Hello! And a question.

[NihilisticGentleman]

Hello there my friends! I wanted to ask a quick question that Ive been unsure about for a long time. I do not understand how jesus dying forgives us for our sins. Could someone please explain this for me?

 

[SpagLard]

a quick question

beckons a quick answer.

God sacrificed his only Son to absolve the sins of humanity against God.
Jesus suffered as a human, taking the sins of humanity upon himself,
and returned to God to set an example to follow for all humans.
the example being : "abandon your sinful ways and turn to God solely. "

 

[Adstar]

Hello there my friends! I wanted to ask a quick question that Ive been unsure about for a long time. I do not understand how jesus dying forgives us for our sins. Could someone please explain this for me?

The penalty of sin is death. Actually it is eternal death. But God has a way that atonement can be made for a persons sin and that is by that person accepting that they are a sinner needing forgiveness and accepting the gift of Atonement for their sin provided by Jesus who suffered death and thus paid for the sins of all who would believe Him.

Think of it as getting a fine to large you cannot pay and someone comes along and offers to pay your fine.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[NihilisticGentleman]

Think of it as getting a fine to large you cannot pay and someone comes along and offers to pay your fine.

I want to extend your metaphor but before I do I will add that I am not mocking anyone here. I am atheist but I want to understand why other people think the way they do. I see glaring discrepancies in most religions but I am not too arrogant; I see them and I see people not seeing them and I dont assume you are stupid. I think perhaps I am not seeing something you are. Anyway, as I was saying.

So the problem I find in this metaphor is that the person who made the fine, the person fining you, and the person paying for your fine are all the same person. All you have to do is the little favor of worshiping him. It is the definition of extortion. God is making an offer you cant refuse (or else spend eternity in infinite pain, a bit extreme I think) Like how you have to pay for "protection" because of the mob, protection from the mob itself. So.. yeah, I do not see how this is a benevolent thing to do. Even here on earth we lowly humans understand that we should atleast try to love our children even if they are bad people.

 

[Grazer]

I'm probably going to make things worse but here goes.

Mercy, by its very definition comes at the expense of justice. Mercy says "you deserve punishment but I'm not going to do that I'm going to let you go" In the Christian faith, God exercises his mercy through his justice by taking the punishment on himself

Michael Ramsden puts it better. It's a long video, the first half is his talk, the rest is Q & A but I recommend watching it all.

[video=youtube;IYUCvHoXuH4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYUCvHoXuH4[/video],

 

[SpagLard]

So the problem I find in this metaphor is that the person who made the fine, the person fining you, and the person paying for your fine are all the same person.

So it would seem, but it isn't that simple.
God is Law, the Law was everpresent.
People brought the fine upon themselves, by transgressing the law.

The person who "made" the fine, made it to caution the people against themselves (to warn them of the responsibillity of their free will / choices)

the "person" who payed the fine for everyone does so to set the example:
renounce your transgressions and keep the law.

All you have to do is the little favor of worshiping him. It is the definition of extortion.

worshipping God is not a favor we do God,
it is the logical action to take when one is grateful and acknowledges God.
if you agree with the law , why would you go against it ?

God is making an offer you cant refuse (or else spend eternity in infinite pain, a bit extreme I think) Like how you have to pay for "protection" because of the mob, protection from the mob itself. So.. yeah, I do not see how this is a benevolent thing to do.

The "offer" is refusable, that is what we have free will for.
But what you call an offer, is more "a present" , because even after Christ
died for our sins, people Still have the choice (free will ) to think nothing of it.

the "eternity of eternal pain" is not something God condems people to,
it is more accurately comparable to the infinity of receiving self-inflicted pain, in the form of speeding tickets, crashing into things, hurting fellow road-users
-hurting oneself unnescessarily- .. all because one chooses to remain
unaware/unrespectful of there being a law against speeding.

Even here on earth we lowly humans understand that we should atleast try to love our children even if they are bad people.

As above, so below.

 

[NihilisticGentleman]

I think a deeper issue I have is that I do not see how God being all powerful and all knowing make it all important. There is a logical distinction between fact and opinion. God did not create our universe with physical laws of morality (otherwise it would be as impossible to do wrong as it is impossible to go faster than light) And based on what Ive heard from others and seen in my life god also has a great respect for the concept of logic so it is a fair tool for we humans to use. The universe follows logical rules. No amount of power, not even infinite power, gives any being superiority. Of course he could strike me down, and torture me, and even take away my freewill and force me to agree with him. But none of that actually makes his opinions of morality absolute. If God came down and told me to hate jews (or homosexuals, or blacks, etc) I would not do it. I guess there is not much point in posting this in that while I am open to the possibility of the existence of a god I am not open to the possibility that power will ever equal absolute truth.

 

[Grazer]

that power will ever equal absolute truth.

In terms of whoever has the most power determines what is true?

 

[SpagLard]

The universe follows logical rules.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that the Universe follows the rules,
the Rules are what we (humans) observe as constants in the Universe.
Humans follow the universe and discover patterns.
But without humans to observe the workings and call them "rules"
the universe does not "follow" anything.
The Law of Gravity is something humans observed
the universe does not always abide/follow the laws of gravity as observed by humans. the law is not binding, the laws are observations adapted to fit the universe, not the other way around.

No amount of power, not even infinite power, gives any being superiority.

Superior Morality you mean ?

 

[Sparkey]

You assert your superiority by judging God.
You admit sin when you ask, "How does the death of Jesus pay for our sins?"

Then, instead of considering the replies, you launch your diatribe and speak of your "deeper issues". Why do you change the subject without acknowledging the answers previously given. Your rebellion to Authority is showing.

His opinion about morality is not the issue here. The question, "How does the death of Jesus pay for our sins," implicitly admits guilt. You've all but said that your morality is superior and for that we have no evidence. You challenge the basis of Godly Authority by saying it is power only, not His Goodness. But it is the very life of Jesus that shows His compassion and mercy and goodness. It was the sacrifice of that man that extinguished the debt incurred by disobedience.

Man disobeyed and deserved death.
Jesus obeyed and gave his live for our debt.
We can not ignore the life of the man who was sent by God to show us who our Father in Heaven is.

 

[Shannon H]

I want to extend your metaphor but before I do I will add that I am not mocking anyone here. I am atheist but I want to understand why other people think the way they do. I see glaring discrepancies in most religions but I am not too arrogant; I see them and I see people not seeing them and I dont assume you are stupid. I think perhaps I am not seeing something you are. Anyway, as I was saying.

So the problem I find in this metaphor is that the person who made the fine, the person fining you, and the person paying for your fine are all the same person. All you have to do is the little favor of worshiping him. It is the definition of extortion. God is making an offer you cant refuse (or else spend eternity in infinite pain, a bit extreme I think) Like how you have to pay for "protection" because of the mob, protection from the mob itself. So.. yeah, I do not see how this is a benevolent thing to do. Even here on earth we lowly humans understand that we should atleast try to love our children even if they are bad people.

You are never going to understand this truth, until you humble yourself before God and ask for forgiveness, repent and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Gave his life for yours you are blind and will not see spiritually unless God opens your eyes John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:7 LK 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Deborah13]

NihilisticGentleman;680681]Hello there my friends! I wanted to ask a quick question that Ive been unsure about for a long time. I do not understand how jesus dying forgives us for our sins. Could someone please explain this for me?[/QUOTE]

If I write/create a software program I get to write the rules for how that program works and what it produces.
God is the creator of the universe and everything in it so...He gets to write the rules. God is a just God and He must stick to the rules He made. "God is not a man that He should lie."

God says that to have eternal life and live with Him in His kingdom (His home) everyone must be perfectly righteous, no sinners allowed.
God says that there must be blood shed (the very sustance of life) and death to pay for sin.
Jesus fulfilled these requirments at the cross and much more.
His blood was shed and He died. He took all our sin upon Himself for us and paid the requirement of death.
Then He was raised up that we too may to raised up to eternal life.
When we accept that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour the righteousness part of the deal is fulfilled. We become new creatures in Christ. we are "MADE the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus." Our flesh body is still the same, our mind is a little changed, but that's a process as we mature in knowledge of the Lord, BUT our spirit is brand new, it is one with God's spirit. Jesus, is alive with us in our spirit. It is His rigtheousness that makes us righteous. Not one christian has anything to boast about. "We love God, because He loved us first." He gave us His faith so that we could even accept Jesus and His redemption.
Really you needn't talk to any person about God until you've talked to Him personally. Tell Him what you think and how you feel, about everything. Just hang out with Him. That's why Jesus left the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us. The bible says that we don't need someone else to teach us that we should ask the Holy Spirit.
God loves you right now. He wants you to be His heritage and His reward.
You sound like you'd be a pretty good friend but you'd be an even better brother.

 

[providence]

No amount of power, not even infinite power, gives any being superiority. Of course he could strike me down, and torture me, and even take away my freewill and force me to agree with him.

There's an analogy given that God is the potter and we are the clay, and it's absurd for the clay to think it better than the potter or question why the potter made it so (Isaiah 29:16, Isaiah 45:5-12, and Romans 9:19-29). The only reason the clay can question the potter, sin against Him, and even strike, torture and crucify His Son is that the potter so permitted it (John 19:11) to save them.

 

[Mitspa]

I find it very odd when a non-believer comes to a Christian forum and ask such questions? I liken it to someone going into KFC and asking for a burger? Then being confused or upset because they serve "chicken" ? One must be hungry to eat, "humble" then they may taste a see that the Lord is good
The hardest thing for some to accept and come to God is that HE IS GOD
He changes not, and any man that comes to Him must be changed by Him. Now satan has told a great lie; "that you may be as god, knowing good and evil". The first step any man takes toward God is admitting that they are not , and they submit to His judgment of what is good and what is evil

 

[stovebolts]

Hello there my friends! I wanted to ask a quick question that Ive been unsure about for a long time. I do not understand how jesus dying forgives us for our sins. Could someone please explain this for me?

When I was a young Christian I didn't understand this whole idea of Jesus dieing for me and all either. It just didn't add up. Now then, I'm not going to say that I can give you an acceptable answer, but over the years I've thought about this from many different points of view.

Now then, I could take the scriptural approach and start off with we Christians hold the Bible as our final authority and as such, I could quote scriptures such as Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. or this one; Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. or how about this one? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But without the background, it all just seems so strange and detached from the world we live in doesn't it?

You see, when I was a young Christian I didn't need anyone to die for me. What I needed was a way to live that would make my life better. Face it, being a teenager can be rough, but so can being an adult. Life isn't always fair and there is a lot to navigate in our present day society. So with all that on my shoulders, dieing and death were the furthest thing from my mind. If I can be honest, it didn't make any sense to me why Jesus would die for me and it wasn't important to me either. It was one of those neutral things but honestly, I didn't really care that he died for me and why would I if it didn't make any sense to me.

Now then, and this is just me rambling. But I learn by example. I mean, I watched my parents and I learned what I could from them. I watched my teachers and I even watched a few mentors that really helped me along in life when I really needed it. But those that were close to me were the ones that I could identify with and something in their life resonated with my life.

As I've gotten older and the reality of just how unfair and unjust this world we live in is, and did I mention how fragile our world and relationships can be.. I mean, you can be as happy as a dog with a new bone one day and the next somebody takes that bone away and there isn't anything you can do about it. And what I mean by that is how so many people have lost their jobs and homes etc in the past few years that were honest good hard working people. Or how about broken marriages or maybe even watching your children go through things in their lives that as a parent hurts you deeply? What's my point? Life isn't fair, and it's fragile and I'm sure we can all draw on our own personal lives and validate this claim.

So why did Jesus die? Maybe a better question might be what part of the death of Jesus resonates with you? Is it the part where he was falsely accused? Have you ever lost something precious to you because you were falsely accused? How about being mocked because of the ignorance of somebody else? Ever met that person who didn't know what he was saying but you couldn't convince them otherwise? Or how about getting beat up just because somebody felt threatened by you?

For me, it's about as much of how he died as it is why he died.

You see, in his culture, he was called the son of David. David's Son was named Solomon and in the first time in recorded history we have an account of world peace. Imagine that, world peace. It's something that many long for. They thought that the Christ would bring about world peace like Solomon, but what they forgot is that Solomon abused that peace, and the peace of Solomon came through Military might. Sorry to say it, but that's not true peace and it never will be. You can't force peace by governmental might. It's never worked out and it never will. If you want to know about the Roman Culture, their calling was also for world peace, even by force if need by and they were very good at it. However, as history shows, it didn't last because it wasn't truely peace.

The peace Christ brought was an inner peace. It's a statement that says violence doesn't work and it never has. It's a peace that's content in knowing the truth, but not forcing it on others. It's about living a life that's not of this world and by doing so, we have a paradox of this peace in a place of extreme torment and pain, and rest assured, dieing on a cross was a science the Romans had down pat. It was an ugly and drawn out death.

So what does this have to do with forgiveness? If you know your scriptures, Jesus says "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". If you've ever done something that later you found out was wrong, then you have a conscience about it if your a decent human being. It is in this place that we know God understands our hearts and it's at this time we need his forgivness because if we don't let that wrong go, it binds us and consumes us and if we still hold on to it, it blinds us to all the joy this world has to offer.

Ever see that miserable old person... Christian or not? Ever wonder why they carried such a burdon? It's because they never let it go and got consumed by it. God offers us freedom from this yoke, and all we have to do is come to him.

 

[Carolyn]

So God created the law of gravity. He put a sign at the edge of the Grand Canyon saying: "Do not jump off the cliff". He warns you against trashing your life and causing grief to those who care about you. That is what the moral laws do, too.
So God calls your attention to the sign, you heed it and looking below find California Condors feasting on a mass of flesh and bones. But you still think you know more than God and you jump anyway and miraculously do not die. Then God sends His Son down to haul your bloken body and scrambled brains to a place where it can be restored. You have found out the hard way that God does care about you. The warnings in His moral law are true and He sent His Son to rescue you from the Condors. You can receive God's help or reject it and be eaten by birds. The choice is yours. Those who have received His help are extremely thankful for it because they have found their lives to be better than before. They consider God to be their best friend and they treasure His warning signs.

Pride is at the root of sin. It is thinking that we know better than our Creator. This led to the rebellion of Satan the archangel who led 1/3 of the angels in rebellion against God. Pride is the root cause of rebellion. It exhalts oneself against God and opposes God. Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden to eat the forbidden fruit saying "if you do you will be like God and know both good and evil." The temptation was to be like God. It was a lie and Satan is called the father of lies.

God opposes the proud but gives unmerrited favor to the humble.

So I have a vivid imagation and a sense of humor. But there is a lot of truth in it. You don't pay for protection by worshipping Him. You can't manipulate your Creator. When 10 lepers came to Jesus for healing, He told them to go show themselves to the priest for their "health cirtificate". They were all healed. Only one returned to thank Jesus and worship Him. That one received an extra gift of being made whole. That means his mind and spirit were also healed and he was forgiven of his sins. But Jesus had done what all 10 had previously asked. He had healed all 10 of the lepersy. In the same way, all are offered salvation. Not all accept the offer. But those who are truly thankful for His free gift can't help but worship Him. And he who is forgiven much, loves much. The Leper who had a thankful heart and humbled himself received the biggest blessing.