They believe in annihilation. They also do not believe that Jesus is God. The founder of this bunch ran coddled the doctrines of the Millerites.

 

[FineLinen]

Of course hell exists, Solo. Why did the Lord of the universe go to hell after He was crucified? Can you tell us what are the qualifications for everlasting punishment according to the context of St. Matt. 25?

Now I understand your question being, "Why did Jesus go to hell?"

The answer to that question is that I don't know that he did. I know the creeds say that he did, but I haven't studied that enough to give you a credible answer.

He did! "You will not leave My soul in hell, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption."

Have you studied St. Matthew 25? Can you state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

 

[Solo]

Of course hell exists, Solo. Why did the Lord of the universe go to hell after He was crucified? Can you tell us what are the qualifications for everlasting punishment according to the context of St. Matt. 25?

Now I understand your question being, "Why did Jesus go to hell?"

The answer to that question is that I don't know that he did. I know the creeds say that he did, but I haven't studied that enough to give you a credible answer.

He did! "You will not leave My soul in hell, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption."

Have you studied St. Matthew 25? Can you state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

The only way a person enters the kingdom of God is by being born again according to Jesus (John 3). The only way a person can do good works as indicated in Matthew 25 is by having faith to be born again created unto good works as indicated in Ephesians 2 .

 

[FineLinen]

All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.

I do not think this is correct. Let's say that I agree with you that when something is burned, the constituting elements are not really done away with. Fair enough. However, what makes a tank a tank is not only its constituents, but the specific manner in which they are organized. When any kind of thing is "burned up", whether a tank or a house, or even a human person, "things" are indeed destroyed. Not physical elements, perhaps, but the information about the structure and organization of the original item is lost. The item is much more than its constituting elements.

So when fire burns something, there is indeed annihilation - annihilation of information about structure and organization. Why am I debating this point? Because I think the metaphor of fire as an agent of annihilation is indeed appropriate and its use in the scriptures is suggestive of irreversible loss, not mere transformation.

Drew: I also believe in "irreversible loss", in fact the Sacred Words declare the fact! Every man shall be tried by fire/ the ta panta. The net result, depending upon the foundation, or quality of the foundation, can result in irreversible loss. But what is the end result of the "irreversible loss" of wood, hay and stubble?

 

[FineLinen]

Solo: I asked you if you could state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

Your reply....

The only way a person enters the kingdom of God is by being born again according to Jesus (John 3). The only way a person can do good works as indicated in Matthew 25 is by having faith to be born again created unto good works as indicated in Ephesians 2 .

Agreed, except a person be born anew he cannot see, nor can he enter in to the Realm of God. The question is what are the qualifications for aionios kolasis presented by the Salvation of Jehovah, the Lord Lesous within the context of St. Matt. 25? What qualifies a goat? Failure to believe? Failure to be born anew? Rebellion, iniquity, sin? Not "accepting Jesus as personal Saviour? What are the qualifying factors of a goat?

 

[Solo]

Solo: I asked you if you could state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

Your reply....

The only way a person enters the kingdom of God is by being born again according to Jesus (John 3). The only way a person can do good works as indicated in Matthew 25 is by having faith to be born again created unto good works as indicated in Ephesians 2 .

Agreed, except a person be born anew he cannot see, nor can he enter in to the Realm of God. The question is what are the qualifications for aionios kolasis presented by the Salvation of Jehovah, the Lord Lesous within the context of St. Matt. 25? What qualifies a goat? Failure to believe? Failure to be born anew? Rebellion, iniquity, sin? Not "accepting Jesus as personal Saviour? What are the qualifying factors of a goat?

Failure to be born of God, born again is what separates the sheep from the goats. Jesus explains this process in John 3.

 

[FineLinen]

If you save your life you will apollumi it, but if you apollumi your life for My sake and the Gospel you will find it.

Translation:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

39 The one finding his life shall lose it. And the one losing his life on account of Me shall find it. (LITV)

39`He who found his life shall lose it, and he who lost his life for my sake shall find it. (YLT)

See, that wasn't so hard. :

Excellent Vic. Perish, destroy and lose/ loss are all within the meaning of apollumi. Is it not interesting that our Lord calls His followers to loss/destruction/ perishing as the road to soteria? The foundation for apollumi is olethros, and can also be demonstrated to encompass soteria breaking out of destruction!

 

[FineLinen]

Solo: I asked you if you could state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

Your reply....

The only way a person enters the kingdom of God is by being born again according to Jesus (John 3). The only way a person can do good works as indicated in Matthew 25 is by having faith to be born again created unto good works as indicated in Ephesians 2 .

Agreed, except a person be born anew he cannot see, nor can he enter in to the Realm of God. The question is what are the qualifications for aionios kolasis presented by the Salvation of Jehovah, the Lord Lesous within the context of St. Matt. 25? What qualifies a goat? Failure to believe? Failure to be born anew? Rebellion, iniquity, sin? Not "accepting Jesus as personal Saviour? What are the qualifying factors of a goat?

Failure to be born of God, born again is what separates the sheep from the goats. Jesus explains this process in John 3.

Focus, focus Solo! :-D There is exactly one passage of Scripture that speaks of aionios kolaso. That is St. Matt. chapter 25, the favorite passage to prove "everlasting punishment." What are the qualifications?

 

[Solo]

Solo: I asked you if you could state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

Your reply....

The only way a person enters the kingdom of God is by being born again according to Jesus (John 3). The only way a person can do good works as indicated in Matthew 25 is by having faith to be born again created unto good works as indicated in Ephesians 2 .

Agreed, except a person be born anew he cannot see, nor can he enter in to the Realm of God. The question is what are the qualifications for aionios kolasis presented by the Salvation of Jehovah, the Lord Lesous within the context of St. Matt. 25? What qualifies a goat? Failure to believe? Failure to be born anew? Rebellion, iniquity, sin? Not "accepting Jesus as personal Saviour? What are the qualifying factors of a goat?

Failure to be born of God, born again is what separates the sheep from the goats. Jesus explains this process in John 3.

Focus, focus Solo! :-D There is exactly one passage of Scripture that speaks of aionios kolaso. That is St. Matt. chapter 25, the favorite passage to prove "everlasting punishment." What are the qualifications?

And your point is??????

 

[FineLinen]

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

The qualifications for "aionios kolasis" according to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.....

1._____________________________________?

2._____________________________________?

3._____________________________________?

4._____________________________________?

5._____________________________________?

The qualifications for aionios zoe according to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.....

1._____________________________________?

2._____________________________________?

3._____________________________________?

4._____________________________________?

5._____________________________________?

6._____________________________________?

 

[Solo]

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

The qualifications for "aionios kolasis" according to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.....

1._____________________________________?

2._____________________________________?

3._____________________________________?

4._____________________________________?

5._____________________________________?

The qualifications for aionios zoe according to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.....

1._____________________________________?

2._____________________________________?

3._____________________________________?

4._____________________________________?

5._____________________________________?

6._____________________________________?

Can you do these good works (as I stated in an earlier post) and see the Kingdom of God without being born of God, being born again?

 

[FineLinen]

Solo: I asked you if you could state the qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to the context for "everlasting punishment/ aionios kolasis?

Your reply....

The only way a person enters the kingdom of God is by being born again according to Jesus (John 3). The only way a person can do good works as indicated in Matthew 25 is by having faith to be born again created unto good works as indicated in Ephesians 2 .

Agreed, except a person be born anew he cannot see, nor can he enter in to the Realm of God. The question is what are the qualifications for aionios kolasis presented by the Salvation of Jehovah, the Lord Lesous within the context of St. Matt. 25? What qualifies a goat? Failure to believe? Failure to be born anew? Rebellion, iniquity, sin? Not "accepting Jesus as personal Saviour? What are the qualifying factors of a goat?

Failure to be born of God, born again is what separates the sheep from the goats. Jesus explains this process in John 3.

Focus, focus Solo! :-D There is exactly one passage of Scripture that speaks of aionios kolaso. That is St. Matt. chapter 25, the favorite passage to prove "everlasting punishment." What are the qualifications?

And your point is??????

My point? Context, context, context! What is the context for aionios kolasis? Can you state it!

 

[Vic C.]

Why are we trying to define the qualifications of sheep and goats. Neither in their context are "born again" believers anyway. :-? If any were, they wouldn't be part of this (sheep/goat-wheat/tare) judgement anyway.

 

[FineLinen]

Why are we trying to define the qualifications of sheep and goats. Neither in their context are "born again" believers anyway. :-? If any were, they wouldn't be part of this (sheep/goat-wheat/tare) judgement anyway.

Vic: as you know this thread has those who maintain that the Scriptures teach "everlasting punishment". You may not believe this, but I have yet to have any of those who are the loudest proponents of this dogma, willing to post the context for aionios kolasis. Are you following Solo? :D

 

[Solo]

Why are we trying to define the qualifications of sheep and goats. Neither in their context are "born again" believers anyway. :-? If any were, they wouldn't be part of this (sheep/goat-wheat/tare) judgement anyway.

Vic: as you know this thread has those who maintain that the Scriptures teach "everlasting punishment". You may not believe this, but I have yet to have any of those who are the loudest proponents of this dogma, willing to post the context for aionios kolasis. Are you following Solo? :D

I am following you and your Marvin R. Vincent Universalism sales pitch, but I am not in agreement with it. I believe ole Marvin strains his word studies to manufacture false doctrines. What do you think?

 

[FineLinen]

I am following you and your Marvin R. Vincent Universalism sales pitch, but I am not in agreement with it. I believe ole Marvin strains his word studies to manufacture false doctrines. What do you think?

Solo: You must resist and desist discussing subjects that are not allowed on 123 Forums. We are not discussing banned subjects, we are discussing the dogma of total destruction.

You made a statement regarding Dr. Marvin Vincent that cannot be substantiated. You believe "ole Marvin" strains his word studies! Could you give us an example?

Dr. Marvin Vincent N. T. Word Studies

HERE

 

[Solo]

I am following you and your Marvin R. Vincent Universalism sales pitch, but I am not in agreement with it. I believe ole Marvin strains his word studies to manufacture false doctrines. What do you think?

Solo: You must resist and desist discussing subjects that are not allowed on 123 Forums. We are not discussing banned subjects, we are discussing the dogma of total destruction.

You made a statement regarding Dr. Marvin Vincent that cannot be substantiated. You believe "ole Marvin" strains his word studies! Could you give us an example?

Dr. Marvin Vincent N. T. Word Studies

HERE

No thanks. I have the Holy Spirit to assist with my understanding and wisdom concerning the Word of God. Too many false teachers ruin the truth, just as too many cooks spoil the soup.